Resend my activation email : Register : Log in 
BCF: Bike Chat Forums


Germany will outlaw the internal combustion engine from 2030

Reply to topic
Bike Chat Forums Index -> Biking News & Rumours Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
View previous topic : View next topic  
Author Message

carpe_diem
Trackday Trickster



Joined: 28 Jul 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 20:57 - 10 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

They do seem to be hugely scammable, going by some notional "continuous" power ecobullshit rating. Zero are pretty cagey about it, but I believe that their "11kW" models peak at something nearer to 25kW, as opposed to 40kW for their full power versions. The Indian one would very likely be Learner Legal.


Thanks, Mr Borg. Obviously I'd hope that by the time it's available over here I'll have got my DAS done and my licence under my belt, so it should be academic anyway, but it's good to know nonetheless.
____________________
Currently riding: Suzuki EN125 | Previous rides: Vespa 125PX, Yamaha SR125
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Itchy
Super Spammer



Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:02 - 10 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:


My question is, what do you think will change this time?


Governments pushing this as an alternative. Way back in the UK the UK government pushed people into buying diesel cleaner they said better MPG they said. So many people switched to diesel.
____________________
Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

RhynoCZ
Super Spammer



Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:34 - 10 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
RhynoCZ wrote:


My question is, what do you think will change this time?


Governments pushing this as an alternative. Way back in the UK the UK government pushed people into buying diesel cleaner they said better MPG they said. So many people switched to diesel.


Way back in the UK, meaing the post war Europe and the oil crisis Europe, right? Well, today we do have none of that above. Meaning the political will won't be as strong as back in the ''way back in the UK'' era, when more efficient diesels just made sense.

This alternative cars, not just EV's, movement may change. I'm not sure about the UK, but in most of the democratic countries of this planet, govs. and political views change. Also, going electric does not mean going green, as we've talked about before.
____________________
'87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI; MZ 150 ETZ, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:38 - 10 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:

Way back in the UK, meaing the post war Europe and the oil crisis Europe, right? Well, today we do have none of that above. Meaning the political will won't be as strong as back in the ''way back in the UK'' era, when more efficient diesels just made sense.


Nah, about 20 years ago when diesels were encouraged. These days we now suffer the clouds of black smoke when they accelerate (might be a bigger cloud with some German based makers.....)

All the best

Katy
____________________
Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Itchy
Super Spammer



Joined: 07 Apr 2005
Karma :

PostPosted: 21:41 - 10 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:


Way back in the UK, meaing the post war Europe and the oil crisis Europe, right?



No way back as in 2000. IIRC Gordon Brown introduced preferential tax subsidises for diesel engines.
____________________
Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Brendan110_0
Two Stroke Sniffer



Joined: 31 Mar 2015
Karma :

PostPosted: 18:56 - 13 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Did everyone forget nuclear fusion? (not to be confused with fission and deadly by-products).
Large test station is already being built as they know it works! (iTER)

Electric generation 4 million times more efficient than fossil fuel.
____________________
sreeB fo gniK
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Derivative
World Chat Champion



Joined: 03 Aug 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 19:06 - 13 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diesel is still preferentially taxed across many parts of Europe as anyone who has been on a bit of a road trip would know.

In Luxembourg I recall it being about 15-20% cheaper.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 08:03 - 14 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

RhynoCZ wrote:
more efficient diesels

Are diesel engines more efficient in the sense that they convert more of the chemical energy in the fuel into kinetic?

I ask because diesel inherently has more chemical energy than the equivalent volume of petrol, so all things being equal a diesel car should go further on the same amount of fuel.

But petrol and diesel attract the same swingeing amount of duty per litre in the UK (and [UPDATE], I see even less in Abroad).

Why come?
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

weasley
World Chat Champion



Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 08:41 - 14 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
RhynoCZ wrote:
more efficient diesels

Are diesel engines more efficient in the sense that they convert more of the chemical energy in the fuel into kinetic?

I ask because diesel inherently has more chemical energy than the equivalent volume of petrol, so all things being equal a diesel car should go further on the same amount of fuel.

But petrol and diesel attract the same swingeing amount of duty per litre in the UK (and [UPDATE], I see even less in Abroad).

