Blame if someone is kiled/injured watching at a bike meet?

[Ste]

Interesting discussion about this in IRC so thought it would be interesting on here as well.

As some of you may be aware, back in May someone was killed at the Bassets Pole bike meet. She was stood by a corner which was being used for kneedown, there were people standing in the line of fire watching this happening. A bike crashed, the bike went into her, and she unfortunately she was killed. The biker has been charged with death by dangerous driving.

BBC News story.

Now, is it right to blame him completely, surely she isn't blame free, as she choose to stand there and it doesn't take a genius to work out what could happen. She choose to stand there, knowing the possible risks, and its not rocket science to work out where the bike would go if someone low sided. So is it right to blame the bikers, but for the person who choose to stand there to not get any blame at all? She could have watched from elsewhere, she could have not gone at all. It's not like she was an innocent person just walking along the pavement going about their own business, she was there to watch the knee down stuff. But some people are saying that it is not her fault, and I do not see how that can be. People need to take responsibility for their own actions and whatever the consequences are of them. I am not saying the biker is blame free, as he is not and shouldn't have been doing what he was doing, but he was and she knew that and that was the reason she was there.

So, is it right for her to be blame free, and if it is please explain your reasons.

[McJamweasel]

I think blame is the wrong word to attatch to the woman who was killed. She does bear some responsibility, as you say it was her choice to stand there and she would of known the potential consequences.
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[Nighteyes]

She was innocent in the eyes of the law, standing on a pavement is hardly illegal. The biker has admitted to being somewhat 'naughty' on the first four 'laps' whether he chooses to deny being so in the final and fatal lap or not. So again is he not instantly the guilty party in that respect?

But things are never that black and white, so no, I don't believe she was completely innocent in it, ignorant to the true danger she had put herself in maybe, but ignorance is no excuse at the end of the day. No doubt the biker will just be used as an 'example' by the law enforcement peeps just for doing precisely what the crowd had gathered to see!
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[NickD]

Morally? I'm undecided. Legally, if she was on the pavement she is totally blameless. The biker doesn't stand a chance on this one. Knee down on a public road is something the law doesn't approve of, claiming that you are not fully in control, and in this case they're probably right. If this guy was used to riding like this you've got to cut him a little slack (maybe), but if not, what kind of idiot would ride like that when people are near?
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[Shaun]

Yes it was a bit silly to stand there but as Colin said blame isn't something to put on the woman who died, maybe that word should be used towards the biker who chose to get his knee down on a corner full of pot holes and white lines through the middle of a crowd of hundreds.

[Ste]

Blame is a quite harsh word to use about someone who was killed in an accident, but she isn't blame free, if she hadn't gone to watch then it wouldn't have happened.

She was on the pavement, but she was stood there to watch people doing kneedown, it's not like she was just walking there and got hit, she was there to watch people doing the very thing which killed her. The people standing to watch would have seen him being somewhat naughty on his first four times so it's not like it came out the blue.

Just because something is legally one thing doesn't mean it is right, as yes standing on the pavement she is legally blame free. But she knew what she was watching and surely would have known the risks that go with it (biker falls of > bike slides > bike hits person in path of slide, me) so as illegal as kneedown on the road is she knew what was happening and the possible consequences of standing in the firing line. Not saying the guy is blame free to any degree, but he is not 100% to blame as if she hadn't choosen to stand there to watch she'd not have been killed.

Shaun it could have been doing kneedown on a road covered with oil, but she would have been able to see the pot holes and white lines and the people were stood there to watch people doing kneedown so they were aware of the potential risks.

[tgabber]

It's certainly right to charge the guy. Then a court and a jury can if necessary examine the full facts and decide on his level of responsibility.

As others have said, maybe the woman should have been more aware of the danger she was putting herself in, however legally she was doing nothing wrong, whereas the same cannot be said for the bike rider.
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[Shaun]

People go to watch because its something they are interested in or would like to do, I enjoy watching people do wheelies, if the rider I was watching decided to show off and wheelie straight past me and lost control and hit me it would be his fault. The rider could've played knee down on the roundabout if he wanted to, loads more run off and out of the way a bit more then where he did decide to play, as the rider he is the one who should be asessing the dangers!

[Ste]

We all know that the police and courts will find the biker guilty of death by dangerous riding, but was asking more about peoples own thoughts on the subject.

Surely she was aware of the danger tsgabber, you don't need a degree in physics to work out what could happen so it can't be too much of a suprise if it does happen.

[NickD]

Maybe this is streching it a little (and I'm not claiming that I don't go a little mental from time to time), but if the spectator should share the blame/ responsibility, maybe the other people who go there to ride in a way that encourages people to gather and watch should too.
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[dibbster]

I'd say its got to go 50/50 she knew he was going to do Knee Down round the corner, he knew people were going to be stood on the corner. She shouldn't have stood in a position where she could get hit, he shouldn't have done knee down in an area where he could hit spectators. So six of one half a dozen of the other.
Now if it was on an average right hander on the public highway and not at a bike meet, the rider would be to blame as the person on the pavement would be right to not expect a motorcycle to come round the corner and wipe them out. I suspect though the law will take a dim view of such behavior and he will be parted from his licence for a while.
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[Stu_666]

In this case I would say that she knew the risks standing where she did but its still 100% the biker's fault for not knowing his limits. There's also the possibility that the bike could have hit someone from a fair distance away. Therefore when is the point reached where its unblameworthy (morally) as to where the person is standing?

