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M.C
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 Posted: 17:43 - 17 Nov 2018  Post subject: |
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| Riejufixing wrote: |
Remainers hate the deal. Why? Because with the deal, we would be out of the EU on March 29th., |
"Out of the EU"? What, apart from still being in the EU customs union, still having to abide by their rules and regulations, needing their express permission to leave the customs union or negotiate our own trade deals, still having to negotiate fishing quotas in our waters and having to pay them £39,000,000,000 for the privilege?
Other than having no MEP's, no veto and no say in the EU, how exactly would be not be in the EU in anything but name?
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Last edited by - on 17:45 - 17 Nov 2018; edited 1 time in total |
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 18:12 - 17 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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| Riejufixing wrote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | Well, I've read a few analyses now.
I understand that it would make sense not to dump everything cold immediately. My concern is that after the transitional period, the EU would remain completely inflexible, and we'd then be stuck with this as permanently binding. Which unfortunately I think would be the case, going on their past performance. I have no reason to believe otherwise. It is not nearly satisfactory as a permanent agreement. |
Someone on the TV last night was making exactly the same point I've been making.
Remainers hate the deal. Why? Because with the deal, we would be out of the EU on March 29th., and they would have lost.
If they can bad-mouth the deal and make it so that it's not acceptable, it's more likely that the fear factor will be such that we won't leave the EU at all on March 29th.
So, that's why there've been howls from Remainersof "Argh it keeps us close to the UE therefore it;'s rubbish and we must not have it".
Obvious if you care to think about it. Why would they say that, when they want to keep us not just close, but in? Why bad mouth the thing at all? Ah, you say, it's so that Leavers will be scared and won't go for it.
Then the Remainers are likely to keep us in.
So, when you hear someone saying "It's very bad, they are most likely to be a Remainer (although they could be a Leaver who's taken their propaganda to heart). |
Remainers are out of the equation as far as I'm concerned. They lost. They need to either accept that, or do that Roman thing and end it honourably. For some of them, I'd recommend that in any case  Hey, at least it's a European solution for them 
All I see now is this deal, or no deal. The EU are making it plain that they haven't even decided that they will sign this draft off. Which means there's absolutely no chance of anything better for us. None. This or nothing.
So if we are to stick to democratic values, we must either accept this with the very real danger that after the transition period we'll get nothing else, or we just walk.
Any repeat vote with the remain option in it means democracy is over for this country. Any attempt to sit on our hands and say that we'll just stay as we are will mean the same. It's that simple.
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Riejufixing
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| Posted: 19:03 - 17 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip wrote: | All I see now is this deal, or no deal. |
The big problem is that "no deal" could easily turn into "No Brexit".
That's what the fellow up there ^ just cannot get his head around, with all this stupid, *stupid* conspiracy theory rubbish. There is no "staying half in". We leave, or we do not leave. What's so difficult about "The European Communities Act 1972 is repealed on exit day" I cannot guess, but ho hum.
If it looks like "no deal", it is most likely that exit day will not actually happen. If exit day happens, we are out; there is no "in between". Going back to the point about the remainers hating the deal, perhaps you can see that? Instead of being "Remainers", they'd have to be "Rejoiners", and that would be far, far more difficult for them. |
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Riejufixing
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| Posted: 19:12 - 17 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip wrote: | The EU are making it plain that they haven't even decided that they will sign this draft off. Which means there's absolutely no chance of anything better for us. None. This or nothing.
So if we are to stick to democratic values, we must either accept this with the very real danger that after the transition period we'll get nothing else, or we just walk.
Any repeat vote with the remain option in it means democracy is over for this country. Any attempt to sit on our hands and say that we'll just stay as we are will mean the same. It's that simple. |
The EU are likely to take this deal, after all they've been negotiating with us for it. Yes, it is unlikely that there will be anything different on offer.
Remember also that there are three stages, in order, which seems, but isn't, complex:
1) Leaving. A.50 and the EU (Withdrawal) Act, 2018.
2) A transition arrangement (hopefully, this is what's in the news now).
3) A trade deal.
They are all distinct separate steps.
The "backstpo" is what's supposed to happen if there's no trade deal.
Leaving, stage 1, is key to everything.
Now, with "democratic values", we've got a big problem. A minority of people see nothing at all wrong with doing away with them; in fact they'd *love* to do that. Leaging - stage 1 - is not guranteed.
Again, leavers WILL manipulate opinion, even remainer opinion where they can, by saying that "if we have this deal it's bad!". Well, they're right, it will be damn' bad for thgem, because we WILL have left! |
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 19:46 - 17 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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| Riejufixing wrote: |
Now, with "democratic values", we've got a big problem. A minority of people see nothing at all wrong with doing away with them; in fact they'd *love* to do that. |
As long as it remains a minority, we should be ok. I suspect it will become a more vociferous argument for the Leave camp if there is a hint of a remain vote coming back to haunt us.