Why come?


Diesels are more efficient for a few reasons:

- the fuel is denser and does have a higher energy density
- they run with no throttle restrictions, removing this restriction from the intake system
- they run at lower speeds and with typically longer strokes and higher compression, allowing for longer burn times and greater thermodynamic efficiency.

The new crop of down-sized, turbocharged petrols are getting good at efficiency though.

The most efficient recip engines are marine, 2-stroke, crosshead diesels which get over 50% thermal efficiency when using exhaust energy recovery systems.
____________________
Yamaha XJ600 | Yamaha YZF600R Thundercat | KTM 990 SMT | BMW F900XR TE
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Rogerborg
nimbA



Joined: 26 Oct 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 09:02 - 14 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

weasley wrote:
The most efficient recip engines are marine, 2-stroke, crosshead diesels which get over 50% thermal efficiency when using exhaust energy recovery systems.

That is impressive.

Where next for petrol, I wonder. I'm guessing camless and perhaps https://www.ilmor.co.uk/capabilities/5-stroke-engine
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Alpineandy
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Mar 2015
Karma :

PostPosted: 13:31 - 14 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
diesel engines more efficient in the sense that they convert more ?


As I understand it, one of the reasons for diesel efficiency is that it's much less reliant on the air/fuel ratio than petrol.
Put 0.001 of a litre of diesel in the cylinder with some air and compress it, it'll explode.
Whereas put the wrong ratio of air with 0.001 of a litre of petrol and it'll burn rather than explode.
I'm sure others can explain better but hopefully this is understandable (and I've got that right Very Happy ).
I believe that has big benefits at low revs, especially when stationary at 'tick-over'.
____________________
The above comment isn't necessarily the truth and anyone that says it is, is only correct if it's the truth or they're bigger than me.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

Alpineandy
World Chat Champion



Joined: 18 Mar 2015
Karma :

PostPosted: 13:37 - 14 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brendan110_0 wrote:
Electric generation 4 million times more efficient than fossil fuel.

Is that a quote from 'Doc Brown' about his delorean?
____________________
The above comment isn't necessarily the truth and anyone that says it is, is only correct if it's the truth or they're bigger than me.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

talkToTheHat
World Chat Champion



Joined: 21 Feb 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 22:16 - 14 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Diesels have a head-start in efficiency as engine speed is controlled the amount of fuel injected into the cylinder, so as said no pumping losses from a throttle body. At maximum torque demand (wide open throttle on a traditional petrol engine) there is little difference, particularly with aerodynamically smooth throttle bodies. At partial torque demand diesel cycle engines have a huge efficency gain, and fuel consumption at idle is significantly reduced.

Another factor on the efficiency of an engine is compression ratio. Diesel engines are compression ignition, relying on what would be detrimental knock in a petrol engine for ignition so it is easier to get a higher compression ratio.

Adding a compressor to the intake boosts the effective compression ratio and thus increases efficiency, traditional petrol engines run into problems with knock so there is a limit to the potential gain here. Using heat energy from the exhaust to drive the compressor is energy that would otherwise be wasted, so a turbocharger is more efficient than a crank-driven supercharger.

Note however that modern direct injection petrol engines can perform trickery by injecting fuel in the compression stroke to get a stratified charge which can reduce knock and in some circumstances allow very lean burning, often with wide open throttle. This means that in some circumstances a direct injection petrol engine can perform as efficiently as a diesel engine.

There are further issues with diesel being slower burning, ideal for low speed marine engines and heavy haulage, less so for small domestic engines where compactness is an issue.

The nail in the coffin for diesel is for all the efficiency it's not clean. A catalytic converter works very well in a stoichiometric or lean burning petrol engine. In a diesel the particulate emissions can clog a catalyst and are a hazard in themselves. Urea injectors and particle traps go unmaintained. Diesel also produces a greater ratio of carbon dioxide to water as a direct result of its composition.

Whereas diesel works with a use less to emit less stratergy, petrol wins on emit cleaner. Of course LPG (propane/butane) is better and even more so for natural gas (mostly methane) but care must be taken not to release such to the atmosphere as the unburnt gas is in itself a pollutant.

