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| To leave ECHR? |
| To leave |
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78% |
[ 32 ] |
| To stay |
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21% |
[ 9 ] |
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| Total Votes : 41 |
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| Author |
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| Val |
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Val
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Joined: 03 Nov 2012
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 Posted: 00:34 - 26 Apr 2016  Post subject: European Convention of Human Rights in or out? |
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What has ECHR ever done for us?
Do you want to leave it as Theresa May wants?
Home Secretary Theresa May has said the UK should quit the European Convention on Human Rights:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-36128318
EDIT: I have not been entirely honest, intentionally do not have put the link to this video to see how good are you guys at Google.
This video explains in a brilliant way everything we will ever need to know for ECHR, it has actually been created by Britain, to say its imposed from Europe is actually the other way around 
https://embed.theguardian.com/embed/video/culture/video/2016/apr/25/patrick-stewart-sketch-what-has-the-echr-ever-done-for-us-video
Having said that aparently no fact or sensible argument can stop our fellow BCFers still to vote to leave
"Foc off" brilliant end of the video
____________________
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Last edited by Val on 19:19 - 26 Apr 2016; edited 3 times in total |
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| Im-a-Ridah |
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Im-a-Ridah
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Posted: 05:48 - 26 Apr 2016  Post subject: Re: European Convention of Human Rights in or out? |
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Out. Theresa is wrong though, can't leave the ECHR and stay in the EU.
I would like a real rights act, one where the rights really are rights. The current acts are just human privilege acts, where you get a vast array of "rights", but only if you do what certain people want, so they are really better described as privileges. I'd also like the rights to be firm rights, not like some kind of Swiss cheese as in the current rights acts.
The current acts don't even give you free speech!
https://womenonthefence.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/Swiss-Cheese.jpg |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 07:48 - 26 Apr 2016 Post subject: |
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May is either deranged or dog-whistling that she's a Brexiter. Submitting to the will of the ECHR is a pre-requisite to being on the Council of Europe, of which even Russia is a member, let alone the EU.
That said, Russia just sodded off the ECHR, and about time too. 
The ECHR is a disaster. It's so vague and there are so many caveats that pretty much every provision has to be tested in Strasbourg - which one might suppose is deliberate. They rule essentially on a whim, giving rights to criminals one day, then withholding them from honest people the next.
For example:
The death penalty is against the law... unless you have a law allowing the death penalty.
Forced labour is against the law... unless you have a law allowing forced labour for prisoners, conscripts, in emergencies, or just as "normal civic obligations". So, you know, don't do it unless you want to do it.
And on and on and on and on until we get to Article Goddamn 8, which shows the whole thing up for the farce that it is. It's worth reading in full.
| ECHR Article 8 wrote: |
Right to respect for private and family life
1. Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.
2. There shall be no interference by a public authority with the exercise of this right ...
... except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic wellbeing of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others. |
Morals? Morals?
Since that allows governments to essentially ignore it, every Article 8 whinge needs to be decided on a case-by-case basis by the judiciary, at huge cost, and with little consistency or precedence to even similar cases.
I would encourage anyone who's in doubt to read the whole thing to verify that this isn't hyperbole. It reads like a stream of consciousness. "Oh, you have this right. But I guess not if this and that or the other. Actually, here's a new article (16) that removes some of the rights from previous ones, I guess we went a bit far there and we can't find the delete key."
It's an utter mess, guarantees nothing and is not fit for any reasonable purpose. The sooner we're shot of it the better.
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ScaredyCat
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skatefreak
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Minty
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Im-a-Ridah
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| Val |
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Val
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Posted: 10:22 - 26 Apr 2016  Post subject: |
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I have to say I have not been entirely honest, intentionally do not have put the link to this video to see how good are you guys at Google.
This video explains in a brilliant way everything we will ever need to know for ECHR, it has actually been created by Britain, to say its imposed from Europe is actually the other way around
https://embed.theguardian.com/embed/video/culture/video/2016/apr/25/patrick-stewart-sketch-what-has-the-echr-ever-done-for-us-video
Means you should have got all the facts before you've voted leave
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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Rogerborg
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| RhynoCZ |
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RhynoCZ
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| Posted: 17:18 - 12 Jun 2016 Post subject: |
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| Val wrote: | What has ECHR ever done for us? |
Well, if your country is a democratic law state with the ''best'' law system in the world (some one here said that), then nothing. It does not add anything new. Should I give you a lecture on how all this works, or am I not going to bother? I chose the latter. 
