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| Saraya |
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Saraya
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Joined: 11 May 2016
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 Posted: 07:26 - 05 Aug 2016  Post subject: Tool kits and left bends. |
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Morning all. Happy Friday. 
I’ve just noticed that my YBR manual says there’s a tool kit behind one of the fairings. Doesn’t say what’s in it though.
I have no intention of removing the fairing to look, as my engineering skills max out at using a butter knife to rewire a plug (before they invented poxy moulded plugs, reducing my technical prowess to twiddling the fuse bulb on xmas tree lights) – but I’m just curious as to what I’m riding around with. What’s usually in these tool kits?
Secondly, I know that half the forum is currently headed to the BBQ – but is there anybody left that’s any good with ‘paint’ on the PC? It’s a bit embarrassing,  but I’m not as good at taking left bends as I am with rights.
I somehow get it right at junctions, it’s the left bends on twisty roads that I’m being a twat. Occasionally I’m far too close to the centre white line for comfort and can’t work out why I get one direction right but cock up t’other. If anyone has a few minutes to spare, could you ‘paint’ me a twisty road and add the correct line I’m supposed to take? I realise this is probably the most ridiculous request BCF has ever seen – but it really would help me loads! Pretty please, thank you, with a cherry on top. (I have tried searching, but my Google Fu is not strong today.) |
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CaNsA
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tom_e
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Mark_F
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Islander
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Posted: 12:46 - 05 Aug 2016  Post subject: |
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Rough guideline for a left hand bend is to stay out towards the centre of the road as you enter and when the line of the bend starts to open up to straight road again, head across to the left hand side of the road. You'll need to adjust for road conditions and surface conditions. If there's a lot of oncoming traffic then you won't want to be too near the centre.
Get all your braking and gear changing done before you enter the bend. Slow in, slight throttle increase going through, accelerate out. Again, adjust for road and road surface conditions.
https://www.rlmr.co.uk/bikes/pic/Left%20Handers%2002.jpg
https://www.rlmr.co.uk/bikes/pic/lt%20hand%20radius.jpg
You should always be thinking along the lines of "What can I see? What can't I see? What might be around the bend?" |
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Hong Kong Phooey
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Saraya
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| Posted: 19:25 - 05 Aug 2016 Post subject: |
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| Kawasaki Jimbo |
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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Dave70
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Commuter_Tim
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Hong Kong Phooey
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| Posted: 00:08 - 06 Aug 2016 Post subject: |
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Yes, once had to get to the plug caps on a fazer on the way to work. It was after a home service and hadn't seated them properly. I had to buy the toolkit for the CBR as they're normally missing - and needed the c-spanner.
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'81 CG125, '97 FZS600 : '99 CBR600F4, '09 KTM RC8 |
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Saraya
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| Posted: 06:39 - 06 Aug 2016 Post subject: |
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| Quote: | Most folk find turning one way harder than the other. For me it's right turns I tend to struggle more with.
Just out of curiosity, are you left handed?
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No, I’m a rightie. I think maybe for me, the fact that there’s a visible lane of traffic to the right, means I see more of the road and have more of an idea of what’s coming. Left bends seems to be more ‘blind’. Don’t know how well I worded that and if it makes sense. Cruising right though, doesn’t make me tense whereas going left causes me to worry about the hedges in addition to trying to hold a reasonable line.
The above pis have helped me to see where I’m going wrong though – as I’m not cutting across enough.
I do have a tendency to over think things sometimes, but a short ride last night has got me thinking. I have a bad habit (probably from cycling) of riding with 2 fingers on the clutch. I tell myself off and move back to the grip as soon as I notice I’m doing it - but I still keep forgetting and leaving them there. So I think I have less pressure to push down as I turn. So going right, it’s a smooth push down to turn, whereas when going left, there’s a bit less pressure and I’m almost shoving the right grip forward to turn instead of just left hand pressure. Again, not sure I worded that well and apologies for the waffle. But sort of saying that aloud (or rather typing) has given me a mini eureka moment.
