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Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies?

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Londoner2015
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PostPosted: 08:54 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
Cyclists' lobbies have gained more and more power over the last years, especially in London.

In the capital, the roadworks for the cycle superhighways have been paralising traffic on the embankment for months, and will continue to do so for many more months.

The Oval to Vauxhall segregated cycle lane has eliminated the bus lane - this means giving priority to a private means of transportation, however green, like the bicycle, over public transport like the bus. And let'd not forget that not everyone can or should cycle: grannies, families with babies, people with luggage, etc.

Many councils are introducing 20mph speed limits, even on large A roads, with limited pedestrian crossings, and parking forbidden on both sides; I'm open to listening to the arguments in favour, but I haven't seen any evidence so far.

My question is: is anything being done to challenge the power of the ciclysts' lobbies? This is not just about motorcycles vs pushbikes, it's about cyclists vs everyone else, because most cycle-friendly initiatives are to the detriment of all the other road users (eg grannies travelling by bus).

The London transport watchdog criticised the impact cycle superhigwhays would have on buses ( https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/davehillblog/2014/jul/16/how-badly-will-boris-johnsons-cycling-vision-penalise-bus-users ), but evidently achieved nothing.

The Motorcycle Action Group has recently attended some conference/panel at City Hall, but I very much doubt anything tangible will be coming out of it.

Anything else being done? Are we just to suck it up and give up to the almighty cycle lobby?

PS I posted a question on a cycle forum about how segregated cycle lanes have caused the removal of bus lanes... and I was banned! Talk about a nazi attitude!
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Ste
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PostPosted: 08:58 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Re: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
Londoner2015 wrote:
This is not just about motorcycles vs pushbikes, it's about cyclists vs everyone else, because most cycle-friendly initiatives are to the detriment of all the other road users (eg grannies travelling by bus).

What have you got against segregated cycle lanes that are actually used by cyclists?
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Londoner2015
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PostPosted: 09:02 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Re: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
Ste wrote:
Londoner2015 wrote:
This is not just about motorcycles vs pushbikes, it's about cyclists vs everyone else, because most cycle-friendly initiatives are to the detriment of all the other road users (eg grannies travelling by bus).

What have you got against segregated cycle lanes that are actually used by cyclists?

The fact that they have caused bus lanes to be eliminated (e.g. from Oval to Vauxhall in London), or on Vauxhall bridge southbound. This means buses share the road with other vehicles, ie more congestion for everyone else. The cycle lobby doesn't care about the impact on other traffic - in fact, they do want other traffic to be penalised, but these measures are penalising bus users, too, which seems bonkers to me.

As for the impact on us motorcyclists, cycle lanes cause our lanes to become narrower, making filtering dangerous or impossible.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 09:07 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Re: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
Londoner2015 wrote:
The cycle lobby doesn't care about the impact on other traffic - in fact, they do want other traffic to be penalised, but these measures are penalising bus users, too, which seems bonkers to me.

Oh well.

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lihp
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PostPosted: 09:41 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Re: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
Londoner2015 wrote:
And let'd not forget that not everyone can or should cycle


What about all those people who COULD cycle, who are sat as a single occupant of a car?

Think of the reduction in your oh so terrible congestion if those people used the cycle lanes that were being built.

You're complaining about an infrastructure being provided that supplies quick, free, safe transport throughout a congested city Rolling Eyes
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:53 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
The sun comes out for 5 minutes and suddenly everyone is all "OMFG cycling = oarsum = totes ban everything else 4eva".

Anyway, to expand on MAG's involvement:

MAG wrote:
PRESS RELEASE

Motorcycle Action Group (MAG)

This version: 2016 04 18 Embargo: Immediate

KEY LONDON MAYOR CANDIDATES SHARE MOTORBIKE VIEWS WITH MAG

Britain's leading riders' rights movement, the Motorcycle Action Group (MAG), has secured statements from the two front running candidates in the race to become Mayor of London. Sadiq Khan MP (Labour) and Zac Goldsmith MP (Conservative) shared with the Motorcycle Action Group (MAG) their thoughts and plans for the capital’s hundreds of thousands of qualified motorcycle and scooter riders - and both have expressed their appreciation of the importance of powered two wheelers as part of the London transport mix, promising to work to ensure their needs are taken into account. MAG is including links to their original text. Sadiq Khan's statement link: https://wiki.mag-uk.org/images/a/a6/Sadiq_Khan_MP_2016_03_26.docx has appeared in the organisation's magazine, The Road. Zac Goldsmith's statement, link: https://wiki.mag-uk.org/index.php/File:Zac_Goldsmith_MP_2016_04_18.docx which arrived after publication of the magazine.

