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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 18:46 - 22 Jul 2016    Post subject: Sports Direct: Reply with quote
Is this becomeing the norm in business? anyone here worked for this kind of setup?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 19:00 - 22 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
It's certainly becoming normalised.

The thing is what all the corporates don't seem to realise is that their staff are also consumers.

Dump on the staff and they wonder why nobody has any money.

Somebody will of course say upskill. But upskilling merely reduces the wages of those who currently hold those skills.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 19:06 - 22 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
I worked for the now demised JJB, as warehouse lackey for an agency.

It was worse than that. Thumbs Up
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M.C
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PostPosted: 19:12 - 22 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
The company I work for (not going to name them) have become like this, there's a belief that if people are in fear for their jobs, they work harder etc. Why this doesn't work is a) you have to care about your job to begin with and b) if someone's a dick to you you're not going to do anything extra for them.

A lot of the reason for this sort of thing going on is that people let it happen. People aren't really fussed about being in unions anymore, ignoring it's because of unions they enjoy the current rights they have.

However Mr Simpson has a point: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYXzHjbfMDk Laughing
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 19:22 - 22 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
These companies seek to increase profits by making the British business environment and workplace a worse place to be. Companies who treat their workers well and maintain good worker relations therefore face an effective financial penalty for doing so! This is undesirable, but as their motivation is purely financial, a good solution would be some kind of tax penalty on bad employers.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 20:13 - 22 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
A better one would be if people didn't buy from or choose to work for them.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 20:33 - 22 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
I wonder if individuals these days carry so much debt month to month and have such high living costs its hard to just throw the towel in. I saw an American economist on telly who was saying we now live in a creditocracy which is effectively like bonded labour. People don't get paid enough to live so they have to borrow just to stay afloat which equates to being able to stay in the workforce. This effectively creates a kind of bonded labour situation.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 20:43 - 22 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ribenapigeon wrote:
I wonder if individuals these days carry so much debt month to month and have such high living costs its hard to just throw the towel in. I saw an American economist on telly who was saying we now live in a creditocracy which is effectively like bonded labour. People don't get paid enough to live so they have to borrow just to stay afloat which equates to being able to stay in the workforce. This effectively creates a kind of bonded labour situation.


Um that's kind of the point of the system.
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 20:47 - 22 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Endless supply of cheap labour and they will take the piss, processors do it to farmers, but now demand is out stripping supply, the boot is on the other foot
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 21:00 - 22 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Um that's kind of the point of the system.


I think this economist was suggesting there's almost a collusion between the personal loan industry and employers, the loan companies getting their capital from the markets which is money which could have just gone into the workforce directly through wages.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 21:06 - 22 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ribenapigeon wrote:

I think this economist was suggesting there's almost a collusion between the personal loan industry and employers, the loan companies getting their capital from the markets which is money which could have just gone into the workforce directly through wages.


It's not that. It's just that this is the system.

Fiat money has value because the government demands it in taxes. Therefore you have to go out and work for fiat money to give to the government.

What gives the government power? The law which is backed by force.

Creation of loans is double theft as it dilutes the money supply via inflation and creates a fee and another avenue to take from individuals almost like a tax. If it is almost mandatory to take on debt merely to survive then it's just another tax albeit indirect.

The house wins both ways, the government IS the bank, the bank is the government plus there is only one bank in the UK. The rest are franchises there is one bank because there is one legal and allowed form of fiat money in the UK.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 23:38 - 22 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:


It's not that. It's just that this is the system.

Fiat money has value because the government demands it in taxes. Therefore you have to go out and work for fiat money to give to the government.

What gives the government power? The law which is backed by force.

Creation of loans is double theft as it dilutes the money supply via inflation and creates a fee and another avenue to take from individuals almost like a tax. If it is almost mandatory to take on debt merely to survive then it's just another tax albeit indirect.

The house wins both ways, the government IS the bank, the bank is the government plus there is only one bank in the UK. The rest are franchises there is one bank because there is one legal and allowed form of fiat money in the UK.


Its a bit of a cop out to say "its all just a setup by da man man".
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 23:41 - 22 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ribenapigeon wrote:


Its a bit of a cop out to say "its all just a setup by da man man".


Sure, but most people won't resist it because they have a roof over their heads, food in their fridges and some choices in life.

As such they simply play cognitive dissonance and accept it as upsetting this system may mean the above comforts stop existing.
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Matt B
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PostPosted: 10:30 - 23 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
The thing is what all the corporates don't seem to realise is that their staff are also consumers.


All? Really, all of them? That's a very sweeping statement.

Which large corporation do you work for to have gained this insight?
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 11:57 - 23 Jul 2016    Post subject: Re: Sports Direct: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:
Ribenapigeon wrote:
Is this becomeing the norm in business? anyone here worked for this kind of setup?


Luckily we fall under the wonderful workers rights legislation of the EU.
Awesome aren't they?

A constant supply of cheap labour under free movement, to undercut native low paid workers. Awesome (for corporates).


Working Time Directive? Health and safety improvement?
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kawakid
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PostPosted: 12:11 - 23 Jul 2016    Post subject: Re: Sports Direct: Reply with quote
Quote:


Luckily we fall under the wonderful workers rights legislation of the EU.
Awesome aren't they.



