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Motorhate
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Joined: 02 Aug 2013
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PostPosted: 10:53 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
G wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_miscarriage_of_justice_cases#United_Kingdom
How twelve random members of the public believe something's happened when presented evidence from people highly skilled in manipulating said members of the public doesn't always represent reality. Nor does a situation where, as I understand it, people keep requesting an issue to be looked at until they get the outcome they want.


So basically what you're saying is this whole enquiry is flawed - on the basis that it doesn't agree with your mindset?

Quote:
Fans and people in other situations either have enough free thought to stop moving before a crush develops or their-group think is less, well, stupid.


So you're trying to tell me there's been no other crushes like this outside of football? Rolling Eyes
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G
The Voice of Reason



Joined: 02 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 10:59 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Motorhate wrote:

So basically what you're saying is this whole enquiry is flawed - on the basis that it doesn't agree with your mindset?

I did not say that, nor did I suggested that.
I rebutted your insinuation that something decided in a court had to absolutely represent the reality of the way a situation happened.
This is definitely not the case, as I proved.

Quote:

So you're trying to tell me there's been no other crushes like this outside of football? Rolling Eyes

I'm not aware of any other case in the UK where people have kept on going moving forward in a queue to the point that people were killed.
There may well be some. Do you have some examples of this?
There's certainly similar tribalism in other areas of life - for instance Catholic vs Protestant in Northern Ireland, general 'gang' stuff and so on. However I'm not aware of any cases where people have kept on pushing forwards when there's no space to the point that such serious situations have occurred.
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Motorhate
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PostPosted: 11:14 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
G wrote:
I did not say that, nor did I suggested that.
I rebutted your insinuation that something decided in a court had to absolutely represent the reality of the way a situation happened.
This is definitely not the case, as I proved.


I wasn't at Hillsborough on the day in question, I guess you weren't either. I wasn't on the inquest jury, nor were you. I think there are people far better qualified than you or I to determine what happened.

Quote:

So you're trying to tell me there's been no other crushes like this outside of football? Rolling Eyes
I'm not aware of any other case in the UK where people have kept on going moving forward in a queue to the point that people were killed.
There may well be some. Do you have some examples of this?


It should be borne in mind, that the queuing was not a cause of the deaths - it was that there were too many people in the two middle pens of the ground which is where they were funnelled into by the police. There was loads of room on either side of this pen. In answer to your question, that would depend on how far you want to go back.

66 people died at Ibrox in 1971 but I guess they don't count because they're football fans.

A quick sketch on wikipedia in regard to large scale crushes says the following:

August 20, 1988 England Donington Park Fans died during a Guns N' Roses concert at a Monsters of Rock festival where they were crushed to death by the slam-dancing (moshing) crowd. Rolling Stone reported the band members said they stopped playing several times to try to calm fans.[9] Upon exiting the stage, Axl Rose shouted to fans to have a good day and "... don't kill yourselves," but was unaware of the deaths at the time.[9] The head of concert security, present at the scene, wrote a presentation paper about the event for a seminar on mass crowd events. 2 fans died.

January 1, 1997 Hogmanay New Year Celebration Scotland Edinburgh A densely packed crowd of 350,000 gathered in Edinburgh for the annual celebration. Barriers and railings were bent down by crowd pressure. Thirty-four suffered crush and trample injuries, and one was treated for asphyxia. *This event is notable due to the number of crowd injuries and the size of the crowd.

November 15, 2009: Approximately 60 people suffered injuries in the Millennium Point Concert Stampede when a crowd of over 20,000 turned up (only 5,000 had been planned for) at an outdoor area near the Millennium Point complex in Birmingham, UK. As attendees attempted to get closer to the stage, a surge forward resulted in the collapse of crowd control barriers, with some concert-goers trapped beneath them. The remainder of the event was cancelled in the interest of public safety.

October 19, 2011: 2 People killed in nightclub exit crush at Lava Ignite Northampton after tannoy announcements that people would miss their return coaches unless they left immediately. Overcrowding and a fire alarm contributed to a crush on the stairs. The company responsible for the venue Luminar Leisure entered administration shortly after.