MAG’s Chair, Selina Lavender, is very encouraged by their responses. ‘MAG is not party political, we engage with members of all parties with a view to assisting riders in making an informed decision between leading candidates. As either Zac or Sadiq are tipped to win this election, we invited them to outline how they see motorcycles in the context of London Transport policy (as neither had done so prior to our involvement). We’re sharing their statements to enable motorcyclists and scooter riders to make an informed decision about who they’d like as Mayor.’

Selina claims riders haven’t always felt they’ve enjoyed a level playing field with other road users. ‘Hundreds of millions of Pounds have been spent on making cycling safer. All we’re asking for is consideration for our needs too – and recognition of the importance of motorbikes and scooters in our ever more congested city. I’m heartened by the responses of both these front-running candidates. MAG can and will work with the winner. We leave it to the motorcycle and scooter riders of London to vote to decide who that should be.’

ENDS

For more information contact 01926 844064 and central-office@mag-uk.org


I believe the black cabbies are revolting, as they often are. But they're a doomed breed now, out-competed by uber-predators. And I expect many of them don't want to bring themselves to the attention of the State.

Air pollution (actual pollution, not the awesome CO2) gonna getcha. Nanny Brussels, she say no. Tut Tut So it's not so much a case of pushbikes being the best option, just that they may be the only option for London.

If I had to deal with that mess on a daily basis, I suspect I'd be looking at a high-powered electric bicycle (i.e. not cycle-lane legal EAPC) and riding it wherever I liked, however I liked. No plate, no pursuit, no consequences. I believe this is a popular option in New York.
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BTTD
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PostPosted: 10:12 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Re: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
Cycling is cheap, clean, healthy and sometimes fun. In a densely populated, congested and polluted city you favour making more space for polluting, congesting cars and buses.
The answer isn't more room for cars, the answer is more room for people to move away from cars as transport. You won't get that shift until the infrastructure is in place and even then it'll be gradual... which is exactly what's been happening over the past few years. More cyclists.

I wish more people would cycle, it would cut the congestion on my commute. Wink
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Londoner2015
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PostPosted: 10:34 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Re: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
lihp wrote:

What about all those people who COULD cycle, who are sat as a single occupant of a car?

Think of the reduction in your oh so terrible congestion if those people used the cycle lanes that were being built.

You're complaining about an infrastructure being provided that supplies quick, free, safe transport throughout a congested city Rolling Eyes


How many people do you know who commute into central London by car? Between the cost of congestion charge and the cost of parking, it would be cheaper to hire a helicopter!

My point is that normal traffic into central London is already heavily penalised, and rightly so. I am not sure penalising it any further would have much of an effect on traffic, because I suspect that those who drive into central London are those who have no alternative or are insensitive to all the disadvantages of doing so.

I am complaining about the impact of segregated cycle lanes on bus users. No bus lane --> more traffic for non-cyclists, including those bus users who can’t / don’t want to cycle. Getting everyone to cycle is not a feasible option in a city the size of London.
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UnknownStuntm...
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PostPosted: 10:38 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Re: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
Londoner2015 wrote:
I am complaining about the impact of segregated cycle lanes on bus users. No bus lane --> more traffic for non-cyclists, including those bus users who can’t / don’t want to cycle. Getting everyone to cycle is not a feasible option in a city the size of London.

But ... if there's less traffic anyway (congestion charge / parking charges) then there's no need for a separate bus lane.
Quit your bawwing and get on your bike more. Seriously, walk a mile in a man's shoes, and besides the obvious theft issue, you'll have a better understanding of why these lobbyists are so passionate.
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lihp
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PostPosted: 10:39 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Re: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
Londoner2015 wrote:


How many people do you know who commute into central London by car? Between the cost of congestion charge and the cost of parking, it would be cheaper to hire a helicopter!