Thank you.
| Quote: | Not to worry you, but don't go near wet leaves on top of white road paint, particularely if you are cornering. |
I hear you. I’m also taking Tef’s advice and getting some new tyres before wet weather arrives. To be honest, I’ll probably never set off in rain, but hopefully better tyres will help a bit with slippery leaves. |
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Mark_F
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Saraya
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| Posted: 08:22 - 06 Aug 2016 Post subject: |
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I’ve just had a look on the wiki page for counter steering. It’s left me a little puzzled and wondering if I’m misunderstanding.
In the ‘motorcycle’ section it says:
“To turn, the motorcycle must lean, To lean the motorcycle, press on the handgrip in the direction of the turn" or "Press left – lean left – go left"
This is what I try and do – and what I was sorting of trying to explain in previous post – and how I don’t do that too brilliantly when going left.
But in the ‘how it works’ bit, it says I have to press and steer right before I make the turn left.
I confess to being a bit confused. But shall go and read a bit more on the subject. Thanks. |
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bamt
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Mark_F
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Posted: 08:42 - 06 Aug 2016  Post subject: |
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| Saraya wrote: | I’ve just had a look on the wiki page for counter steering. It’s left me a little puzzled and wondering if I’m misunderstanding.
In the ‘motorcycle’ section it says:
“To turn, the motorcycle must lean, To lean the motorcycle, press on the handgrip in the direction of the turn" or "Press left – lean left – go left"
This is what I try and do – and what I was sorting of trying to explain in previous post – and how I don’t do that too brilliantly when going left.
But in the ‘how it works’ bit, it says I have to press and steer right before I make the turn left.
I confess to being a bit confused. But shall go and read a bit more on the subject. Thanks. |
The best thing to do is find a nice, straight, empty road and have a gentle go (I say gentle as you just want to try weaving given that it's a straight road).
As you're going along at usual speed, gently push on one bar and your bike will start leaning in to that direction (left bar for left...). Your fingers resting on the clutch shouldn't matter for this as you will be using your palm to apply the pressure. Then gently apply pressure on the other bar to straighten up, then get the bike leaning in the other way and so on. You're not aiming to get your knee down here, just slight leans. Weaving like this can be useful on the approach to junctions where someone is waiting to pull out as it can help them see you, so it's worth learning.
Be gentle (better to be overly gentle to start until you get used to it), and don't grip the bars tightly (your fingers should be quite loose). It doesn't take much pressure at all even for a turn. When you've got the idea, you can consciously use it to initiate turns (varying the pressure for how far you want to lean), and the bikes behaviour will feel more natural (as you'll be working with it rather than against it).
I'll add this video which is what helped me: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFm3honeTQo
Last edited by Mark_F on 08:52 - 06 Aug 2016; edited 1 time in total |
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bamt
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| Posted: 08:48 - 06 Aug 2016 Post subject: |
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| Saraya wrote: |
This is what I try and do – and what I was sorting of trying to explain in previous post – and how I don’t do that too brilliantly when going left.
But in the ‘how it works’ bit, it says I have to press and steer right before I make the turn left.
I confess to being a bit confused. But shall go and read a bit more on the subject. Thanks. |
You are probably doing this automatically anyway. At low speed, when the bike is pretty much upright, you do turn the bars to the left to turn left. When you are at speed, and bike is leaning over, then making the bike lean more will tighten the turn, standing it up will make the turn radius bigger. Counter-intuitively, turning the bars the opposite way to to the turn (i.e turning them to the right when you want the bike to turn left) will make the bike lean more and turn faster. It's only a small steering input though (think a cm or two, not several inches) - you aren't wrenching the bars around, more like putting a little bit of forwards pressure on the left hand grip.
Best thing to do is go on a quiet road with a wide, sweeping bend, and when the bike is leaning try a /small/ steering input with no change to throttle to see how it affects it.