Hydrogen is clean at the point of combustion as simple catalysts can deal with nitrogen compounds created, but hydrogen from fossil fuel is incredibly expensive and I hear there are problems with fission power, and putting fusion into practice is taking longer than expected. Furthermore if hydrogen is available, you may as well use a fuel cell and electric motors for best efficiency.

As such electrical vehicles with a chemical battery appear to be an inefficient compromise, removing emissions form the point of use to a power station, which can burn fossil fuel cleaner than an IC engine, harness solar/wind/tidal/etc or be nuclear and as such pushing the burden of clean energy onto the state or energy giants. Electrical is going to happen. We're not going to like it. The battery condition of older used vehicles is going to be a problem, and those of us who buy older vehicles are going to be hit hardest.

What remains to be solved is the responsible and environmentally friendly recycling of the batteries from such. Open air smelting to recover rare elements in the third world is a major environmental disaster fuelled by recyclables.
____________________
Bandit. does. everything.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
Karma :

PostPosted: 23:27 - 14 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Derivative wrote:
Diesel is still preferentially taxed across many parts of Europe as anyone who has been on a bit of a road trip would know.


Could argue that the same applies in the UK. The tax paid for the energy content of the fuel / amount of CO2 generated is lower for diesel than for petrol in the UK.

Rogerborg wrote:

Are diesel engines more efficient in the sense that they convert more of the chemical energy in the fuel into kinetic?


Yes, although it will depend quite a bit depending on the use / design. Biggest down side of a petrol engine is the pumping losses from the throttle, but then on high revs / high throttle situations that is irrelevant.

Alpineandy wrote:

Put 0.001 of a litre of diesel in the cylinder with some air and compress it, it'll explode.
Whereas put the wrong ratio of air with 0.001 of a litre of petrol and it'll burn rather than explode.


Far better to burn rather than explode. Problem with compression for petrol engines is that if it gets too high it will explode, which is likely to do severe damage to the engine.

All the best

Katy
____________________
Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Pigeon
World Chat Champion



Joined: 27 Sep 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 23:40 - 14 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

talkToTheHat wrote:
Urea injectors and particle traps go unmaintained.


No the feeling.


Wait. What. Urea injectors???
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

weasley
World Chat Champion



Joined: 16 Oct 2010
Karma :

PostPosted: 17:03 - 15 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Known as selective catalytic reduction, or SCR, these use a weak urea solution along with a catalyst in the exhaust to 'undo' the nitrogen-oxygen reaction (that forms the harmful NOx emissions). The urea solution is widely known by the trade name 'AdBlue'. It has been common on trucks for several years but is now also getting into cars as emissions limits tighten.
____________________
Yamaha XJ600 | Yamaha YZF600R Thundercat | KTM 990 SMT | BMW F900XR TE
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

jjdugen
World Chat Champion



Joined: 03 Jun 2011
Karma :

PostPosted: 17:12 - 15 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Amazing stuff, Piss. You can make explosives from it AND it cleans emissions. Off to the pub, then.
____________________
The CBR900RR has been sold. Aprilia Falco worms its way into my heart.
Try Soi 23 on Amazon for a good read.... Self promotion? Moi?
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

ViktorVon
L Plate Warrior



Joined: 15 Oct 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 18:24 - 15 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

It made into news for a few days back home (I'm original from a small town in Bavaria) but, in all honesty, no one besides politicians see it happening. For as much as we germans have pride on being as much eco-friendly as possible, 2030 is a far too close date to stop the manufacture of petrol/diesel engines.

As far as my contacts in the industry extend, its more of a "showing off" measure than something that is actually going to happen.

2030 will come, law will "dissapear" and no one will remember that ever passed.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website You must be logged in to rate posts

talkToTheHat
World Chat Champion



Joined: 21 Feb 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 19:52 - 16 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Pigeon wrote:
Wait. What. Urea injectors???


