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Motorhate |
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Motorhate Nearly there...
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G The Voice of Reason
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Motorhate |
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Motorhate Nearly there...
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Posted: 11:14 - 19 May 2016 Post subject: |
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G wrote: | I did not say that, nor did I suggested that.
I rebutted your insinuation that something decided in a court had to absolutely represent the reality of the way a situation happened.
This is definitely not the case, as I proved.
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I wasn't at Hillsborough on the day in question, I guess you weren't either. I wasn't on the inquest jury, nor were you. I think there are people far better qualified than you or I to determine what happened.
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So you're trying to tell me there's been no other crushes like this outside of football?
I'm not aware of any other case in the UK where people have kept on going moving forward in a queue to the point that people were killed.
There may well be some. Do you have some examples of this? |
It should be borne in mind, that the queuing was not a cause of the deaths - it was that there were too many people in the two middle pens of the ground which is where they were funnelled into by the police. There was loads of room on either side of this pen. In answer to your question, that would depend on how far you want to go back.
66 people died at Ibrox in 1971 but I guess they don't count because they're football fans.
A quick sketch on wikipedia in regard to large scale crushes says the following:
August 20, 1988 England Donington Park Fans died during a Guns N' Roses concert at a Monsters of Rock festival where they were crushed to death by the slam-dancing (moshing) crowd. Rolling Stone reported the band members said they stopped playing several times to try to calm fans.[9] Upon exiting the stage, Axl Rose shouted to fans to have a good day and "... don't kill yourselves," but was unaware of the deaths at the time.[9] The head of concert security, present at the scene, wrote a presentation paper about the event for a seminar on mass crowd events. 2 fans died.
January 1, 1997 Hogmanay New Year Celebration Scotland Edinburgh A densely packed crowd of 350,000 gathered in Edinburgh for the annual celebration. Barriers and railings were bent down by crowd pressure. Thirty-four suffered crush and trample injuries, and one was treated for asphyxia. *This event is notable due to the number of crowd injuries and the size of the crowd.
November 15, 2009: Approximately 60 people suffered injuries in the Millennium Point Concert Stampede when a crowd of over 20,000 turned up (only 5,000 had been planned for) at an outdoor area near the Millennium Point complex in Birmingham, UK. As attendees attempted to get closer to the stage, a surge forward resulted in the collapse of crowd control barriers, with some concert-goers trapped beneath them. The remainder of the event was cancelled in the interest of public safety.
October 19, 2011: 2 People killed in nightclub exit crush at Lava Ignite Northampton after tannoy announcements that people would miss their return coaches unless they left immediately. Overcrowding and a fire alarm contributed to a crush on the stairs. The company responsible for the venue Luminar Leisure entered administration shortly after.
I guess they were all stupid too though ____________________ Current - Harley Davidson FXDB Street Bob | Harley Davidson FLTR Road Glide | Harley Davidson Road King
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chris-red |
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chris-red Have you considered a TDM?
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
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Posted: 11:23 - 19 May 2016 Post subject: |
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^^^
Seconded.
Motorhate wrote: | there were too many people in the two middle pens of the ground which is where they were funnelled into by the police |
They failed to direct fans away from the centre pens, and I agree that they should have done, but that's not the same as funnelling them in.
Again with the active voice for the police, but the fans were just passive victims.
Motorhate wrote: | So basically what you're saying is this whole enquiry is flawed - on the basis that it doesn't agree with your mindset? |
I'm saying that I don't completely agree with the conclusions of this latest enquiry regarding the blamelessness of the fans, collectively and individually, on the day and in the years leading up to it.
Before you suggest that I shouldn't make my own mind up because this is all official and that, did you agree with the conclusions of the previous enquiries? ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
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G The Voice of Reason
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Motorhate |
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Motorhate Nearly there...
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Posted: 11:44 - 19 May 2016 Post subject: |
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Rogerborg wrote: | They failed to direct fans away from the centre pens, and I agree that they should have done, but that's not the same as funnelling them in.