Edit: crossposted with Mark_F above. Pretty much what he says, really. |
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grr666
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 13:21 - 06 Aug 2016 Post subject: Re: Tool kits and left bends. |
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| Saraya wrote: | I’ve just had a look on the wiki page for counter steering. It’s left me a little puzzled and wondering if I’m misunderstanding. |
FORGET IT.. Ignore the lot, it is NOT appropriate to where you are at or the problems you 'think' you have!!!
'Counter-steering' is a term coined by an American scientologist, also-ran club racer, & hobby journalist, called Keith Code, who looks a bit like Wild-Bill-Hickock, and set up a 'sports-bike' school with a English GP Hero who's name currently escapes me, to teach Yanks to go round the bend! (as if they needed much encouragement!)
'Code-Counter-Steer' is confusing, because the bloke that has made his fortune selling the damn thing is a scientologist, not a scientist, and himself a little confused, and uses the term 'counter-steer' to describe any apparently perverse effect during turning, not just the contra-bar-loading to initiate a turn he promotes as a cure-all panacea to all american riding foibles!
Actual 'principle' he sells is a 'progression effect', whereby to 'initiate' a turn you apply an opposite force to the handlebars to the one that would turn them to point the way you want to go.
NOTE if used, you don't 'steer' you don't even 'push' the wrong way, you just put a little pressure on the handlebars that way, briefly!
Motorcycles hold themselves upright when moving due to a bit of Newtonian physics that says... 'in the absence of an applied force, a body in motion will remain in that motion'
So as long as nothing bothers 'em they want to stay upright and go in a straight line. Its basic physics, principle of conservation of momentum if you want to get deeper.
Code-Counter-Steer, 'works' in some curious manner, by dint of another little Newtonian reasoning; 'Every Action Has an equal and opposite re-action'....
So, you have bike going in a straight line, and try turn it, say left, the bike 'reacts' and tries to resist that change by steering 'right' to maintain its equilibrium of going in a straight line.
And you have a 'dynamic' situation start to take shape where competing forces are all reacting to each other, with 'lag' between each action coming into play, begging a re-action in response, in turn begging another, in what is known as 'progression effects' as they all work through and effect a 'change' of equilibrium, or balance of forces, as the bike changes from the happy state of going in a straight line, to the slightly less happy state of going round the bend.
Oh-Kay... so; Code-Counter-Steer, is the, lazy dog principle... want the mutt to stop farting in the living room, you don't say, in good Barbera Woodhouse voice, "Squatties!!" ... 'cos he'll just lie there, and look at you as if your mad... (though ours does that anyway! Maybe he knows me too well!) cos its raining out there! So you say "Diner!" and open the back door..... dog leaps up and runs to the kitchen... finds no food on the floor, see's the back door open, so goes out to see if its out there..... and you slam the door behind him! (And he has the last laugh! Cos now you are shut in with the stink whilst he's out in the fresh air, knowing that when he comes in looking soggy and pitiful, having been frauded, you will give him a treat anyway!.... and they call it a dogs-life! But I detract!!)
Code-Counter-Steer then is the same thing (ish) to a motorbike, and when you want to to go left, you 'kid' it you want to go right by applying no more than a small FORCE to the handlebars, that makes it 'think' that's the way you are going to turn, and beg a 'reaction' force, that tries to steer the bike to the left, which is the way you really want it to go.. and half the competing reactive forces in the 'progression' have started to get into line and make the bike go where you want it, for you before you really start.. and you just let'em carry on.
PROBLEM with Code-Counter-Steer is his dire explanation of why it works, which at source, in his riding manuals "Twist of the Wrist" are at best a bit woolly and contradictory... but potted to sound-bites for his Videos, are abysmal, and compounded by repetition error when other folk try and explain and expound the 'principle' it just all goes horribly horribly WRONG....
For a New rider, its pretty much irrelevant and wont help any; for a new Euro rider, where we tend to do our learning on bikes some-what lighter than the Yanks Code has made his fortune off, its potentially hazardous.
Lightweight bikes usually have little enough self stability to start with, they don't 'need' to be fooled to initiate a turn and make the weight start working for, rather than against you, or working any faster.
