Is it the bike, the brakes, or is it me?

[stranderd]

Tl:Dr - went down twice in a month locking the front wheel. How can I avoid it?

So, I used to drive a cbf125 in London for 3500 miles or so. Relocation etc gave me the chance of stepping up, and I took a well kept cb 500 s, that I love deeply.

No major issues for a couple of Months, and I did roughly 5000 km (3000 miles?). I ride on twisties whenever possible, but most of it is my 100km (80 miles) daily commute. No highway, straight road crossing towns etc.

And it happened twice, similar mechanics: first time exiting a roundabout, tarmac not pretty but not terrible either, car on the right lane cuts into mine -> panic brake and off I went (on the continent we drive on the other side, just in case)

Yesterday, straight stretch of road, traffic on a side street...I slow down, they stay still as they should, but when I am about 15metres away (accelerating), one car decides I had a life long and happy enough and jumps in front of me.
Now, I don't remember if I could have swerved on the incoming lane to avoid it. Once again, hard brake, wheel lock, and I went Rolling down the road for a good bit.

Happy I'm not broken, less happy I have an hard time lifting a bottle of beer w my right arm, bike now needs repairing which I hope won't be dramatic.

How can I avoid this from happening? I do think I have a good perception of danger, and I practice (almost daily) hard braking.
Still, when emergency comes, I grab it too hard.

Would ABS help, in perspective? Before stepping up to a newer bike, for which I don't have the funds anyway, I'd prefer to get it right and understand what can I do to avoid this..

[Wafer_Thin_Ham]

Survival reaction. Sounds like you just shit yourself and snatch at the front brake.

ABS will stop it happening, but doesn't solve that you just grab a handful of front brake.

Consider advanced training would be my advice.
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[P.]

Just hit the cars that get in the way.

[Itchy]

How many fingers do you use on the front brake?

Also which fingers and how close to the brake pivot do you use to cover the brake?

If you use 4 fingers to cover the brake then you might grab the brake lock up the front and come off.

A lot of riders I knew and myself use only the index and middle finger on the brake to keep it covered. It's closer to the brake pivot so you can only apply so much force with those two fingers and can still brake pretty hard.

My advice is to go to a car park go up to 15-20 and practice braking using two fingers. While you can't simulate car pulling out on you you can get used to making braking progressively just before the limit of locking the front up you'll train your body to brake without coming off.

The back brake you can pretty much stamp on it.

Be aware that different surfaces and if it is wet it'll change the braking characteristics.
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[Rogerborg]

Our roads are rubbish. Smooth slippery damp tarmac with a layer of oil unicorn vomit on top. If you brake hard, you will have a bad day.

Go slower, brake earlier, and/or get a bike with ABS.
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[Banana_B1]

[Baffler186]

Remember what you learned during your e-stop training (that is if you trained with a school). Progressive breaking, squeeze in a controlled manner, light touch of back brake is a bonus but not essential. Have a few practices in a dry and safe environment.

Also give your brakes a good check over, see they are not binding or snatching. probably not the cause but well worth keeping them in good shape anyway.
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[stinkwheel]

Could you be bottoming out the forks?

I upgraded the brakes on my VFR then had a really scary front wheel locking incident under braking which was pretty much because the foprks bottomed out. Once that happens, you're either locked or doing a rolling stoppie.

I fitted stiffer springs and it's much better now. Much more predictable.

The standard springs on a CB500 are pretty bouncy.

How heavy are you? The ones in Mrs stinkwheels CB500 are fine for her at 8 stone but WAY too soft for me at double that.

I've historically had serious problems with brake pulsing on the CB500 too. When you pull the brake on fairly gently while travelling slowly, does the lever move in and out slightly? A floating disc has finally fixed that.
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[M.C]

Don't panic! Easier said than done but there's no situation that's helped by panicking. I agree with Itchy, I'm a 2 finger braker as well and haven't ever had an issue with locking brakes. Going from a 125 to a big bike you have to respect the brakes more.

Not sure what the cheapest bike with ABS would be but I'm guessing an ER6f would be a contender.

[P.]

[tom_e]

Check your calipers and make sure the pistons aren't binding.
I knew a guy who had a similar issue, the problem was due to his calipers being in shit state all his braking power was right at the end of the lever travel and therefore it was snatchy and shit.

