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Posted: 23:31 - 15 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Diggs wrote: | I think you choose to underestimate Mr Lennon. Who else has captured the interest of the media and public recently in the manner that he has? I bet you'd vote for him, and if you would, I imagine lots of others would too...
I thought he changed his name to appeal more to the common man than to avoid a brick through the window? If he were at all interested in keeping a low profile he wouldn't have taken the path he has.
The muppets who were arrested recently were members of an illegal organisation somewhere to the right of Genghis Khan, not because they were 'right wing' - Jacob Rees Mogg and my mother-in-law are 'right wing', fundamental difference.
If it something you believe in, what is wrong with getting locked up for it? Getting locked up didn't do Adolf's career much harm... |
In the real world “mr Lennon” was imprisoned within 5 hours and silenced from the media.
But hey, only fascists are right wing eh? ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB World Chat Champion
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB World Chat Champion
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Posted: 09:05 - 16 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Ouch! ____________________ Now - Speed Triple, old ratty GS550, GSXR750M
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Posted: 11:18 - 16 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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There are some crackers in the draft statement, which people are now spotting in the small print, including this gem..
Quote: | “Notwithstanding Article 126, the Joint Committee may, before 1 July 2020, adopt a single decision extending the transition period up to [31 December 20XX].” |
Yes, that really could mean up until 2099. ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
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Posted: 11:18 - 16 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Rees Mogg would be an interesting choice purely for comedy value. he has said that he won't stand, so this mean he probably will...
Having him as PM will reinforce the world's perception of the English class system. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K2k1iRD2f-c ____________________ Now - Speed Triple, old ratty GS550, GSXR750M
Gone (in order of ownership) - Raleigh Runabout, AP50, KH125, GP125, KH250, CBX550, Z400, CB750FII, 250LC, GS550, ZXR750H1, Guzzi Targa, GSX750F, KH250 x2, Bimota SB6R and counting... |
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB |
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Riejufixing |
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Riejufixing World Chat Champion
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Posted: 14:21 - 16 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Riejufixing wrote: | People seem unable to grasp what "a draft document" is, as well as what it relates to. |
The problem as far as I can see is the way most things are worded, it can only be adjusted for the worse, with regards to the UK's side.
It seems to sound OK until you read the small print buried within, when you realise the headline points actually mean nothing of the sort when you see the caveats and the EU have even tighter shackles on us than they currently do.
That's not leaving the EU, which was the side of the vote which won. ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
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chickenstrip Super Spammer
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Posted: 14:37 - 16 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Riejufixing wrote: | People seem unable to grasp what "a draft document" is, as well as what it relates to. |
How much room to change it do you think we have, considering the position of the EU? ____________________ Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
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Riejufixing World Chat Champion
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Posted: 14:48 - 16 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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chickenstrip wrote: | Riejufixing wrote: | People seem unable to grasp what "a draft document" is, as well as what it relates to. |
How much room to change it do you think we have, considering the position of the EU? |
Very little. Mr IDS says there's some question that might be addressed, but will not confirm what, as it may be considered and is private until after (if).
Having started to read this document (I'm quite a way through it), I am beginning to feel that we should take the draft, finalise it, and present it to parliament. I actually hope it would successfully transit parliament. I cannot see anything in the "transitional arrangement", which is what we're talking about, that is a showstopper. There are things less than ideal, but they're time-limited, so I cannot get all that uptight about it. It's better to have this interim agreement (that's if the EU OK it when it's presented to them, which is not guaranteed) and leave on the 29th. than otherwise.
EDIT: The big worry at the moment is the "hard Brexit" people. They are likely to shoot us in the feet with both barrels. There will be such a scare about "no deal" that it's possible that "Article 50" will be postponed, and that will make it so there's more time for the clique of vociferous "Remainers" to actually stop it. I don't want that. I want to leave the EU, with an interim agreement to smooth the way (which will be time limited) and hopefully a trade deal after that (as we wish to have with many other countries in the world, not just the EU).
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chickenstrip Super Spammer
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Posted: 14:55 - 16 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Riejufixing wrote: |
Very little. Mr IDS says there's some question that might be addressed, but will not confirm what, as it may be considered and is private until after (if).