I guess they were all stupid too though Rolling Eyes
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chris-red
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PostPosted: 11:22 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
I CBA to write a long elegant novella so I shall just state what I think.

Police command fucked up.

Stadium Design was awful.

Too many fans arrived without tickets, most fans had the mentality I will get into the ground for kick off causing the crush.

Fans crushed fans, they ARE at least partly to blame.

Booze probably did play a factor, I've been to various sporting events I'm usually half cut, like much of the rest of the crowd this isn't a bad thing and is to be expected. No one can say what would have happened if people were all stone cold sober, I would put money on it wouldn't have been as bad, less pints less pushing.

Police tried to cover it up causing much (righteous) anger.

The report saying fans were totally not to blame is to pacify the scousers as after 20 years the government realised it wasn't going away.

Had the police not attempted a cover up the first report probably would have laid most of the blame with the fuzz and a proportion on the fans. Victims would be placated and it would be not an issue today.

Would be interesting to know the number of Liverpool fans that turned up VS their allotment of tickets.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:23 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
^^^
Seconded.

Motorhate wrote:
there were too many people in the two middle pens of the ground which is where they were funnelled into by the police

They failed to direct fans away from the centre pens, and I agree that they should have done, but that's not the same as funnelling them in.

Again with the active voice for the police, but the fans were just passive victims.


Motorhate wrote:
So basically what you're saying is this whole enquiry is flawed - on the basis that it doesn't agree with your mindset?

I'm saying that I don't completely agree with the conclusions of this latest enquiry regarding the blamelessness of the fans, collectively and individually, on the day and in the years leading up to it.

Before you suggest that I shouldn't make my own mind up because this is all official and that, did you agree with the conclusions of the previous enquiries?
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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 11:35 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well yes, providing another previous example where there was a massive loss of life also occuring.

A 'mosh pit' is a very different situation - it's basically a fight that's a little less violent than an actual fight.
For the most part people are really good at looking out for others; however there's no way I'd take someone relatively more fragile than I into an area where mosh pits are expected. You will get 20 stone blokes chucking each other about with intevtiable consequences.

Yes, people typically are pretty 'stupid' by the end of a night clubbing. They often kill themselves in other ways too trying to get home - far from uncommon.

If we transpose this to other areas of life - if you are riding a bike on your own, and catch up with some other riders, ride 'with them' for a bit and a spirited pace and one has a single vehicle accident in which they die, I believe you can then be partly liable for their death yourself due to the 'group think'.
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Motorhate
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PostPosted: 11:44 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
They failed to direct fans away from the centre pens, and I agree that they should have done, but that's not the same as funnelling them in.

Again with the active voice for the police, but the fans were just passive victims.


That's probably the best description of the fans at Hillsborough. You would assume that the police would be able to direct the fans in an orderly and manner, however, as I've mentioned, there were 200 less police present than there was normally. The kick-off should have been delayed to cope with the bottlenecks that had been created due to the marshalling of fans.


Quote:
I'm saying that I don't completely agree with the conclusions of this latest enquiry regarding the blamelessness of the fans, collectively and individually, on the day and in the years leading up to it.


In the years leading up to it, I'm with you on that one. Liverpool at Heysel was entirely their fault, for which I think 15 fans were banged up for manslaughter and rightly so too. The ground wasn't fit for purpose and I think a police chief was banged up as well for their handling of the event.
Collective guilt? Well I don't go along with that at all and its pretty obvious that they were screwed over by the police, media and government. The original story was that the Liverpool fans got there too early and spent too much time in the pub, thus it was all the beer and drunk fans that were to blame.(The Sun version). Then there was the story that they got there late, seems there is an element desperate to blame the fans, it didn't matter how. There was a criminal conspiracy to attach blame to the fans rather than the police. That was debunked almost three years ago. That's why we have had new inquests, that's why I think its wrong if you are blaming the fans

Individual guilt? Only the individuals who are guilty (if there are, and of what I don't know) will know that.