I thought we'd left.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 12:54 - 23 Jul 2016    Post subject: Re: Sports Direct: Reply with quote
Jewlio Rides Again wrote:


Working Time Directive? Health and safety improvement?


Both of which are "seen to be done" exercises rather than actually enforced. As long as you timecards say what they should say, the bosses didn't care what you actually worked. Certainly IME. Thumbs Up
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 13:12 - 23 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Matt B wrote:


All? Really, all of them? That's a very sweeping statement.

Which large corporation do you work for to have gained this insight?



I worked for numerous accountancy firms which did the payroll for lots of companies.

A very common theme was how P11ds were replaced by P9ds (perks and benefits being reduced to nothing). There were also meetings where companies would seek ways to reduce their wage bills.

Two things were quite common

Reducing hours of staff to reduce Class 1 national insurance. Essentially every £1 over £155 a week costs the company an extra 14% in national insurance costs.

Also the charge back administration costs thing which completely circumvents minimum wage.
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Matt B
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PostPosted: 13:25 - 23 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
A very common theme was how P11ds were replaced by P9ds (perks and benefits being reduced to nothing). There were also meetings where companies would seek ways to reduce their wage bills.


Sports Direct issues aside, what is the problem with that?

Reducing benefits and wage bills is the way a company stays afloat during challenging times like the recent recession. Would you rather wages and benefits stayed high until the inevitable collapse of the company? It's a trade off, tighten the purse strings and keep a high percentage of the workforce in a job or run the company into the ground resulting in nobody being employed.

It's very naive to believe that decisions are made without the entire organisation and the future of it's employees taken into account. You cannot have a balanced view having worked for a 3rd party accounting firm.
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Mark_F
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PostPosted: 13:43 - 23 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Matt B wrote:
Itchy wrote:
A very common theme was how P11ds were replaced by P9ds (perks and benefits being reduced to nothing). There were also meetings where companies would seek ways to reduce their wage bills.


Sports Direct issues aside, what is the problem with that?

Reducing benefits and wage bills is the way a company stays afloat during challenging times like the recent recession. Would you rather wages and benefits stayed high until the inevitable collapse of the company? It's a trade off, tighten the purse strings and keep a high percentage of the workforce in a job or run the company into the ground resulting in nobody being employed.

It's very naive to believe that decisions are made without the entire organisation and the future of it's employees taken into account. You cannot have a balanced view having worked for a 3rd party accounting firm.


The problem comes when enough businesses reduce wages and benefits even during good times to increase profits (as happened through part of the noughties, propped up by Blairs stupid tax credits).

A sole company doing it isn't much of a problem for things as a whole, but when it is a large enough percentile of companies affecting a large enough percentile of the workforce, and thus consumer base, then that consumer base shrinks, which inevitably leads to businesses needing to cut further, and shrinking the consumer base ever more (until something happens to shake things up).

It isn't helped by our systemic unemployment either, where people don't really get any choice on whether they stay with a bellend of an employer, instead they rely on luck in getting other employment with some other company that may or may not also be a bellend.

Many companies these days don't give two shits about their employees. Many don't even use many employees of their own any more, and those that do both employ and give a shit have higher costs than those that don't.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 14:01 - 23 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Matt B wrote:
what is the problem with that?

Reducing benefits and wage bills is the way a company stays afloat during challenging times like the recent recession. Would you rather wages and benefits stayed high until the inevitable collapse of the company? It's a trade off, tighten the purse strings and keep a high percentage of the workforce in a job or run the company into the ground resulting in nobody being employed.

It's very naive to believe that decisions are made without the entire organisation and the future of it's employees taken into account. You cannot have a balanced view having worked for a 3rd party accounting firm.



There are lots of problems.

The biggest to consider is that employees are also consumers.

If you harm the income of your employees then you harm the ability of your consumers as well.

While there is cross subsidy and oh they'll make enough money from elsewhere type mentality thinking it is somebody else's problem. What happens if companies do this across the board?

This leads to a downwards spiral. A supermarket starting with the letter T did just this.

They cut their wage bills leading to short term gains, but leading to a fall in medium and longer term profits. So they cut costs even more. This leads to short term gains, but again leads to a medium and longer term fall in profits.

So guess what they do ? Cut costs again.


We've been here before. The old if only we could cut the wage bill we'd be able to make it work mentality (rather than innovating and investing). In the 1950s 100,000s of Pakistani, Indians and Bangladeshi were bought to the UK to work in the textiles industry. They were bought in as cheap labour. It didn't work as the UK textile industry soon collapsed.


Same thing with moving factories and stuff to China, sure for a short time your goods cost less to make. But now where you sell them your consumers having been laid off can't afford to buy them.


^ the underlined bit? The UK as a nation hasn't been able to afford a lot of stuff. It's always been put on tick. This is why there is a gigantic consumer debt mountain.

This is why companies talk about monthly payment the leasing of cars and consumer goods. This was extremely evident in the 1980s where catalogues have £x amount per week for 52 weeks or why Hire purchase, leasing and radio rentals type companies were so common.
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Matt B
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PostPosted: 14:09 - 23 Jul 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy the fact you have never had to make decisions at that level is very evident. You are however, very good at regurgitating stuff from the interwebs Thumbs Up
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