Having started to read this document (I'm quite a way through it), I am beginning to feel that we should take the draft, finalise it, and present it to parliament. I actually hope it would successfully transit parliament. I cannot see anything in the "transitional arrangement" that is a showstopper. There are things less than ideal, but they're time-limited, so I cannot get all that uptight about it. It's better to have this interim agreement (that's if the EU OK it when it's presented to them, which is not guaranteed) and leave on the 29th. than otherwise. |
I think the problem is one of faith. And you would have to have an awful lot of that in them to accept this deal, even as an interim measure, given how they have behaved up till now with their inflexibility. The get-out clauses mean that they could just stymie any further adjustments by us after this is implemented, and I believe they would probably do so. Convince me otherwise? ____________________ Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
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Riejufixing World Chat Champion
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Posted: 15:26 - 16 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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chickenstrip wrote: | I think the problem is one of faith. And you would have to have an awful lot of that in them to accept this deal, even as an interim measure, given how they have behaved up till now with their inflexibility. The get-out clauses mean that they could just stymie any further adjustments by us after this is implemented, and I believe they would probably do so. Convince me otherwise? |
OK here we go. Please don't blow a fuse right away, I'll try and explain a bit. Have you read any of this paper, by the way? It is heavy going, but the only way to get to the reality of what's happening.
The thing is that it's been set up by our negotiators, MPs, lawyers, who have written it jointly with their EU counterparts, and it will be examined in minute detail when complete and before being accepted, which should give some reassurance. Saying, as some do, "Everyone's a liar and nothing is true" is extremely unproductive. This agreement would not give us exactly what we want (or them what they want!), but I think it's an acceptable compromise. However, it only came out yesterday, and there's a lot to look at. Apparently "politico.eu" asked people in London what they thought of it, and it was rubbished - by people who haven't even clapped eyes on it at all! Why did they bother? More propaganda?
So anyway, to continue, yes, they have been inflexible to a large extent, BUT a huge problem has been the reporting of events we've had. The few "hard brexiters" have said things that do not seem to stand up to examination, as have Remainers, who also hate this proposed arrangement very much indeed, as it's a step on the road to our leaving the EU. Some of their claims don't stand up, either... Why, as an aside, would Remainers say "It's unacceptable because it keeps us tied to the EU!" when that's what they want to happen!
The truth is in between.
You say "the get-out clauses mean that they could just stymie any further adjustments by us after this is implemented"; well, yes, once a transitional arrangement is implemented, that's that; we would have agreed and the thing would run its course[1]. However, the *most important thing* is that we would be independent and sovereign, having actually left the EU on March 29th. at 11 p.m. to be precise. That is the very crux of the matter and thing we want. There are ramifications applying straight after Exit Day. That day is the goal, not so much how we get there.
I am not sure what "get-out clauses" there are - can you explain a little?
Let's look at the "vasselage" thing, for instance. People say "Oh, but we won't be able to make our own trade deals! How awful, it won't do!"., etc. In the document, it is explained. We CAN make trade deals during the interim period, but where (and only where) they conflict with "an exclusive EU competence", i.e. existing trade deals, we can't actually engage with them them until after the implementation period, unless the EU says "OK". If there's no conflict fine, we can make AND enter into other trade deals.
Looking at trade deals again, the implementation period, according to the draft agreement, includes the UK in currently-active EU trade zones, which supports our leaving fairly well, which is exactly what we want so as not to have a huge immediate fit and bureauocratic mayhem everywhere.
Anyway, I think I have to go out now. More later.
1) Much is made of "before mid-2020 a one-off decision could be made to extend the interim period until December 20xx", with some media pundits, mostly leavers, saying "That could be 2099". This is another "project fear" scare tactic. It's a draft document. The number can't be put in at the moment. It will be put in when the draft is agreed, and before the document is put up for consideration by the UK and EU countries. It might be, I guess, a year, or two at the very most (the EU don't want this hanging about, either, part of the problem is that they think it gives us advantage! |
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Posted: 15:32 - 16 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Riejufixing wrote: |
Very little. Mr IDS says there's some question that might be addressed, but will not confirm what, as it may be considered and is private until after (if).
Having started to read this document (I'm quite a way through it), I am beginning to feel that we should take the draft, finalise it, and present it to parliament. I actually hope it would successfully transit parliament. I cannot see anything in the "transitional arrangement", which is what we're talking about, that is a showstopper. There are things less than ideal, but they're time-limited, so I cannot get all that uptight about it. It's better to have this interim agreement (that's if the EU OK it when it's presented to them, which is not guaranteed) and leave on the 29th. than otherwise.
EDIT: The big worry at the moment is the "hard Brexit" people. They are likely to shoot us in the feet with both barrels. There will be such a scare about "no deal" that it's possible that "Article 50" will be postponed, and that will make it so there's more time for the clique of vociferous "Remainers" to actually stop it. I don't want that. I want to leave the EU, with an interim agreement to smooth the way (which will be time limited) and hopefully a trade deal after that (as we wish to have with many other countries in the world, not just the EU). |
How about the bit where we're supposed to be leaving the EU, not still tied to it's customs union indefinitely, still tied to their rules and regulations, still tied to the ECHR, still let them have the final say on our fishing, taxation and would have to seek their express permission to conduct our own trade deals?
