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How average speed cameras work?

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Andy_Pagin
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PostPosted: 10:13 - 05 Jun 2016    Post subject: How average speed cameras work? Reply with quote

Picked this from an article in the Bucks Herald
Quote:
They use the automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) system to record a vehicle’s front number plate at each fixed camera site. As the distance is known between these sites, the average speed can be calculated by dividing this by the time taken to travel between two points.

Seems a little unlikely to me. Confused
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Albigularis
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PostPosted: 10:17 - 05 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Depends on the system. Some are front facing, some are rear facing and some new ones can do both lanes.
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Vracktal
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PostPosted: 10:49 - 05 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Average speed cameras are basically OCR (optical character recognition) devices staged at timed intervals down a road. They trigger once they read a number plate and record the time taken to travel a the set distance between each camera. If the time taken is below the set time it would take for a vehicle to travel the set distance (plus a small margin of error), then it determines a speeding offence has taken place.

This is why I find it wholeheartedly amusing when people spank it down the motorway between average speed cameras, then jam on the brakes down to the limit at each gantry.

It used to be the cameras were fairly simplistic and could be easily fooled. In the early days, each camera was assigned a specific lane only, so to evade them you only had to change lanes. Now the entire gantry is networked so each camera set covers both lanes.

As well as that, they used to only face forward as this allowed them to capture the face of the driver as well. Now, because of motorbikes (probably) they face rearward in some sections, or alternate between frontward and rearward.

They're also equipped with infrared now so they can better read characters at night (which is why the sensors have that glowing red hue at night.)

Despite all these upgrades though, they still have vulnerabilities. The way they're programmed is to only recognise certain fonts and character strings based on license plates in the UK (i.e. they only read the UK number plate font to avoid false captures from things like logos and letterwriting on trucks and vans).

I think the syntax they're programmed for is something like "any string in [licence plate font] where max characters = 7". This means if you're using plates in a nonstandard font like the curly italics ones, the sensor might not always trigger*. Similarly, I don't think they can read euro plates at this time, and i'm still not sure if they can resolve three-line motorbike plates like the ones on old BMWs (which are legal if period-correct!). Additionally, I think they have trouble with small plates as well.

One day i'd love to dissect one of them and find it's operational specs. I'd be curious to know the processing power they have, and the maximum number of plates they can resolve between each gantry simultaneously. Purely for the sake of curiosity, of course...

*I am absolutely not willing to confirm any of this. YMMV.
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Andy_Pagin
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PostPosted: 11:16 - 05 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vracktal wrote:
One day i'd love to dissect one of them and find it's operational specs. I'd be curious to know the processing power they have, and the maximum number of plates they can resolve between each gantry simultaneously.

I suspect they merely record the data as what we used to call a 'batch job', with the batches being processed at a leisurely pace by a remote computer a few seconds or minutes later. Thus there's no limit on how many vehicles can be captured.
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 11:37 - 05 Jun 2016    Post subject: Re: How average speed cameras work? Reply with quote

Andy_Pagin wrote:
Picked this from an article in the Bucks Herald
Quote:
They use the automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) system to record a vehicle’s front number plate at each fixed camera site. As the distance is known between these sites, the average speed can be calculated by dividing this by the time taken to travel between two points.

Seems a little unlikely to me. Confused


Why? Well apart from the front plate, that entirely depends on the direction they are facing. Those blue Trafficmaster cameras you see on the roads. They don't transmit a registration they capture the registration and hash it and send that, all in the camera. The quote (it's taken from Wikipedia) you gave doesn't say the calculation is done in the camera at all.
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iwaldo
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PostPosted: 19:13 - 05 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe it's just me but I've yet to see any rear facing average speed cams in Scotland, hopefully this new set going in on the M8 is front facing too, in any case I just stick to the speed limit in case there is some sneaky hidden cam haha
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 20:25 - 05 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vracktal wrote:
It used to be the cameras were fairly simplistic and could be easily fooled. In the early days, each camera was assigned a specific lane only, so to evade them you only had to change lanes. Now the entire gantry is networked so each camera set covers both lanes.