Again with the active voice for the police, but the fans were just passive victims. |
That's probably the best description of the fans at Hillsborough. You would assume that the police would be able to direct the fans in an orderly and manner, however, as I've mentioned, there were 200 less police present than there was normally. The kick-off should have been delayed to cope with the bottlenecks that had been created due to the marshalling of fans.
Quote: | I'm saying that I don't completely agree with the conclusions of this latest enquiry regarding the blamelessness of the fans, collectively and individually, on the day and in the years leading up to it. |
In the years leading up to it, I'm with you on that one. Liverpool at Heysel was entirely their fault, for which I think 15 fans were banged up for manslaughter and rightly so too. The ground wasn't fit for purpose and I think a police chief was banged up as well for their handling of the event.
Collective guilt? Well I don't go along with that at all and its pretty obvious that they were screwed over by the police, media and government. The original story was that the Liverpool fans got there too early and spent too much time in the pub, thus it was all the beer and drunk fans that were to blame.(The Sun version). Then there was the story that they got there late, seems there is an element desperate to blame the fans, it didn't matter how. There was a criminal conspiracy to attach blame to the fans rather than the police. That was debunked almost three years ago. That's why we have had new inquests, that's why I think its wrong if you are blaming the fans
Individual guilt? Only the individuals who are guilty (if there are, and of what I don't know) will know that.
Quote: | Before you suggest that I shouldn't make my own mind up because this is all official and that, did you agree with the conclusions of the previous enquiries? |
The initial one yes because the media backed it up (remember how long ago this was). Subsequent ones, I was always sceptical that the old bill were just doing an arse covering exercise. ____________________ Current - Harley Davidson FXDB Street Bob | Harley Davidson FLTR Road Glide | Harley Davidson Road King
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Motorhate |
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Motorhate Nearly there...
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chris-red |
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chris-red Have you considered a TDM?
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Motorhate Nearly there...
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Posted: 12:26 - 19 May 2016 Post subject: |
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chris-red wrote: | I mean in total in and around the ground. I watched the reasonably Bias documentary and a lot of the victims speaking said they went down to the ground in the hopes of getting a ticket/in without.
The crush as from the back which was probably outside the ground at the time no? |
Well, the Hillsborough tribunal found there must, at most, have been a couple of dozen ticketless Liverpool fans. Not my words but the tribunal's words.
To answer your question, and taking an extract from the inquiry, the dialogue between a member of groundstaff and a policeman ...
"Sgt Higgins at another gate, Gate A, radios for the gate to be opened, despite the gateman’s objection, saying if not, “It’ll go, and someone will get killed.”
Permission is given to open Gate A, though this time the crowd is monitored as it rushes in.
At a third gate, Gate B, approximately 200 fans get in when the gate is opened, again against the gateman’s wishes".
Two gates were opened to areas where they shouldn't have been on orders of the police. I really can't see how fans can be blamed for that ____________________ Current - Harley Davidson FXDB Street Bob | Harley Davidson FLTR Road Glide | Harley Davidson Road King
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chris-red |
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chris-red Have you considered a TDM?
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Posted: 12:33 - 19 May 2016 Post subject: |
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Motorhate wrote: |
Well, the Hillsborough tribunal found there must, at most, have been a couple of dozen ticketless Liverpool fans. Not my words but the tribunal's words.
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In the BBC Documentary which was fairly clearly Bias to the fan there was 2 possible 3 different people speaking who went to the ground(none of them alone I might add) ticketless and in the hope of getting in. AMAZING of the 'Couple of dozen' they found so many
Motorhate wrote: |
To answer your question, and taking an extract from the inquiry, the dialogue between a member of groundstaff and a policeman ...
"Sgt Higgins at another gate, Gate A, radios for the gate to be opened, despite the gateman’s objection, saying if not, “It’ll go, and someone will get killed.”
Permission is given to open Gate A, though this time the crowd is monitored as it rushes in.