By the time you have even thought to apply any 'conscious' rather than sub-concious or simply reflex, counter-bar-loading.... the bit of 'Code-Counter-Steer'the practices fans are actually utilising.... bike will have gone where you want anyway!
So trying to apply a 'concious' counter-pressure to bar is as likely to fuck things up half way through the natural process as help, and actually trying to physically 'move' the bars the wrong way, almost certainly WILL!!!!
And for a rider already prone to 'over-thinking'?!?!?!?!?!?
No... just NO, no, no, no fucking Nooooooooooooooooooooooo!
Its just something else for you to over-think about and make yourself more problems than you solve!
Just forget you ever heard of it, and do what you been doing! - You're going round the bends ent'cha?
| Saraya wrote: | It’s a bit embarrassing, but I’m not as good at taking left bends as I am with rights. |
Not at all embarrassing, most people have a preference, and an awful lot of them markedly so, and it's more usually Rights they favour here in the UK, due to riding on the left, and having more room and sight through a right hander.
Entirely 'natural' and NOT a 'real' problem.
| Saraya wrote: | If anyone has a few minutes to spare, could you ‘paint’ me a twisty road and add the correct line I’m supposed to take? |
No... and I'm going to suggest you ignore those already offered and any that may follow.
As Code-Counter-Steer, its another bit of 'chaff' that will do more to confuse you, and little to help.
More Code-isms, in searching for the 'perfect line', which even on a race-track are seldom much help, even less so in an actual race round one!
Small aside; in racing the objective is to get round the track faster than the next chap.. which is NOT quite the same thing as getting round the track as fast as you can.
An anomaly demonstrated by the disparity between GP 'Qualifying times' when they are racing solely against the clock in a 'time trial', and the actual 'race' where they are racing against other riders and getting tangled in 'traffic' or deliberately tangling the traffic riding not to get round as quick as they can... but stop the bloke behind getting past'em!
Lots or elevated theory about cornering 'lines' is bandied about, and plenty of debate about 'hanging off' or peg-loading, and riding to the event horizon, and shit like that..... which is all very interesting, but again, for YOU here and now pretty much irrelevant and more to grind through in the fret-factory, and let you over-think about.
MY ADVICE!!!! You have already had... Stop Bludy Thinking so much.... and remember your little 'skid'? What did I tell you?
DON'T RUSH YOUR BENDS! Dont turn until you have to!
Left or Right, road, track or dirt, principle is fundamental. DON'T turn before you have to!
It is THE most basic and most common 'error' in cornering any rider or driver makes; and one that even the most experienced and wide-read on cornering principle and 'advanced riding' frequently fail on.
KISS ME! Keep-It-Simple Stupid! - Don't rush your bends!
Moderate your aproach. Be patient. Make time and space INFRONT.. stuff the few inchs to either side, for now, and whether it'd be better to 'kerb' or 'edge'... you REALLY dont need to be that precise or concerned about it, or worse let it complicate matters for you just now.
That little bike WILL get to the corner eventually, and it WILL go around it, and its nimble enough to change line on a whim if you need or want it to, and NO-ONE is marking you for how tidy you make it....
Back to the track... I was lucky enough to watch a young Wayne Gardner race 250's & 350's in the Transam Challenge series at Donnington circa '85. He went on to take a world title for Honda on the 'evil' 500's of that era, but is best remembered for the "Wayne Gardner Rodeo Show" that was a sequence in the World-of-Sports opening credits, See you-tube; its quite spectacular! With him leaping from once side to the other of a bucking 500GP bike after a 'high-side'! But he was far from 'tidy' even as a privateer on the 250's! Up round Coppice, which is a 'bit' tricky, compound curve, three or more 'bends' in one, blinded on the exit by the slope, he was all over the bludy shop! Geez, the chap looked like he didn't have a clue, and was making it up as he went along! ISTR he later admitted he was!
But that's the point; even at THAT level of expertise, there comes a point where the theory goes out the window, and what matters is just what works!
More previous advice, stop thinking start bludy riding!