As I understand it, the original systems were very capable of coping with vehicles changing lanes between cameras, but the UK homologation for them didn't allow them to operate like this. Fixing it was merely a bureaucratic issue.

Vracktal wrote:
I think the syntax they're programmed for is something like "any string in [licence plate font] where max characters = 7". This means if you're using plates in a nonstandard font like the curly italics ones, the sensor might not always trigger*. Similarly, I don't think they can read euro plates at this time, and i'm still not sure if they can resolve three-line motorbike plates like the ones on old BMWs (which are legal if period-correct!). Additionally, I think they have trouble with small plates as well.


I do wonder how they would cope if you painted the back of your vehicle reflective yellow and spread a large number of letters of a particular font randomly over the yellow Whistle

All the best

Katy
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Alpineandy
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PostPosted: 20:30 - 05 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:
I do wonder how they would cope if you painted the back of your vehicle reflective yellow and spread a large number of letters of a particular font randomly over the yellow

My guess is It would be highlighted as an anomaly and a real person would the check the pictures, input the reg number and the system would then process as usual.

My Guess.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 20:35 - 05 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alpineandy wrote:

My guess is It would be highlighted as an anomaly and a real person would the check the pictures, input the reg number and the system would then process as usual.


Not sure it would, as there are probably vast numbers of anomalies already ignored, along with all the vehicles that are recorded but are not speeding.

All the best

Katy
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Alpineandy
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PostPosted: 20:42 - 05 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:

Not sure it would, as there are probably vast numbers of anomalies already ignored, along with all the vehicles that are recorded but are not speeding.

Why would there be a vast number of anomalies?
Reg number plates are quite straight forward, even old style white on black style.
The odd 'personal' reg number (odd spacing) and someone clearly trying to screw the ANPR would be the only reasons I can think of for an anomaly.
Again, My guess.
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 20:51 - 05 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi

Reflections, odd angles they are mounted at, shadows, shadows of mounting bolts, partially obscured plates (from other vehicles), etc. I suspect that the success rate of reading the plates is far less than they would like us to believe, but still high enough to screw over enough people to make them a pain.

Also wonder if having them ignore non UK plates makes them technically illegal by not treating drivers of different nationalities equally Twisted Evil

All the best

Katy
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techathy
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PostPosted: 20:56 - 05 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Allineando wrote:
Why would there be a vast number of anomalies?
Reg number plates are quite straight forward, even old style white on black style.
The odd 'personal' reg number (odd spacing) and someone clearly trying to screw the ANPR would be the only reasons I can think of for an anomaly.
Again, My guess.

I know that a group of astronomers working on defeating atmospheric distortion from ground telescopes. They were helping develop ANPR for average speed cameras due to heat distortion of exhaust gasses. At the time the photograph angle was surprisingly steep and they were using a technique that accepted there was going to be the total loss of an observation set.
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Alpineandy
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PostPosted: 21:18 - 05 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:
Reflections, odd angles they are mounted at, shadows, shadows of mounting bolts, partially obscured plates (from other vehicles), etc. I suspect that the success rate of reading the plates is far less than they would like us to believe, but still high enough to screw over enough people to make them a pain.

Also wonder if having them ignore non UK plates makes them technically illegal by not treating drivers of different nationalities equally Twisted Evil


One of the benefits with digital photography is that shades and shadows can be adjusted out to some degree. If it takes a picture in shade/partial shade then it would automatically adjust the contrast until a number is recognised. It may then go into a folder for human confirmation before being processed but it wouldn't.... sorry, it shouldn't be difficult.
I guess it depends whether it's being done by a contract company or by some brain deads from DLVA.

I thought one of the reasons behind having euro format number plates was supposed to be that cars could be found (and therefore fined) anywhere within the 'union'. Is that not the case?

I can't believe we're still letting in all the supercars around Chelsea that have Arabic script number plates. That really is ridiculous..
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andyscooter
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PostPosted: 21:24 - 05 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kickstart wrote:
Alpineandy wrote:

My guess is It would be highlighted as an anomaly and a real person would the check the pictures, input the reg number and the system would then process as usual.