Quote:
Before you suggest that I shouldn't make my own mind up because this is all official and that, did you agree with the conclusions of the previous enquiries?


The initial one yes because the media backed it up (remember how long ago this was). Subsequent ones, I was always sceptical that the old bill were just doing an arse covering exercise.
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Motorhate
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PostPosted: 12:01 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
chris-red wrote:
Too many fans arrived without tickets, most fans had the mentality I will get into the ground for kick off causing the crush.


The enquiry says otherwise ...

2.6.106 The HSE estimated that on the day of the disaster 1,576 people entered pen 3.
This was approximately double the maximum safe capacity.
61 The HSE found no evidence that this was due to fans without tickets entering the ground. It calculated that the highest number of entrants, either through the turnstiles or Gate C, was 10,124, just 24 over the
designated capacity of the Leppings Lane terrace.62
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chris-red
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PostPosted: 12:06 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Motorhate wrote:
chris-red wrote:
Too many fans arrived without tickets, most fans had the mentality I will get into the ground for kick off causing the crush.


The enquiry says otherwise ...

2.6.106 The HSE estimated that on the day of the disaster 1,576 people entered pen 3.
This was approximately double the maximum safe capacity.
61 The HSE found no evidence that this was due to fans without tickets entering the ground. It calculated that the highest number of entrants, either through the turnstiles or Gate C, was 10,124, just 24 over the
designated capacity of the Leppings Lane terrace.62


I mean in total in and around the ground. I watched the reasonably Bias documentary and a lot of the victims speaking said they went down to the ground in the hopes of getting a ticket/in without.

The crush as from the back which was probably outside the ground at the time no?
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Motorhate
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PostPosted: 12:26 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
chris-red wrote:
I mean in total in and around the ground. I watched the reasonably Bias documentary and a lot of the victims speaking said they went down to the ground in the hopes of getting a ticket/in without.

The crush as from the back which was probably outside the ground at the time no?


Well, the Hillsborough tribunal found there must, at most, have been a couple of dozen ticketless Liverpool fans. Not my words but the tribunal's words.

To answer your question, and taking an extract from the inquiry, the dialogue between a member of groundstaff and a policeman ...

"Sgt Higgins at another gate, Gate A, radios for the gate to be opened, despite the gateman’s objection, saying if not, “It’ll go, and someone will get killed.”
Permission is given to open Gate A, though this time the crowd is monitored as it rushes in.
At a third gate, Gate B, approximately 200 fans get in when the gate is opened, again against the gateman’s wishes".

Two gates were opened to areas where they shouldn't have been on orders of the police. I really can't see how fans can be blamed for that
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chris-red
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PostPosted: 12:33 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Motorhate wrote:

Well, the Hillsborough tribunal found there must, at most, have been a couple of dozen ticketless Liverpool fans. Not my words but the tribunal's words.



In the BBC Documentary which was fairly clearly Bias to the fan there was 2 possible 3 different people speaking who went to the ground(none of them alone I might add) ticketless and in the hope of getting in. AMAZING of the 'Couple of dozen' they found so many Rolling Eyes

Motorhate wrote:

To answer your question, and taking an extract from the inquiry, the dialogue between a member of groundstaff and a policeman ...

"Sgt Higgins at another gate, Gate A, radios for the gate to be opened, despite the gateman’s objection, saying if not, “It’ll go, and someone will get killed.”
Permission is given to open Gate A, though this time the crowd is monitored as it rushes in.
At a third gate, Gate B, approximately 200 fans get in when the gate is opened, again against the gateman’s wishes".

Two gates were opened to areas where they shouldn't have been on orders of the police. I really can't see how fans can be blamed for that


Because people were being crushed outside the ground against the walls/fences and turnstiles. People were in trouble outside, hindsight is easy to blame those actions, however had they not there would have been deaths outside, cops reacted in the only way they could to ease the trouble and save people there and then.
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Skudd:- Perhaps she just thinks you are a window licker and is being nice just in case she becomes another Jill Dando.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:39 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Motorhate wrote:
Well, the Hillsborough tribunal found there must, at most, have been a couple of dozen ticketless Liverpool fans. Not my words but the tribunal's words.

