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Odd question (burglary): Further q's about officialdom

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Mark_F
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PostPosted: 18:25 - 02 Oct 2016    Post subject: Odd question (burglary): Further q's about officialdom Reply with quote
Just wondering if someone could clarify for me what aggravated burglary is, and how it may be different to armed robbery?

I ask as yesterday I was tied up with a knife to my throat while my house was ransacked, the nerdowells making off on my bike (they didn't get far and were caught with lots of my stuff).

My bike is kinda ok, but there is some damage and I'm not certain what I'm gonna do with it yet...

Last edited by Mark_F on 20:35 - 17 Oct 2016; edited 1 time in total
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 18:35 - 02 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Burglary involves the intent to enter premises unlawfully in order to commit various crimes. I believe that theft is not necessarily required. For example, breaking into someone's home in order to threaten them without theft can be considered burglary.

Robbery involves the use of force to aid in a theft, anywhere. In the street, in a place open to the public (e.g. holding up a checkout operator).

It vaguely feels like burglary is a superior offence otherwise you could be prosecuted for both. Maybe that happens.

I have no idea about aggravated via armed, technical chat.

Solicitor, no?
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Mark_F
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PostPosted: 18:42 - 02 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Police are handling it but was just curious (I haven't been told what they've been charged with, I just overheard "aggravated burglary" mentioned at some point, which may not be related to me).

The time since has been spent in the station, in hospital, and trying to figure out what was taken but not recovered. Heads in a bit of a spin (it's surreal more than anything else).

I'll try get more out of the police in the coming days and get advice when I know more of what's going on. Was just curious as to that phrase though (my understanding is "aggravated" means the victim kinda inflamed the situation somehow, but I'm obviously not certain).
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grr666
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PostPosted: 18:50 - 02 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Where did this happen? What area?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burglary_in_English_law

Quote:
Aggravated burglary[edit]
Under section 10, aggravated burglary is committed when a burglar enters and "at the time has with him a firearm,[23] imitation firearm,[24] weapon of offence,[25] or any explosive[26]".

"Has with him"[edit]
In R v Kelt 1977 65 Cr App R 74 it was held that this phrase will normally mean "carrying", and in R v Klass 162 JP 105,[27] The Times, 17 December 1997 (CA) others had entered a building for criminal purposes while the defendant remained outside, but in possession of a scaffolding pole which had been used to break a window. This did not, in law, constitute an entry for the purposes of burglary. It was held that since Klass had not himself entered the building, he was guilty of burglary and not aggravated burglary.

"At the time"[edit]
In R v O'Leary 1986 82 Cr App R 337, the defendant entered a house unarmed but picked up a kitchen knife once inside; he then used it to force the occupier to hand over property. It was held that this constituted aggravated burglary because the offence which was part of the enterprise had been committed while in possession of the weapon.
In R v Kelly, 1992 The Times, December 2, the defendant had used a screwdriver to gain entry; once inside the premises, he was confronted by the occupiers and used the screwdriver as a weapon to force them to hand over a video recorder. It was held that the screwdriver became an offensive weapon when he formed an intention to use it for causing injury to the occupier at the time of the theft, and therefore he was guilty of aggravated burglary.
Mens Rea[edit]
It is necessary to prove that the defendant was aware of his possession of a weapon to convict of aggravated burglary. In R v Russell 1984 Crim L R 425, the defendant was found in possession of a knife but had forgotten that he had it; it was held that he was not guilty of aggravated burglary. A plea that the defendant did not intend to use the weapon is not a defence to this charge (R v Stones 1989 1 WLR 156).

Mode of trial and sentence[edit]
Aggravated burglary is an indictable-only offence.[28] It is punishable with imprisonment for life or for any shorter term.[29]

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Last edited by grr666 on 18:54 - 02 Oct 2016; edited 1 time in total
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 18:52 - 02 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mark_F wrote:
(my understanding is "aggravated" means the victim kinda inflamed the situation somehow, but I'm obviously not certain).


No, it refers to the perpetrator.

I can't tell you the exact distinction though.

In the context of burglary you can imagine it very roughly as being the existence of the victim in the house.

If the house is empty and the perpetrator breaks in without carrying a weapon and walks off with a TV, that's not aggravated or armed, that's just burglary.

If they carry a weapon and display force against a victim inside the house, then it's elevated to 'aggravated or armed' or whatever.

Weapon being present with an empty house I'm not sure. I'd lean towards aggravated because there's mens rea for use of the weapon.

But this is just chat without someone with real experience. A bit like tax law. Fuzzy.

Last edited by Derivative on 18:53 - 02 Oct 2016; edited 1 time in total
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supZ
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PostPosted: 18:52 - 02 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
That's certainly a warped situation.
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Mark_F
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PostPosted: 18:56 - 02 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
grr666 wrote:
Where did this happen? What area?


Greater Manchester (Wigan).

Derivative wrote:


In the context of burglary you can imagine it very roughly as being the existence of the victim in the house.


Ahh, that makes me feel a bit more at ease (and makes sense), thanks.
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wr6133
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PostPosted: 20:17 - 02 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Laymans terms aggravated is when the perpetrator carries some form of weapon.