[Frost]

Its like at a rally event, some people stand in stupid places, if they get run over its their problem. However as this is on the road, the biker riding in the dangerous manner gets the blame.
Regardless of what was or wasnt going on, she was in a public place with no official entry point, supervision, or notification that any motorsport was taking place. she hadnt violated any rules which had been set so if she gets killed technically its not her fault.
For all it matters, she could have been an old granny crossing the road, who was then struck by the bike.

I dont think its right to use the biker as a scapegoat, but he has been taken to court to find out if he has done wrong or not. If he has cause death by dangerous riding then its his fault, if it was an acident then i expect him to get off, and what happend to serve as a warning in future to him and others aboutwhat can happen when looning around.

[McJamweasel]

I think there's some confusion here between moral and legal blame.

Legally, it is 100% the bikers fault. However, the woman has a moral responsibility due to where she was standing and why she was standing there.
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[MarJay]

In all fairness, the woman had no time to move out of the way if she did not know what was going on.

Imagine that she saw the bike coming and only realised that what the rider was doing was dangerous when it was too late.

Also Imagine some small child was hurt, a child which would not appreciate the dangers.

TBH you don't expect to be killed watching someone getting their knee down IMO.
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[Kickstart]

Hi

Legally he is 100% responsible.

Morally she was definatly partly responsible as it is a pretty stupid place to stand (common sense tells you that).

You could argue that her and all those watching should take responsibility for standing their watching and thus encouraging people to play silly buggers.

All the best

Keith
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[Kickstart]

[mazza]

Ah yes. I got into this one when it came around originally.

Bassets Pole is the kind of event that should be banned in that kind of place. Why?...

Because...
Nobody is taking responsibility for everybody's safety.
It's on a public road, still open to normal traffic!!!!
It encourages dangerous stunts by people who are not always able to do it.

What should we do instead?...
Do it privately.
Charge the audience enough to cover the rent of the location, insurance etc.
Assign someone to overlook the safety aspects. And pay them to do it properly.

If people don't want to pay, or can't be arsed to organise it properly, then it'll go on as it has (and as is being done). The next accident only some time away.

Whether this lady was in the wrong place or not, whether the biker was to blame or not etc, etc.... is all peripheral and academic now.

I have no doubt that this accident has left two sets of people (the family of the lady and the biker) deeply disturbed by this horrible accident. The fact that it still goes on in much the same way in different parts of the country completely astounds me!

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see this sort of thing in real life, I'd just like it to be done properly and happy to pay for the priviledge.
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[MarJay]

[veeeffarr]

She was a fully grown woman, she had the mental capacity to understand that she was doing something risky, just like the people at car rallies do. She might have been ignorant and had the "Oh it won't happen to me" approach, but that's still no excuse for assessing her own safety.

But yes, legally it is the riders fault as technically he was driving dangerously, although I didnt know it was illegal to get your knee down on a public road, does that include roundabouts?

[Ste]

Mazza, she was perfectly aware of what was happening and that was the reason she was there. No people doing stunts/ kneedown she'd not have been there, so it's a catch 22 really.

No one organises bike meets, which is why the police have such hassle trying to stop them. No one says to everyone "turn up on sunday and do wheelies" people just turn up if they want and do what they want, under their own free will. People choose to come and watch it sometimes, and they're only there to watch it because there are people doing stunts/ kneedown type things.

The only reason it still goes on is because people choose to do it. No one makes people go to bike meet locations and perform stunts or kneedown, and no one makes people go along to watch it. She was their out of her own free will, so should have to take some responsibility for her actions. If I bought a gun to do target shooting with, if someone chooses to go and stand next to the target, they're partially to blame if they get shot for standing in a daft place. Same as that crash, it doesn't take a genius to work out what would happen if someone crashes yet they choose to accept that risk and stand there.

Mark, the news stories all say that she was there as a spectator so was aware of the risks, if it was some other random person who was just using the pavements and wasn't there to watch the bikes it would be different, but she was and should be held partially responsible for her actions.

[Git]

I hate to say it but I believe the person that died is fault free in every sense, you go to a race track and watch the racing and this maybe expected, a death by an awol motorcycle, but on the road, a death by someone playing silly buggers, showing off, an unfortunate accident for the rider that could of been so easily avoided. There is only one person at fault and to blame as far as I am concerned.

Anyway, it's easy to say well, the woman should not of been there or should have realised the dangers, it is also easy to say the rider should of thought about the procedings if his little games went wrong.

[mazza]

Ste, then it's simply comes down to dangerous driving. Book 'em and fine 'em. It'll soon put a stop to it.
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[tgabber]

The overriding concern of any professional stunt person (not just talking about bike stunts here) is safety, both of themselves and others.

I'm sure many will consider this boring but I believe that anyone that wants to stunt should do it under proper conditions and if they choose not to then have to be prepared to accept the consequences when things go wrong.
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[mazza]