BUT, after patience and resisting the urge to do too much, too soon and try riding your bend before you reach it...
In slow, out fast.
Go in deep, resist that 'urge' to start turning as soon as you see a bend; keep the bike upright as long as you can... remember they like being upright and going in a straight line, and are about as stable as they ever are when doing so; so hold on to that stability for as long as you can.
IF you have to do anything to prepare for the bend, its brake... and THAT is best done in that straight line you are extending as deep into the corner as you can.
THEN, when you HAVE to turn, you'll be in it! You'll have the best view of where it's going, and having made time and space to get there, be best set to choose where to point the bike next!
And you can make that turn 'short'. Minimse the time and distance the bike is banked over and in a state of forced balance it doesn't so much like, with least stability.
Just like your junction skid; shorter you make the turn, less space and time there is for anything else to de-stabilise you, like a change in road surface or anything.
Making the turn as short and tight and positive as you can, stretching the straight 'in' not rushing the bend, and once in and turned, getting it up and pointing at the next one, straight away; you are going to get it to go from one straight line to another with least 'fuss' and least chance you will have to make any other 'change' to the balance of forces in play to correct anything, during that 'in balance' period, or worse, be prompted to make any unnecessary de-stabilising changes to it, 'over-thinking' it all!
You are getting it at T-Junctions I suspect simply because that give way line is giving you that target to keep it straight till, and encouraging you t to take a wide lazy line, but even there, particularly on right handers, you can often go a good bikes length or more across the traffic lane from the right, before you need to turn, and likewise of lefts, you DON'T have to cut the corner and apex at the kerb.. you can go half a bikes length into the cross-lane before turning and make it short and swift.and avoid the crap near the gutter.
| Saraya wrote: | I’ve just noticed that my YBR manual says there’s a tool kit behind one of the fairings. Doesn’t say what’s in it though. |
So go look!
Its not just there for impromptu road-side repairs, its there for basic user maintenence!
Your bike needs some!
Remember? CBT, pre-ride checks and all that shit!
Its your bike, YOU should check the tyres and the chain and the brakes before you use it! And use the tools behind the side-panel to do so.
Read the book, it will tell you all you need to know and do... and it is as much a part of biking as riding the damn things.
Go get mucky.... you can pay a dealer to do all the dirty bits for you if you really want, but at £50 an hour it will get rather expensive rather quickly, and we never really know what they have done, or if they have done it right, no matter what they print on the receipt!
Its called user maintenance for a reason... user should do it! For their own peace of mind, as well as their wallets.
Do beware it can get addictive, and when you run out of things that need twiddling there can be an impulse to acquire something that needs a lot of it.... we call them 'project bikes' at which point the 'riding' side of things can take a bit of a back seat... but still... its ALL part of the fun, but the satisfaction of doing it yourself and knowing the jobs done, and done well, invaluable.
You don't have any plugs to wire any more, so give it a go!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| Dave70 |
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Dave70
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| Posted: 14:58 - 06 Aug 2016 Post subject: |
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Jesus muthafukkin Christ! 
____________________
There ain't no devil, there's just god when he's drunk.
2012: R125 killed by white van. 2016 R125 killed by 30,000 miles of redline. Current: 2016 Kawasaki ER6f. |
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Hong Kong Phooey
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
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| Posted: 16:36 - 06 Aug 2016 Post subject: |
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| Hong Kong Phooey wrote: | Some good advice though, must resist project bike... |
Its hard.... I pulled the Seven-Fifty to bits and gave it an overhaul, after the little yammie was nicked, three years ago now...... it only needed a new pair of tyres for its MOT 
"Oh! That looks a little bit rusty.... I'll best 'just' nib it back and touch it up....." And the NEXT thing I knew I had a ground up renovation!
After that went back together, Snowie kept me out of too much trouble asking me to look at things on her bludi-guzzi for a while....
Damnably boring Honda, however, seems to take much glee in avoiding spanners; It took until test time came around again for the new C&S set it had at overhaul to demand 'bedding in' tension, and hasn't wanted another since!