[Teflon-Mike]

Most likely 'problem' is the rider, not the bike.

Two described incidents; one on a round-about, one past a side turn.. and you don't say that you struck either.

Bikes tend to stop a lot shorter, upright, wheels going round, rubber on tar, brakes doing their job, than they do on their sides, bits of metal and plastic grinding on gravel.

Not actually hitting cars that caused you 'hazard' you braked for, then suggests, that you over-reacted; you had more than enough time and space to not hit them.. 'cos you didn't, and you went down, simply by braking too much, too quick in panic; ie you over-reacted.

And again; in the balance of probability, the odds that that is the main cause are far higher than there being any fault with the bike, that may or may not contribute to the magnitude of the situation. It IS these days, probably, one of the most common reasons folk go down.

ABS... principle is that if a sensor can tell that the wheel isn't turning, and relieves brake pressure, it will stop it locking and the wheel skidding. On a car, with four wheels on the floor, that can save a 'skid' and with the steered wheels still turning allow you to still steer..

Thirty odd years ago; I used to take folk into the field in my old Morris Minor minor (car) to practice e-stops, getting them to drive at a tree, then e-stop too late... they would sit there stunned as the tree loomed in the windscreen and car slid towards it, and I'd then tell them to take their foot off the brake, a few yards before they hit the tree... and as soon as they did, car would suddenly steer away from the tree and they'd miss it! It was actually a deliberate ploy to get them to break the 'instinct' to stay on the brakes, whilst they fixated on the tree. But, it works in a car, because four wheels on the floor make it stable, and cars don't steer by 'weight shift'. Bikes do.

Bikes don't steer very well when you brake, as the reaction to braking is to create a weight shift that tends to try and make the bike 'stand up', but to steer it, you want to try and make it lay down.

This negates an awful large chunk of possible benefit in ABS on a bike at source.

ABS 'may' help prevent a full lock up; it wont prevent a 'partial' lock-up. A skid, the wheel loosing grip on the road, but still turning, just slower than the road is going beneath it.

On a car, with four wheels, an ABS system can compare wheel-speeds between the wheels, good chance two or three of them are still turning at road speed when one locks, or part locks; and can further modulate brake pressure at that wheel to let it spin up and find more grip on the road... On a bike, with just two wheels, and under hard braking the back likely not even on the road.. system cant be even that 'smart', reducing even more of the system's potential benefit to what they may have on cars.

This leaves the only area where ABS on a brake has significant scope to be of 'use' is against the 'panic snatch'; relieving brake pressure early on when rider has grabbed a big fist-full in panic, and the 'shock' application is likely to create a 'partial' lock-up, over slowing the wheel in relation to road.

Trouble is... the system doesn't have much to go by, the than the single wheel speed sensor; may not 'detect' the partial lock up as long as the wheel's still turning, so you still 'skid'; and you are still fighting the weight shift to make bike steer whilst breaking and two combined, braking and steering, you are still likely to go down.

YES, I am an ABS doubter; IMO they are of inordinately small benefit on a motorbike; I don't believe they are all that much of an advantage on a car... I DO think that they have proved as much of a hindrance on cars in the last twenty five years, letting drivers get accustomed to being that much more 'reactive' in thier driving and relying on ABS to get them out of trouble, they need not have got into.... and I fear the same is likely true when applied, to bikes, where the basic physics just doesn't give them even 1/3 the chance to do anything 'useful'!!! And as an engineer; technology is the application of science to a practical gain. In this isntance the practical gain is to the marketing men, selling teh snale oil, and throwing a bone to the legal-beagles, making them think they have made a law that makes a difference in changes to the C&U regs. There is bog all gain to the people paying for when they are riding the bikes it's fitted to.

So, on THAT particular suggestion, NO, I do not think that ABS would be in ANY way 'useful' to you.

Empirical luddite thinking says, we have managed quite well without ABS for a century; and riding 'predicatively' avoiding need for sudden reaction, steering, or braking, and acquiring a feel for modulating braking force in our hands, we can (pun) live without it.
While very fact you feel you need it, to compensate for some inadequacy in your skill and experience, suggests that is very good reason why you shouldn't have it, offering false security, making you believe the electrickery will save you crashing, when it simply cannot do that! and worse, will likely be an impediment to you acquiring that skill and experience, not a 'help'.