So if they crept in to your house through a window while you kipped and stole shit that would be (domestic) burglary, if they (as they did) tied you up and put a blade to your neck it becomes aggravated.

It's a scumbag/junkie/ebolian crime. Max sentence is life, reality sentence is nowhere near. Hopefully the fuckers that did you over OD on some nasty prison smack and spend their last few moments convulsing and frothing in agony.

Armed robbery is different. Max sentence is life, 15 years is pretty common. It's a bit of an idiots crime these days because the courts will slam you with serious time.
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MCN
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PostPosted: 22:04 - 02 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Google Aggravated. Rolling Eyes

Then Google Assault. Rolling Eyes

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Mark_F
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PostPosted: 22:12 - 02 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
MCN wrote:
Google Aggravated. Rolling Eyes

Then Google Assault. Rolling Eyes

Very Happy


I know I know, though sometimes dubious info comes back.

Just found out one is diseased, and yes they're both smackheads (i think most would have guessed).

They are letting me know in a bit about charges etc.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 22:23 - 02 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
https://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/s_to_u/theft_act_offences/#a21

HTH
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recman
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PostPosted: 07:51 - 03 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
This is all a little too calm for me given what's happened.
I've seen more emotion in a nail in the new tyre thread.
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Raffles
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PostPosted: 08:52 - 03 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
There seems to be a lot of this type of thing happening at the moment:-

Poor Kim.
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zark
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PostPosted: 09:07 - 03 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Just remember that what someone is arrested for, and what they are charged with are often very different things.
To arrest someone just needs reasonable grounds to suspect them off an offence, enough to satisfy the custody sergeant that the arrest was lawful and necessary.
Charging decisions are made when evidence has been collected (statements, forensics, CCTV etc) and usually by the cps for more serious offences - in theory to give the best chance of a successful prosecution at Court.

Sounds like a shit state of affairs though. Glad you're OK
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MCN
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PostPosted: 13:04 - 03 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
recman wrote:
This is all a little too calm for me given what's happened.
I've seen more emotion in a nail in the new tyre thread.


Nah.... 'Insurance Auto-Renew' Butt Huhrt is waaay more explicit than this shid Broe.
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Mark_F
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PostPosted: 17:45 - 03 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
zark wrote:
Just remember that what someone is arrested for, and what they are charged with are often very different things.
To arrest someone just needs reasonable grounds to suspect them off an offence, enough to satisfy the custody sergeant that the arrest was lawful and necessary.
Charging decisions are made when evidence has been collected (statements, forensics, CCTV etc) and usually by the cps for more serious offences - in theory to give the best chance of a successful prosecution at Court.

Sounds like a shit state of affairs though. Glad you're OK


They have plenty of evidence, lots of little bags with my stuff in (though they seem to have mislaid some stuff), and their blood, hair, etc in both of my previous lids..

Charged with aggrevated burglary and false imprisonment.

Will update as things progress.
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Mark_F
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PostPosted: 20:40 - 03 Oct 2016    Post subject: Re: Odd question: Reply with quote
Banana_B1 wrote:
Mark_F wrote:
was tied up with a knife to my throat while my house was ransacked, the nerdowells making off on my bike

Because you let them do it rather than picking up the nearest objects to use as your own weapons Karma


I didnt have a choice. Nowhere to put any weapons near the door (or near enough to be grabable).The house is fucking tiny and not particularly laid out for a siege (its a 1940's council granny bungalow).
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Mark_F
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PostPosted: 20:54 - 03 Oct 2016    Post subject: Re: Odd question: Reply with quote
Banana_B1 wrote:
Mark_F wrote:
I didnt have a choice. Nowhere to put any weapons near the door (or near enough to be grabable).The house is fucking tiny and not particularly laid out for a siege (its a 1940's council granny bungalow).

Should have thrown your slippers and alarm clock at them (while it was ringing) best film ever Thumbs Up


It's easy to say afterwards about what could have been done differently, but its done now (and I don't think its reasonable to have an axe in my hand every time I open the door).
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zark
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PostPosted: 20:59 - 03 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Mark_F wrote:
Charged with aggrevated burglary and false imprisonment.

Result
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 21:26 - 03 Oct 2016    Post subject: Re: Odd question: Reply with quote
Banana_B1 wrote:
Mark_F wrote:
easy to say afterwards about what could have been done differently, but its done now (and I don't think its reasonable to have an axe in my hand every time I open the door).

When unknown suspicious folks knock on door...there's always a small window to half-open with hands/arms away from grabbing and knifing instead of the whole front door Thumbs Up


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Mark_F
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PostPosted: 21:33 - 03 Oct 2016    Post subject: Re: Odd question: Reply with quote
Banana_B1 wrote:
Mark_F wrote:
easy to say afterwards about what could have been done differently, but its done now (and I don't think its reasonable to have an axe in my hand every time I open the door).

When unknown suspicious folks knock on door...there's always a small window to half-open with hands/arms away from opponent grabbing and or knifing instead of the whole front door Thumbs Up


That's the thing when you think its a neighbour (or maybe you think its odd to converse with neighbours, I dono), it wasn't remotely suspicious until the scrotes hand appeared round the door (it has frosted glass so I couldn't see a face anyway), and I held em off for a few mins until the knife came at me (so I couldn't hold the door).
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