At a third gate, Gate B, approximately 200 fans get in when the gate is opened, again against the gateman’s wishes".
Two gates were opened to areas where they shouldn't have been on orders of the police. I really can't see how fans can be blamed for that |
Because people were being crushed outside the ground against the walls/fences and turnstiles. People were in trouble outside, hindsight is easy to blame those actions, however had they not there would have been deaths outside, cops reacted in the only way they could to ease the trouble and save people there and then. ____________________ Well, you know what they say. If you want to save the world, you have to push a few old ladies down the stairs.
Skudd:- Perhaps she just thinks you are a window licker and is being nice just in case she becomes another Jill Dando.
WANTED:- Fujinon (Fuji) M42 (Screw on) lenses, let me know if you have anything. |
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
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Posted: 12:39 - 19 May 2016 Post subject: |
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Motorhate wrote: | Well, the Hillsborough tribunal found there must, at most, have been a couple of dozen ticketless Liverpool fans. Not my words but the tribunal's words. |
Can you quote them?
Motorhate wrote: | Collective guilt? Well I don't go along with that at all |
Good job I didn't say collective guilt then.
Exculpating everyone because of the innocence of some, or even most? I can't go along with that at all. ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
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chris-red |
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chris-red Have you considered a TDM?
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Motorhate |
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Motorhate Nearly there...
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Posted: 13:16 - 19 May 2016 Post subject: |
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chris-red wrote: | In the BBC Documentary which was fairly clearly Bias to the fan there was 2 possible 3 different people speaking who went to the ground(none of them alone I might add) ticketless and in the hope of getting in. AMAZING of the 'Couple of dozen' they found so many |
Well the inquiries show that ticketless fans wasn't a significant issue, if you think fans turning up late and a bit pissed was, there would have been a Hillsborough at every first and second division match at that time as probably would be the case now.
Quote: |
Because people were being crushed outside the ground against the walls/fences and turnstiles. People were in trouble outside, hindsight is easy to blame those actions, however had they not been there would have been deaths outside, cops reacted in the only way they could to ease the trouble and save people there and then. |
Well, I refer you to my previous point on that one. Police said that at 2.30pm, 5,700 fans were in a crush trying to get in 7 turnstiles. That's not 5,700 fans all turning up late, that's 5,700 fans who can't get in because there no queues to join - just a rugby scrum. In my view that's piss poor organisation.
Back then, and certainly not at West Ham, that would have happened in any reasonably policed game. I've never witnessed a free-for-all outside a ground due to proper cordens and queue lines being organised by the police. ____________________ Current - Harley Davidson FXDB Street Bob | Harley Davidson FLTR Road Glide | Harley Davidson Road King
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Ste Not Work Safe
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G The Voice of Reason
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G The Voice of Reason
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
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Posted: 15:41 - 19 May 2016 Post subject: |
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Motorhate wrote: | Duckenfield is guilty of contempt of court for the lies he told for years, yet nobody on here is calling for him to be locked up. |
I call for him to be locked up.
Motorhate wrote: | This inquest took over TWO YEARS to conclude. |
It took a team of 21 EU Scientocrats over THREE YEARS to conclude that water doesn't hydrate you.
That's 394% as much inquesting, so no arguing about that.
Motorhate wrote: | So why anyone is questioning the decisions made by those that have listened to two years of evidence and still insist on blaming the fans is a bit baffling to me. |
Because we've read the key evidence in that respect and drawn different conclusions.
Of the panel members, Jones #1, Jones #2 and Bhatt were clearly going to be pro-fan. Scraton and Sissonshands are likely to be pro-fan. Kirkup might have been neutral, Gifford and Tyacke are non-entities who did the filing. Only Leighton was even remotely likely to be pro-rozzer.
I'll be interested to hear his candid views on it, but they likely won't come out until after he's been properly gonged up for signing his name to the required conclusion. ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
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chris-red |
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chris-red Have you considered a TDM?
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 7 years, 342 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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