Can you quote them?


Motorhate wrote:
Collective guilt? Well I don't go along with that at all

Good job I didn't say collective guilt then.

Exculpating everyone because of the innocence of some, or even most? I can't go along with that at all.
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chris-red
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PostPosted: 13:13 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:
Motorhate wrote:

So basically what you're saying is this whole enquiry is flawed - on the basis that it doesn't agree with your mindset?


It's flawed because it's not really a proper enquiry, it's a carefully scripted farce based on 14 leading questions to guarantee that absolutely all blame is put on the police and zero on the fans. Which is what the campaigners have been pushing for since the 80's. They would have kept going until they got the answer THEY wanted.

Most sensible people know this is a load of b0llocks, hence why this thread is going round in circles.
We all know the police f4cked up, we all know their cover ups and behaviour was terrible, but to try to pretend the fans behaviour was not at least in the slightest to blame is laughable.


Thumbs Up


Bang on, These enquiries are a bit like goldilocks, maybe in another 15-20 years we'll get one Juuuuuuust Right. Laughing
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Motorhate
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PostPosted: 13:16 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
chris-red wrote:
In the BBC Documentary which was fairly clearly Bias to the fan there was 2 possible 3 different people speaking who went to the ground(none of them alone I might add) ticketless and in the hope of getting in. AMAZING of the 'Couple of dozen' they found so many Rolling Eyes


Well the inquiries show that ticketless fans wasn't a significant issue, if you think fans turning up late and a bit pissed was, there would have been a Hillsborough at every first and second division match at that time as probably would be the case now.

Quote:

Because people were being crushed outside the ground against the walls/fences and turnstiles. People were in trouble outside, hindsight is easy to blame those actions, however had they not been there would have been deaths outside, cops reacted in the only way they could to ease the trouble and save people there and then.


Well, I refer you to my previous point on that one. Police said that at 2.30pm, 5,700 fans were in a crush trying to get in 7 turnstiles. That's not 5,700 fans all turning up late, that's 5,700 fans who can't get in because there no queues to join - just a rugby scrum. In my view that's piss poor organisation.
Back then, and certainly not at West Ham, that would have happened in any reasonably policed game. I've never witnessed a free-for-all outside a ground due to proper cordens and queue lines being organised by the police.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 13:22 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Motorhate wrote:
that's 5,700 fans who can't get in because there no queues to join - just a rugby scrum. In my view that's piss poor organisation.

They didn't have to keep pushing forwards so much that people at the front were crushed to death.

In my view that's piss poor behaviour.
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Motorhate
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PostPosted: 13:38 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
They didn't have to keep pushing forwards so much that people at the front were crushed to death.

In my view that's piss poor behaviour.


Hindsight and all that ...

The bottom line is that it was a series of colossal f**k ups from plod that caused the deaths.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 13:44 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Motorhate wrote:
The bottom line is that it was a series of colossal f**k ups from plod that caused the deaths.

I thought that the deaths were caused by 5,700 fans pushing forwards because there no queues to join - just a rugby scrum?

There were a series of colossal fuck ups from plod but hindsight and all that...
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G
The Voice of Reason



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PostPosted: 13:55 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Motorhate wrote:

The bottom line is that it was a series of colossal f**k ups from plod that caused the deaths.

Just to be clear - you do not believe there is any responsibility from football fans (or other people in the same situation) to stop moving forward when there is no obviously no space to do so?

That I believe is the crux of the matter and where the differences lay.
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Motorhate
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PostPosted: 14:08 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
[quote="G"]
Motorhate wrote:
Just to be clear - you do not believe there is any responsibility from football fans (or other people in the same situation) to stop moving forward when there is no obviously no space to do so?


No, I'm not saying that at all. I'm sure if the fans at the back knew what was going on they would have stopped dead in their tracks. I'm saying it was physically impossible for those in the middle to stop moving forward with such a mass crowd behind you. Those at the very back haven't a clue what's going on at the front.