AdBlue / diesel exhaust fluid is 32% urea in aqueous solution. It is used to reduce nitrogen oxides in diesel exhausts.
____________________
Bandit. does. everything.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

Jadeskidd
L Plate Warrior



Joined: 23 Oct 2016
Karma :

PostPosted: 04:01 - 23 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

kerr wrote:
The problem i have always had with the thought of electric vehicles is are they ever going to have enough range to be useable?
I mean battery technology hasn't advanced anywhere in christ knows how long, surely the only viable alternative is a renewable combustable fuel.
They are working on the range, and things are advancing pretty fast. The Tesla Model S has a 310 miles range, and with a supercharger you can replenish half the battery in as little as 20 minutes.

But the problem I see is that this green energy is not green at all, it pollutes just as or even more than conventional energy. Making batteries requires fossil fuel, and what do you get after the battery expires? A big box of poison that you can't just shoot into space like we see in movies.

This german project is just an attempt to wash some of this unpleasant feeling the VW emissions scandal left us with.
IMO it's just fiction.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts

stevo as b4
World Chat Champion



Joined: 17 Jul 2003
Karma :

PostPosted: 10:16 - 23 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Many current small diesel's now we are all drive by wire, do actually have a throttle body too. It is used to help reduce NoX emissions at low load, as running oxygen rich increases them. Also with an electronic throttle body you can close it on the overrun to improve engine braking, which is often worse on diesels too.

I think Peugeot are one of the first manufacturers to fit SCR systems to passenger cars, (they were historically one of the best passenger car diesel pioneer's). The tank is fairly small but I believe it can depending on use last between services. The problem is if you run out of add blue it will upset the electronics and put you into limp home mode.

In HGV's some firms don't use DPF units, but a combination of oxidation catalysts and SCR systems all built into a huge very complex and very expensive silencer box full of electronic sensors etc. The days of bolting on twin open stacks for new trucks are gone.

These systems can produce far lower exhaust emissions than before, trucks are much cleaner than cars emissions wise now. The penalty is that you have to put more fuel in to get cleaner emissions. Probably 2-3mpg worse than before.
They have also introduced natural gas systems on some trucks now too, so that they can switch to cleaner burning gas in towns and city's, and on the open roads and motorways they switch back diesel. I quite like this idea, but it's the extra cost and complication that's the problem.

Then there is the whole people argument of pollution is pollution and it doesn't matter where you make it. Clean up the built up areas though and less people in cities will die of respiratory illness IMO.
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail You must be logged in to rate posts

RhynoCZ
Super Spammer



Joined: 09 Mar 2012
Karma :

PostPosted: 11:27 - 23 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Adblue shouldn't be a problem. When I was interested in this system, I found somewhere, passenger cars normally had a 10-30L reservoire, with avg. usage of 0.5 - 1.8 liters per 1000 km, depends on the engine and the MPG.

Now, googling around, Mercedes-Benz diesels are good for 25k km, and the best I could find was Audi A8 with 36,000km, at 27L reservoir. A 10L bottle of the Adblue comes from about £6 (that's one pack of smokes in the UK). Most of us are having a 12 months service period and won't do 36k a year. So, top it up in every 2 oil changes or every 12 months if you cover more distance throughout the year.

People are moaning over nothing.
____________________
'87 Honda XBR 500, '96 Kawasaki ZX7R P1, '90 Honda CB-1, '88 Kawasaki GPz550, MZ 150 ETZ
'95 Mercedes-Benz w202 C200 CGI; MZ 150 ETZ, '98 Mercedes-Benz w210 E200 Kompressor
 Back to top
View user's profile Send private message You must be logged in to rate posts
Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 7 years, 158 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
  Display posts from previous:   
This page may contain affiliate links, which means we may earn a small commission if a visitor clicks through and makes a purchase. By clicking on an affiliate link, you accept that third-party cookies will be set.

Post new topic   Reply to topic    Bike Chat Forums Index -> Biking News & Rumours All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
You cannot attach files in this forum
You cannot download files in this forum

Read the Terms of Use! - Powered by phpBB © phpBB Group
 

Debug Mode: ON - Server: birks (www) - Page Generation Time: 0.10 Sec - Server Load: 0.2 - MySQL Queries: 17 - Page Size: 134.51 Kb