So, that suggestion scotched...... Other 'factors'

1/ Road Surface - you said that one of the incidents the surface wasn't great, but not 'bad'. It's the end of September, we are in autumn. Ambient temperatures are cooler; the roads are cooler, your tyres are cooler; they aren't as 'grippy' as they were a month back. And, we have patchy rain, that is lifting road slime that has accumulated over the summer months, and, isn't washed away by the rain, and rain, that isn't 'dried' as rapidly in the cooler weather, as it was just a month ago.

THIS is the crashing season!! This change in conditions catches out so many newbies and fair weather riders. Likely your assessment of the 'road surface' isn't quite as accurate as you think.

2/ Tyres - much more critical on a motorcycle than any other vehicle; and the way bikes steer, with that added dynamic of tilting to turn, and weight shift, puts some quite complicated loadings on them.

Bike behaviour is far more sensitive to tyre pressures, and tyre wear and tyre condition; again, that tilt to turn can crate some curiouse changes in the way bike tyres wear, and the change in 'shape' as they wear can have marked influence on the tyres stability and grip.

IF there is any flaw in the bike that's been 'unhelpful' start here; check the tyres.

3/ Suspension - Stink's already mentioned the CB500 being a 'bit bouncy' and suggested looking at the fork oil. But before that; if the fork seals aren't leaking, fork oil is one that rarely gets changed, like the engine oil. JUST basic service procedure of draining, flushing and changing the fork oil can make a huge difference to the way a bike behaves; and again, it's that suspension keeping the tyre pressed against the road; make sure it's doing the job.

4/ Steering - another oft neglected service item; forks rotate on the head-stock bearings; they take all the loads between the frame and the front wheel, they are heavily loaded and they do wear; oft ignored until they go sloppy and start clonking or get notchy, and a MOT Man moans, huge improvements to the way a bike behaves can frequently be found by simple service procedure of checking the head-race bearing pre-load, and or doing a little preventative maintenance and giving them a lick of grease from time to time.

5/ Brakes... finally we get to the first thing you think to blame.... and we are talking about an older Honda with the notorious Nissin floating twin-pot calipers; they are renowned for 'crudding up' and getting sloppy AND sticky on their float pins, and getting rather 'wooden' in feel. But again, oft neglected point of maintenance; they are often ignored. Basic maintenance procedures suggest periodic flush and replacement of brake fluid, few bikes get unless some-one has the notion to 'upgrade' the brake lines to braided. Again, a good overhaul/service of your brakes, and possibly fitting new brake pads, is likely to inordinately improve the 'feel', and offer you far more practical benefit to avoid a lock-up than ABS.

WARNING: most brake failures occur shortly after replacing brake pads or servicing calipers. Reason for this is that the pistons that have been gradually coming further and further out of the caliper, as the pads wear down, have been collecting road crud and grime and probably corroding; pushed back into the caliper to make space for the new pads, they can take some of that crap with them, or the roughed up, exposed portion of the piston, now lets brake fluid weep past the seal, or even starts to wear the seal with its now sand-paper like surface. Its a job that needs care and diligence, and no "Well, it worked before" thinking or short-cuts taken.

But back to top; Those are things to consider, possibly even address; most of them are pretty simple service checks and basic routine maintenance; BUT they are lesser potential contributory factors.

Chief reason for your spills remains (until proven otherwise!) you.

And whilst you say you 'think' you have good hazard awareness... cold appraisal of that suggestion, just from what you have said; NO, you don't.

You are SEEING lots of hazards.... I suspect... but seeing them don't make them so. So of what you are 'seeing' how much really a 'hazard'... remember your test; any situation that makes another road user HAVE to change speed or direction.......

These two cars you braked for.. you didn't hit'em. Which implies you had more than enough space to slow and stop safely, without hitting them, or falling off..... Begs suggestion, DID you need to even slow at all, for them? and if so, were they ACTUALLY the hazard you THINK they were?

OK, giving you the benefit of the doubt; lets say they were a genuine 'hazard', you were 'right' you needed to change speed or direction to negotiate them safely... your reaction to that hazard was, it seems, out of proportion to the magnitude of the hazard. You should have been able to slow or stop or swerve, and do so FAR before there was much real risk of collission.