I wonder what that minority you're referring to want instead of democracy, after this is all settled one way or another. Oligarchy of the corporations?
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| Posted: 23:59 - 17 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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| Riejufixing wrote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | All I see now is this deal, or no deal. |
The big problem is that "no deal" could easily turn into "No Brexit".
That's what the fellow up there ^ just cannot get his head around, with all this stupid, *stupid* conspiracy theory rubbish. There is no "staying half in". We leave, or we do not leave. What's so difficult about "The European Communities Act 1972 is repealed on exit day" I cannot guess, but ho hum.
If it looks like "no deal", it is most likely that exit day will not actually happen. If exit day happens, we are out; there is no "in between". Going back to the point about the remainers hating the deal, perhaps you can see that? Instead of being "Remainers", they'd have to be "Rejoiners", and that would be far, far more difficult for them. |
Leave the EU or remain in the EU. The government will implement what you decide.
Where are you imagining that new addition to the democratic process?
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| Posted: 00:01 - 18 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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| Riejufixing wrote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | The EU are making it plain that they haven't even decided that they will sign this draft off. Which means there's absolutely no chance of anything better for us. None. This or nothing.
So if we are to stick to democratic values, we must either accept this with the very real danger that after the transition period we'll get nothing else, or we just walk.
Any repeat vote with the remain option in it means democracy is over for this country. Any attempt to sit on our hands and say that we'll just stay as we are will mean the same. It's that simple. |
The EU are likely to take this deal, after all they've been negotiating with us for it. Yes, it is unlikely that there will be anything different on offer.
Remember also that there are three stages, in order, which seems, but isn't, complex:
1) Leaving. A.50 and the EU (Withdrawal) Act, 2018.
2) A transition arrangement (hopefully, this is what's in the news now).
3) A trade deal.
They are all distinct separate steps.
The "backstpo" is what's supposed to happen if there's no trade deal.
Leaving, stage 1, is key to everything.
Now, with "democratic values", we've got a big problem. A minority of people see nothing at all wrong with doing away with them; in fact they'd *love* to do that. Leaging - stage 1 - is not guranteed.
Again, leavers WILL manipulate opinion, even remainer opinion where they can, by saying that "if we have this deal it's bad!". Well, they're right, it will be damn' bad for thgem, because we WILL have left! |
Of course the EU would take this deal, it’s written for their benefit, not ours?!
It leaves them with ultimate control over us still.
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Val
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| Posted: 01:26 - 25 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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| Val wrote: | May has cobbled some fudge this evening to be read by all the government tonight.
Ermm....Brexit Deal - if you think you need to read the actual 400 pages deal to know it's much worst that our current EU membership you really need help. Fact.
What now?
- Cabinet backs deal 
- Parliament rejects deal
- Lab calls vote of no confidence, loses
- Markets tank
- Gilt yields rise
- Theresa "the broken promise" May offers referendum on Remain/No deal
UK stays in the EU and recovers the £60 billions losses 2022. 2025 everything is as it was 2015. Almost. Minus the OAPs that voted for this BS 2016.
HTH |
Coughs...I told you so
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Riejufixing
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| Posted: 12:23 - 17 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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| Val wrote: | | Val wrote: | May has cobbled some fudge this evening to be read by all the government tonight.
Ermm....Brexit Deal - if you think you need to read the actual 400 pages deal to know it's much worst that our current EU membership you really need help. Fact.
What now?
- Cabinet backs deal
- Parliament rejects deal
- Lab calls vote of no confidence, loses
- Markets tank
- Gilt yields rise
- Theresa "the broken promise" May offers referendum on Remain/No deal
UK stays in the EU and recovers the £60 billions losses 2022. 2025 everything is as it was 2015. Almost. Minus the OAPs that voted for this BS 2016.
HTH |
Coughs...I told you so |
Told what "lol"? We've only got to the first point above. |
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| Rob Fzs |
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Rob Fzs
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Posted: 13:42 - 17 Dec 2018  Post subject: |
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| Val wrote: | | Val wrote: | May has cobbled some fudge this evening to be read by all the government tonight.
Ermm....Brexit Deal - if you think you need to read the actual 400 pages deal to know it's much worst that our current EU membership you really need help. Fact.
What now?
- Cabinet backs deal
- Parliament rejects deal
- Lab calls vote of no confidence, loses
- Markets tank
- Gilt yields rise
- Theresa "the broken promise" May offers referendum on Remain/No deal
UK stays in the EU and recovers the £60 billions losses 2022. 2025 everything is as it was 2015. Almost. Minus the OAPs that voted for this BS 2016.
HTH |
Coughs...I told you so |
People keep getting older, thats the beauty of it
Do you not think, your idea must be pretty wank if people need to die to try and win ?
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 5 years, 123 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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