That's not leaving, that's just re-branding the current setup by calling it Brexit. Cameron tried to re-brand the EU as "A reformed EU", when they sent him packing after his last ditch attempt to get them to relax some of the reasons people are pissed off with the EU.
They're not interested in losing control over us. This deal makes that quite clear. ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
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Posted: 15:38 - 16 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Riejufixing wrote: | Let's look at the "vasselage" thing, for instance. People say "Oh, but we won't be able to make our own trade deals! How awful, it won't do!"., etc. In the document, it is explained. We CAN make trade deals during the interim period, but where (and only where) they conflict with "an exclusive EU competence", i.e. existing trade deals, we can't actually engage with them them until after the implementation period, unless the EU says "OK". If there's no conflict fine, we can make AND enter into other trade deals. |
Or cutting through the bullshit, they have the final say on who we can talk to and about what. We have no redress for opposing their decision.
That's not freedom of EU control, that's just a nicer way of saying they still have control over us. ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
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Posted: 18:08 - 16 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Riejufixing wrote: |
OK here we go. Please don't blow a fuse right away, I'll try and explain a bit. Have you read any of this paper, by the way? It is heavy going, but the only way to get to the reality of what's happening. |
Don't be daft! Of course I haven't read it
I'm going to make an honest and frank admission, something I think few people here would actually be willing to do: there is little chance I would even understand most of it, because:
Quote: | The thing is that it's been set up by our negotiators, MPs, lawyers, who have written it jointly with their EU counterparts |
...who have the necessary qualifications and experience to understand the language they have phrased it in. All I can hope to do is try to get the gist of what it means in practical terms from what I see and hear on the news, as I suspect is the case with the vast majority of people, so I don't think you should be too harsh with us in your obviously exalted position! Your posts regarding what you have read and how you have interpreted it might help with that. But now I have to judge whether or not you have the necessary qualifications to do so accurately!
Btw, I still don't trust the EU. ____________________ Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
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Riejufixing World Chat Champion
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Posted: 19:45 - 16 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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chickenstrip wrote: | All I can hope to do is try to get the gist of what it means in practical terms from what I see and hear on the news, as I suspect is the case with the vast majority of people, so I don't think you should be too harsh with us in your obviously exalted position! Your posts regarding what you have read and how you have interpreted it might help with that. But now I have to judge whether or not you have the necessary qualifications to do so accurately!
Btw, I still don't trust the EU. |
Oi! I am not, unfortunately, in an "exalted position", but I can read, albeit slowly. It's not too bad (the draft), I find it's necessary to read a bit and get aqcuainted with it by degrees. It's not written in legalese, but it is written in an annoying, to me, style.
The news is a HUGE problem. I came back from going out earler listening to R4 in the van, which I don't normally do, and it was actually rather different from Sky's constant oh-ahing and the BBC news. Odd.
The CBI have been emitting squeaks of sort-of satisfaction, which is good. I am most concerned that the conspiracy theorists/denyers/"I read it on the bog wall" people are distorting reality. One big problem is "remainers" pretending to be "leavers", and generally spreading misinformation.
EDIT: Re my position. You should know that I am most certainly pro-exit, which might colour my comments, but I try to be accurate about what's going on. Conspiracy theorist I ain't, though.
Last edited by Riejufixing on 20:13 - 16 Nov 2018; edited 1 time in total |
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M.C Super Spammer
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Posted: 19:54 - 16 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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chickenstrip wrote: | Riejufixing wrote: |
OK here we go. Please don't blow a fuse right away, I'll try and explain a bit. Have you read any of this paper, by the way? It is heavy going, but the only way to get to the reality of what's happening. |
Don't be daft! Of course I haven't read it
I'm going to make an honest and frank admission, something I think few people here would actually be willing to do: there is little chance I would even understand most of it, because:
Quote: | The thing is that it's been set up by our negotiators, MPs, lawyers, who have written it jointly with their EU counterparts |
...who have the necessary qualifications and experience to understand the language they have phrased it in. All I can hope to do is try to get the gist of what it means in practical terms from what I see and hear on the news, as I suspect is the case with the vast majority of people, so I don't think you should be too harsh with us in your obviously exalted position! Your posts regarding what you have read and how you have interpreted it might help with that. But now I have to judge whether or not you have the necessary qualifications to do so accurately!
Btw, I still don't trust the EU. |
From the bits I've seen it seems to be written in fairly simple language. When arry starts talking about insurance stuff then I am completely lost |
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The last post was made 5 years, 133 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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