My point is that normal traffic into central London is already heavily penalised, and rightly so. I am not sure penalising it any further would have much of an effect on traffic, because I suspect that those who drive into central London are those who have no alternative or are insensitive to all the disadvantages of doing so.

I am complaining about the impact of segregated cycle lanes on bus users. No bus lane --> more traffic for non-cyclists, including those bus users who can’t / don’t want to cycle. Getting everyone to cycle is not a feasible option in a city the size of London.


Maybe if you London drivers stopped squashing cyclists with your large vehicles. They wouldn't need segregated space?
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Londoner2015
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PostPosted: 10:41 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Re: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
jnw010 wrote:
Cycling is cheap, clean, healthy and sometimes fun. In a densely populated, congested and polluted city you favour making more space for polluting, congesting cars and buses.



No, I do NOT favour making more space for cars.

I am in favour of public transport and strongly oppose any initiative that is to its detriment, like removing bus lanes.

jnw010 wrote:

The answer isn't more room for cars, the answer is more room for people to move away from cars as transport.
Couldn't agree more. The point is, public transport like buses is part of the solution, not of the problem. It should be incentivised, not penalised. removing bus lanes is a step in the wrong direction.
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instigator.
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PostPosted: 10:43 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Re: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
Londoner2015 wrote:
And let'd not forget that not everyone can or should cycle: grannies, families with babies, people with luggage, etc.


You'd be surprised what can be done on a bicycle. All 3 of those categories of people, cycle regularly in the Netherlands. I live here. So glad I don't live in London anymore. Its so refreshing to live in a city that has changed it's road system entirely (back in the 70's) to make the bicycle the default mode of transport by choice. I see people take passengers on bicycles and the passenger is trailing a suitacase behind them. Perfectly normal. I see parents taking their kids on bicycles, be it in a non-standard bicycle or on a dedicated kids seat. Perfectly normal here. And because everyone does cycle and cycles regularly, older people tend to be a heck of a lot more active (fitter) than those in the UK so it's not just restricted to the young and able.[/url]

Last edited by instigator. on 10:44 - 20 Apr 2016; edited 1 time in total
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lihp
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PostPosted: 10:43 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Re: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
Londoner2015 wrote:

I am in favour of public transport and strongly oppose any initiative that is to its detriment, like removing bus lanes.

Yet the public transport system is often slower than walking due to congestion

Quote:
Couldn't agree more. The point is, public transport like buses is part of the solution, not of the problem. It should be incentivised, not penalised. removing bus lanes is a step in the wrong direction.

Removing private motorised vehicles from the city will also improve public transport.
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Londoner2015
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PostPosted: 10:47 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Re: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
instigator. wrote:

You'd be surprised what can be done on a bicycle. All 3 of those categories of people, cycle regularly in the Netherlands.


And in smaller English cities like Oxford or Cambridge. But how comparable is the Dutch example with London? London has ca. half the population of the entire Netherlands. Distances travelled tend to be considerably longer.
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lihp
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PostPosted: 10:47 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Re: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
Londoner2015 wrote:


Maybe if cyclists stopped undertaking lorries and buses in bends fewer of them would die in a Darwinian way


Even though most accidents are happening at traffic light controlled junctions when all parties are at a near standstill. By drivers who shouldn't even legally be on the road?
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Londoner2015
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PostPosted: 10:57 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Re: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
lihp wrote:

Even though most accidents are happening at traffic light controlled junctions when all parties are at a near standstill. By drivers who shouldn't even legally be on the road?


What do you mean by drivers who shouldn't legally be on the road? I'm afraid I'm not following.

Do you know of any study (not hearsay...) about the main causes of accidents in London? I'd be curious. Something similar was done for motorcycles in the late '70s in the US ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hurt_Report ) but I am not aware of anything similar in the UK.

I do not have any precise hard data. I certainly see lots of stupid behaviours from all types of road users. One thing I notice is that cyclists overtake lorries and buses in bends way more than motorcycles - but that's just my experience. I very much doubt anyone tracks 'dangerous undertaking by road users' in a statistically sound way.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:58 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Re: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
Londoner2015 wrote:
London has ca. half the population of the entire Netherlands.