Work back from that; if these two more 'significant' hazards you percieved, weren't REALLY as significant as you percieved them.. how many more of ALL the 'hazards' you think you see, are equally that much less significant? how many of them, the ones you see as hazards but not that big a hazard.. quite probably, in fact just AREN'T hazards at all...

Comment I make a lot; accidents happen when the gap between confidence and competance becomes too wide. And you are as likely to crash from too little confidence as too much, probably more so IMO, than you are from lack of competance.

From what you have said; I think that the 'problem' you have, is that you have an underlying lack of confidence; and you compensate for that by caution; that caution, tending like as not to over-caution, is comforting; you feel safe because you are being cautiouse; you are not riding, to your mind, like an idiot; BUT, it puts you into a viciouse circle; underlying 'lack' of confidence, you see other traffic, road situations, and over estimate the risks of EVERYTHING, and any sudden action, any change confirms, in your mind, your right to be cautiouse, and to have ranked the risk you saw as high as you did, urging you to ever more caution; Ironically, confirming to your mind your 'right' to be cautiouse, and giving you more confidence what you are doing IS 'right'.

I suspect; in the two incidents you described...much as I hate to agree with Paddy, even in part, but IF, you had been more 'assertive' "Fuck-em".. you would have been going faster; and the drivers who in all probability DID see you, would have either not have hesitated as much before pulling out infront of you, 'wondering' hgow big a gap they had, OR they would have stayed where the fuck they were, seeing that gap shrinking more rapidly and NOT suggesting they might have time to make the gap.

Exact situations you describe, we encounter umpety times a day; coming around round-abouts, I have two fingers over the brake, and a thumb over the horn; passing side turns, EVEN if there's no car nose in view.. thumb is creeping over that horn, fingers hovering over the brake.... BUT hand stays on the gas.

I 'prepare' for the hazard, I dont 'react' to the hazard.

Blimey! if I 'reacted' to every 'potential' hazard like that, I'd be replacing my fork seals once a month, along with the brake pads and the front tyre; to compensate for the wear and tear of hammering the front end every time I hit the brakes!!!!!!!

You HAVE to be 'Assertive' you have to command your road room; you have to make it CLEAR to other road users that that 'gap' is yours, YOU are going to take it, and they better think twice about pulling into it!

This is not the same as being 'agressive'..

Nor is it being 'un-cautiouse'.

Its being ASSERTIVE.. managing the hazards; NOT just seeing them, and convincing yourself that everything is one to justify to yourself your degree caution, but getting beyond that, putting the hazards into genuine proportion, not seeing terrors in every shaddow, recognising what genuinely is or isn't a hazard, and REACTING APROPRIATELY... and more 'caution' ISN'T necesserily 'more safety'

Now, sorry to be offering much sympathy; hope your bruises ease soon, BUT, pointing the direction to avoiding more; Liklihood is there's little 'wrong' with your bike; some basic maintenance is likely prudent regardless, and is likely to be of help in the future, and not just dealing with potential SMIDSY's; a different bike? Not really so much, ABS even less so.

These sort of spills tend to be a check where confidence is outstripping competance; lesson is to get it back in check; in many cases, where confidence is usually high, and competance low, it begs a rider to greater caution; in YOUR case, though I think that would be wrong, and merely perpetuate the cycle of overcaution; I think you need to grasp the nettle and get a bit, possibly a lot, more assertive.

To that end, I warn against cringing back into your comfort zone of 'over-caution'. And I reccomend some post test training, and suggest you talk to your instructor about 'assertive' and 'defensive' riding.
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[Howling Terror]

It was last week whilst listening to motorcyclist podcast thing when I heard the Ducati ABS system mentioned. Very smooth, barely perceptible pulsing at the lever.

Talk of intelligent ABS systems where you can brake firmly mid corner in the wet...so there are good ABS systems about unlike like the Honda linked brake system that many don't like.

So ABS is cool in my opinion..Less so for racetracks or an experienced road rider on good dry roads, but for urban/country lane roads in the wet, the tired bike commuter, the inexperienced what's to dislike? It wouldn't put me off if my next bike has ABS...I could always unplug it.

But really you should be learning how to minimise your need to brake hard (unless you're in a particular racy mood) and looking for escape routes should x happen or even stopping x from happening in the first place by better road positioning...be like a meerkat... in leathers..scan and don't assume.