Not sure it would, as there are probably vast numbers of anomalies already ignored, along with all the vehicles that are recorded but are not speeding.

All the best

Katy


Are you thinking ones that say highway maintenance pheraps

More and more appear now and I'm sure half of it is so they can zoom down the lane that is shut for work
In fact I have a good idea
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 22:03 - 05 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alpineandy wrote:

One of the benefits with digital photography is that shades and shadows can be adjusted out to some degree. If it takes a picture in shade/partial shade then it would automatically adjust the contrast until a number is recognised.


But that all needs to be done automatically on different areas of the photo so it can read the number, and done at the other end of the zone to get the 2 times. Not a bit of careful photo shopping, just something that can be done in a simple manner.

All the best

Katy
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Silver_Fox
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PostPosted: 22:13 - 05 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I laugh in the face of forward facing average cameras on the motorways and pay no attention as I smash it through Laughing
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Kickstart
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PostPosted: 22:21 - 05 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

andyscooter wrote:

Are you thinking ones that say highway maintenance pheraps

More and more appear now and I'm sure half of it is so they can zoom down the lane that is shut for work
In fact I have a good idea


More thinking of something that would just look like several hundred numberplates on the back of the vehicle!

All the best

Katy
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 22:25 - 05 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver_Fox wrote:
I laugh in the face of forward facing average cameras on the motorways and pay no attention as I smash it through Laughing


You bad man Mr. Fox. Kittens the world over are crying at your dastardly deeds.
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Silver_Fox
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PostPosted: 22:40 - 05 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was in a rush to get to the BCF Wales trip to meet some random men in a field Laughing
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mentalboy
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PostPosted: 00:30 - 06 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it's good enough for James....

https://www.007james.com/i/gadgets/aston-martin-db5/revolving-number-plates.jpg
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Aceslock
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PostPosted: 08:16 - 06 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silver_Fox wrote:
I laugh in the face of forward facing average cameras on the motorways and pay no attention as I smash it through Laughing


You rebel you Laughing Laughing Laughing

I do the same when i am making home movies Laughing Laughing Laughing
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Mudshark
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PostPosted: 09:03 - 06 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Vracktal wrote:


One day i'd love to dissect one of them and find it's operational specs. I'd be curious to know the processing power they have, and the maximum number of plates they can resolve between each gantry simultaneously. .


www.speedcheck.co.uk wrote:
Remote video cameras continually monitor traffic as it passes, routinely sending number plate data back to a remote central server. If a vehicle is detected as travelling above the Police threshold between two valid camera locations, images are retrieved and an offence file is created. This offence file will then be viewed by an operator, before any further action is taken.
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Silver_Fox
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PostPosted: 11:54 - 06 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aceslock wrote:

I do the same when i am making home movies Laughing Laughing Laughing



You have speed cameras in your sex life? Laughing
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winz
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PostPosted: 14:05 - 06 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mudshark wrote:
Vracktal wrote:


One day i'd love to dissect one of them and find it's operational specs. I'd be curious to know the processing power they have, and the maximum number of plates they can resolve between each gantry simultaneously. .


www.speedcheck.co.uk wrote:
Remote video cameras continually monitor traffic as it passes, routinely sending number plate data back to a remote central server. If a vehicle is detected as travelling above the Police threshold between two valid camera locations, images are retrieved and an offence file is created. This offence file will then be viewed by an operator, before any further action is taken.


So, for example, if someone wants to make some decent progress on the motorway. They pass 2 cameras and there is someone watching you, they will work out the distance covered and the time to work out an approximate speed, if they're speeding they will issue a ticket? Has this ACTUALLY ever happened before?

If so, I think I might need to sell the Blackbird...
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Mudshark
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PostPosted: 14:26 - 06 Jun 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

my reading is, an operator will review the images if the camera system detects an average speed above the limit in force.
(for front facing cameras the Blackbird will not even be detected)
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