Netherlands has ca. twice the population density of the UK.

Don't worry, we're working on that.

It'll be interesting to see what happens in the depths of next winter when most cyclopaths sack it off and try and cram into buses and the tube.
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Londoner2015
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PostPosted: 11:02 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Re: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Londoner2015 wrote:
London has ca. half the population of the entire Netherlands.

Netherlands has ca. twice the population density of the UK.

Utterly irrelevant, since we are talking about cycling in urban areas, not in a deserted countryside.

According to wikipedia, London's population density is higher than that of Amsterdam (5,432/km^2 vs 4908/km^2). I suspect the difference may well be greater if you limit the comparison to the more central areas and factor in not just residents but those who commute into the city, too.
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lihp
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PostPosted: 11:04 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Re: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
Londoner2015 wrote:

According to wikipedia, London's population density is higher than that of Amsterdam (5,432/km^2 vs 4908/km^2). I suspect the difference may well be greater if you limit the comparison to the more central areas and factor in not just residents but those who commute into the city, too.


Move out of London if you dislike the commute around London?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:09 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Re: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
Londoner2015 wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
Netherlands has ca. twice the population density of the UK.

Utterly irrelevant, since we are talking about cycling in urban areas, not in a deserted countryside.

I know, I'm just messing wit ja, because this isn't a serious thread. It's just another "why can't everybody else get off the roads?" rant.


lihp wrote:
Move out of London if you dislike the commute around London?

That. The problem is too many people trying to move around too small a space. You're part of that problem. Other options are available.
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Londoner2015
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PostPosted: 11:14 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Re: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
Londoner2015 wrote:
lihp wrote:

Maybe if you London drivers stopped squashing cyclists with your large vehicles. They wouldn't need segregated space?


Maybe if cyclists stopped undertaking lorries and buses in bends fewer of them would die in a Darwinian way


I found two reports on cyclists' collisions and fatalities:
https://content.tfl.gov.uk/pedal-cyclist-fatalities-in-london.pdf

https://content.tfl.gov.uk/analysis-of-police-collision-files-for-pedal-cyclist-fatalities-in-london.pdf

Both mention (respectively on pages 21 and 39) that the most common dynamic is another vehicle turning left across the path of the cyclist. If I understand the reports correctly, this includes cyclists undertaking other vehicles.

I ride a powerful, big, bad, heavy, noisy motorcycle. Yes, I know, shame on me. When I see a lorry, bus etc in a lane next to me, I always stay back. I don't mean that I don't undertake: I also make sure that, if a bend is approaching, I stay behind and never stay in my lane next to that of the lorry (even if in theory I could). And I am in less danger than a cyclist because the noise of my engine makes me easier to spot, plus I have more power to quickly get away from harm's way.

In other words, the two reports seem to confirm that, if more cyclists followed the same banal steps I have just mentioned, fewer of them would die.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 11:15 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Re: Is anything being done to challenge the cycle lobbies? Reply with quote
Londoner2015 wrote:
I am complaining about the impact of segregated cycle lanes on bus users. No bus lane --> more traffic for non-cyclists, including those bus users who can’t / don’t want to cycle. Getting everyone to cycle is not a feasible option in a city the size of London.

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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:25 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Do I hear the sound of aviation engines being warmed up? Thinking
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goto10
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PostPosted: 12:53 - 20 Apr 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
The only irritating thing about the cycle lanes is the fact they're always planned poorly - people will only use the cycle lane if it's efficient and they can make progress.
The junction at Northumberland Avenue and the Embankment sums it up - it used to be two normal lanes but they've taken one of the lanes to become a cycle lane - fine - however, the cycle lane has its own set of lights but they don't take precedence, the 'normal' lane goes first and the cycle lane stays on red. So, predictably, all that happens is that the cyclists pile into the normal lane (which they're entitled to do) and slow down the motorised traffic so only a handful make it through, then the 'normal' lane goes to red and the (now empty) cycle lane goes to green.
An utterly genius piece of road planning.
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