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[Commuter_Tim]

[stranderd]

Hello comrades,

Thanks for all the replies. There's a lot to ponder on here.

Clarification: the subject is voluntarily misleading: I know that I'm the main cause for the spills.

I do use all the available fingers for braking. In most situations i am able to keep my wits and gently, progressively squeeze the lever. Yet, in these two circumstances I failed. It still is surprising how fast it happened! I'll practice using two fingers - I was used to rest two on the brakes at all times until the instructor shouted the habit out of me. Time to reconsider.

Roger - I'm not in the UK anymore - I did my own brexit and came to Italy. In a way, brexit worked . Roads are no better here, and drivers are probably worse. I remember your disadventure with the Enfield, I wondered why it happened - bit clearer now!

About the bike.. there are actually things I know I need to check - and I'm not trying to blame the bike for my landings. When I took it, it had 11000km made over 15 years of life. It was well kept but it hadn't had anything besides chain lubing and motor oil replacement, there are known issues i've been postponing ("my wife needs treats"):

- transmission. I keep tightening the chain, i really keep doing that, and I struggle to align the wheels. According to the guides it's far beyond the replacement point, and in the end I settled on having the screws tighter on a side - there's apparently no way to keep them even. I refused to admit it may need changing after only these many miles, but I am fiddling with it every weekend..

- brakes. I have no knowledge on how the system should "look", I am stuck to basic checks. The thing I know is that the liquid is dark brown / black and needs changing. This doesn't really matter for the spills described, but it says something on my knowledge on the matter ("I try to do things by myself but there are lots of things i know shit about").

- suspensions: I surely am a big guy (90kg, don't make me reason in pounds). I'm confident nothing has been done on them ever

- steering etc: well now the bike is unuseable and rides in a diagonal line, so I suppose it's a good time for a check up!

Then the bit on attitude and competence..

I surely lack competence, I've been riding only a few thousands miles after all, even if sometimes I feel like I am the best biker that ever walked these lands. I still think I can see and judge an hazard, in fact in the second occasion I behaved as I would consider appropriate in a "by the book" way: "cars at junction -> slow down to be prepared -> confirmed they are not moving -> open throttle and never see them again" - but again, I probably misdjudged the seriousness of the "hazard" when they pulled out, infact I fell down.

The thing about riding defensively / assertively.. being too cautious or too confident... it makes sense, and it's a balance I am far from mastering. I can see situations where I am too cautious, and #2 is probably a situation where keeping steady on the throttle would have avoided the spill (and would have avoided you all guys this post) while other times I behave like an arrogant, gap-diving twat. Yet, I do not think I am generally too cautious, though I reckon in some situations that's been an issue. I am surprised by my lack of discipline in front of what I perceived as - real or not - emergencies.

Training would be good. Would love to have some spare money to invest there, added to the list.

For the ABS, I agree on the "don't grow up relying on it - thing". I became a decent car driver not having it (though I think in my whole life I activated it maybe once on a car - hence I am surprised by the easyness of going full lock with the bike). It's something I will want on my next bike though.

[stranderd]

[Commuter_Tim]

[mrmistoffelee...]

This reminds me of practicing out on the industrial estate for my mod 1 for the 30 mph stop

Far to fast
Grabbed the clutch instead of the front brake
Stamped the back brake in blind panic locking up the back wheel
Instructor dived into roadside bushes came out swearing profusely

Lesson learnt

[Commuter_Tim]

[mrmistoffelee...]

[Commuter_Tim]

[Hong Kong Phooey]

What tyres, how much tread left, are they worn evenly, and what psi?

Just interested, most of above advice covers it - progressive braking, better obs, forward planning.

I changed fork oil as a new rider, and it did make a difference but only after I'd set the air gap properly. I'd filled it too high initially (common noob mistake) and it was rock solid unsurprisingly.
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[stranderd]

[Hong Kong Phooey]

[talkToTheHat]

Practice emergency stops lots. Make sure you dont go tense in the arms when you brake, this will likely give the bike steering input.

After my first off, I thought my new bike was twiated as it was drifting to one side under braking, but it was just me tensing up and putting too much presure on the bars. I got in the habit of heading down my street, doing an emergency stop, a u turn at the end (no through road), and another emergency stop on the way back upbefore setting off every time I went out. I got much more confident with the bike.
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