I’m getting a bit bored with all this now as you’ve all obviously made your minds up and have your opinions which of course you’re 100% entitled to do and I respect that, but getting hung up on the ticketless fans and crowds having to know what was going on in areas where it was impossible to see anything, seems to me bizarre given the scale of police failings before during and after the disaster. Duckenfield is guilty of contempt of court for the lies he told for years, yet nobody on here is calling for him to be locked up. If it were you or I, our feet wouldn’t touch the ground.

This inquest took over TWO YEARS to conclude. It wasn't a two week hatchet job. So why anyone is questioning the decisions made by those that have listened to two years of evidence and still insist on blaming the fans is a bit baffling to me.

South Yorkshire Police were not renowned for their warm, hospitable nature. The miner’s strike showed that. Their subsequent lies and cover-ups proved that as they were guilty of not employing previous successful strategies at Hillsborough (which was used as a venue for semi-finals back in the day).

There’s a good article here which outlines events on the day and the subsequent cover-up. Some good diagrams of how the tragedy unfolded too …

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2016/apr/26/hillsborough-disaster-deadly-mistakes-and-lies-that-lasted-decades
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G
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PostPosted: 14:33 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Going back to what I said previously.

Lets say the people near the front notice they're starting to get too close to the people in front (not touching, just getting close). They stop going forwards.
The people behind them do the same.
And so on.
As happens in the majority of queues in such situations before a 'crush' develops.

How does the crush outside the gates happen if people follow the above common sense?

The only way I can see the crush outside the gates happening is because people decide to keep moving when they're already touching other people in a very cramped situation. If they just stopped at the point they were touching each other, but not squashed up against others, it wouldn't be pleasant for many, but still wouldn't be an issue.

Whether it's people nearer the back of front, at some point people were still moving when there was obviously limited space and carried on doing so.
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Motorhate
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PostPosted: 15:05 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
G wrote:
Going back to what I said previously.

Lets say the people near the front notice they're starting to get too close to the people in front (not touching, just getting close). They stop going forwards.
The people behind them do the same.
And so on.
As happens in the majority of queues in such situations before a 'crush' develops.

How does the crush outside the gates happen if people follow the above common sense?

The only way I can see the crush outside the gates happening is because people decide to keep moving when they're already touching other people in a very cramped situation. If they just stopped at the point they were touching each other, but not squashed up against others, it wouldn't be pleasant for many, but still wouldn't be an issue.

Whether it's people nearer the back of front, at some point people were still moving when there was obviously limited space and carried on doing so.


There's your mistake. There was no "queue" due to the organisation - (or lack of) the police outside the ground. In previous years there had been and indeed outside all football grounds in the upper tiers at the time. Guess what? No deaths.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:41 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Motorhate wrote:
Duckenfield is guilty of contempt of court for the lies he told for years, yet nobody on here is calling for him to be locked up.

I call for him to be locked up.

Motorhate wrote:
This inquest took over TWO YEARS to conclude.

It took a team of 21 EU Scientocrats over THREE YEARS to conclude that water doesn't hydrate you.

That's 394% as much inquesting, so no arguing about that.


Motorhate wrote:
So why anyone is questioning the decisions made by those that have listened to two years of evidence and still insist on blaming the fans is a bit baffling to me.

Because we've read the key evidence in that respect and drawn different conclusions.

Of the panel members, Jones #1, Jones #2 and Bhatt were clearly going to be pro-fan. Scraton and Sissonshands are likely to be pro-fan. Kirkup might have been neutral, Gifford and Tyacke are non-entities who did the filing. Only Leighton was even remotely likely to be pro-rozzer.

I'll be interested to hear his candid views on it, but they likely won't come out until after he's been properly gonged up for signing his name to the required conclusion.
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chris-red
Have you considered a TDM?



Joined: 21 Sep 2005
Karma :
PostPosted: 15:59 - 19 May 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Motorhate wrote:


Well the inquiries show...



And the previous inquiry showed the fans pissed on cops giving mouth to mouth to dead children. Rolling Eyes
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