I am forced, FORCED! I tell you to the resort of attacking CB125TD petrol tanks with a rotary wire and a rattle can!
Mind you.... that is in part to get the damn crap out of the way, so I can have another crack at my old Montesa..... I think its due another one.... I've only overhauled it about twenty times in the last thirty years!
Well, you SEE the carburettor was a bit gummed......... And when I took it off I spotted a little rust on the engine stays.... and then I thought that the paint on the barel was looking a little scabby, and W-E-L-L I found these Betor Air-shocks on e-bay NOS, and I thought "Be a pity to put such shiney bits on to show up the rest...... And has any-one had any good experience with these Feux-Chrome kits on a battery charger?
Though the big dilemah is whether, 'while its in bits'..... (yet again!)... I should repaint the frame Smoothrite Red, that its been annually laggered in every year since 1987.... or return it to the original, slightly darker, but chip-prone factory red..... And if I do THAT... does it beg getting a bit precious about the original show-room 'standard' and removing such useful mods as my competition-plate 'cubby' to store fags and drinks 'on course'.....
ONE 'project bike' leads to another, and another, and so on, and the more jobs you find and do... so the more project bikes you seem to acquire along the way!!!!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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| Saraya |
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Saraya
Spanner Monkey
Joined: 11 May 2016
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Posted: 18:53 - 06 Aug 2016  Post subject: |
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All replies are very much appreciated. However, I think this counter steering malarkey might be a bit above my skill set for the time being. I might revisit it when I don’t have to keep slowing to tortoise speed to get round left bends. The videos you guys posted made more sense than the wiki page though. Though blondie with the funny beard is a bit… I’m not even sure how to describe him!
| Quote: | No... just NO, no, no, no fucking Nooooooooooooooooooooooo! |
*hands Tef a beer* I won’t. I promise!
Mwah!
| Quote: | Keep-It-Simple Stupid! |
Oh. Ok!
Tef – As always, I’m grateful for all advice. I just hope you didn’t get a clip round the ear from your Snowy for spending too much time at the poota.
| Quote: | it is as much a part of biking as riding the damn things……user should do it! For their own peace of mind, as well as their wallets…. You don't have any plugs to wire any more, so give it a go! |
I did have a look for a YBR Haynes manual. But they say they are for 2005-2013 models. I know the 2016 exterior of the bike looks different. (I actually think the older models look nicer. Not so keen on the pointy black bit on my new one.) Do you reckon they’d be the same underneath?
Also Tef, you mentioned before about replacing my tyres - which I’m going to do. What brands should I be looking for?
| Quote: | Jesus muthafukkin Christ! |
| Quote: | so here's 6 more pages to take onboard. |
I’m an avid reader book worm. I love a big one. Tef gives good.
| Quote: | after the little yammie was nicked, three years ago now |
Oh.  Not nice.
I have to say, that although I’m not yet very good at it and am often wailing for help on here – I’m blooming loving riding. I no longer have to rely on lifts from hubby or taxis. I didn’t realise what a sensory joy it would be. The feel of different surfaces under my wheels, the changing smells as I ride through different areas and the wind against me. I’m no speed freak, but love that feeling when I get on a dual carriageway, ease off the throttle, kick it up a gear and give it some welly. Strangely (possibly) I actually feel safer doing 60mph on straight roads than on 30mph twisties. It’s exhilarating. A bit like bedroom antics really. I’m always starving afterwards and want a fag!
And I seem to have been lucky enough to find the perfect bike for me. She just seems a perfect fit and there’s nothing I’d change about her. A really comfy position and seat. Perfect between my thighs (oo er.) Very forgiving to a novice’s occasional gear cock up and pulling away in 2nd. Even copes admirably with getting my fat ass up hills. I’m in lurve. 
Thanks all. |
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| andyscooter |
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andyscooter
World Chat Champion
Joined: 30 May 2009
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 9 years, 171 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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Normally right turns are the issue as you don't really have an apex to aim for and if you're gripping the throttle too hard it can cause problems.
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