EDIT: Now, reading the posts here, a bit more thoroughly, I can see your country is not really a ''modern democratic law state'' after all. So, the ECHR did/does quite a lot for you. On the other hand, it did not bring anything new to the Czech law system. I am not saying your ways of doing things are wrong, it all comes down to the people willing to live under a certain jurisdiction. And if UK nationals were happy before the ECHR, and you think you should get rid of it, then be it.
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smegballs
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| RhynoCZ |
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RhynoCZ
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| Posted: 08:05 - 14 Jun 2016 Post subject: |
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Just out of my curiosity, who here have ever read the ECHR? I only ask, as 99% of the content is individuals vs. the government/state. It's not individuals vs. individuals. From what I can read here, not many understand this.
Anyway, as you say Smegballs, a piece of paper can't do a thing. It is our good will that we obey the laws of our countries and it is a good will of our governments, that they obey the international law.
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Rogerborg
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RhynoCZ
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| Posted: 08:23 - 14 Jun 2016 Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: | | RhynoCZ wrote: | Just out of my curiosity, who here have ever read the ECHR? |
Hello.
Lisa needs braces. |
Lazy morning, clicked on the thread and then used the ''End'' key to get straight to the new stuff at the bottom. 
Anywho, reading the Czech version of the ECHR, I don't get where you get the stuff about ''unless you have a law allowing the .....''. That's what made me ask the question at the first place. I'm gonna check the English version as well.
| Quote: | The death penalty is against the law... unless you have a law allowing the death penalty. |
Do you mean this?: P.no. 6 §1 Abolition of the death penalty; in combination with the §2 Death penalty in time of war?
Also, when you use: except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic wellbeing of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
That is pretty much in every single law system on this planet. With out it, how would the system even work? Please tell me, as a law wannabe, I have no plausible scenario, that would actually work.
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 09:20 - 14 Jun 2016 Post subject: |
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| RhynoCZ wrote: | Do you mean this?: P.no. 6 §1 Abolition of the death penalty; in combination with the §2 Death penalty in time of war? |
Exactly.
| Article 2 wrote: | A State may make provision in its law for the death penalty in respect of acts committed in time of war or of imminent threat of war; |
But we've always been at war with East Asia The Terrorists. Say, did you know that all crime ultimately funds The Terrorists? Oh, and criticising your government? Emboldens The Terrorists. Do you know who offers succour to The Terrorists? That group of people who we don't like because they look or speak a bit different.
Unthinkable, you say? Look at the rise of nationalist groups in Europe. "Because war," is literally the argument that Hitler made.
The pointless verbosity also aggravates me:
| Article 2 then wrote: | such penalty shall be applied only in the instances laid down in the law and in accordance with its provisions. |
So, you can pass a law allowing the death penalty, but you can only apply the death penalty according to that law.
It's a completely redundant statement, just padding to try and make it look as though Article 2 doesn't void Article 1 ("The death penalty shall be abolished. No one shall be condemned to such penalty or executed."), which it jolly well does.
| RhynoCZ wrote: | Also, when you use: except such as is in accordance with the law and is necessary in a democratic society in the interests of national security, public safety or the economic wellbeing of the country, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, or for the protection of the rights and freedoms of others.
That is pretty much in every single law system on this planet. With out it, how would the system even work? |
Again, the problem is that the ECHR professes to grant a right, but then offers a laundry list of ways in which a State can withhold it.
Article 8 is particularly poor in that it offers a badly worded right:
| Article 8 wrote: | Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence. |
What does "respect" mean? What actual right is being conveyed? It guarantees nothing, and abrogates responsibility to national governments and courts to decide.
And then it just shreds it anyway by saying that a public authority shall not interfere with the exercise of this right (what "right"?) unless [cut out the verbiage] it wants to.
I mean, really, "morals"? That can mean any thing to any one at any time. I need to monitor all communications in case any of it contains evidence of kitten abuse. If it saves one kitten's whiskers it'll be worth it.
tl;dr version - I'm not against human rights, I'm for them. I'm against poorly worded non-protection of them, and (effectively) legislation by unelected judges.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| smegballs |
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smegballs
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 9 years, 212 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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