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Derivative
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PostPosted: 17:47 - 04 Oct 2016    Post subject: Ranking universities with colours and metals and stuff Reply with quote
Two articles here:

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2016/sep/29/english-universities-ranked-gold-silver-and-bronze

Quote:
Silver grades will be awarded to universities offering courses with “high levels of stretch that ensures all students are significantly challenged,” while bronze will go to universities where “provision is of satisfactory quality … however, the provider is likely to be significantly below benchmark in one or more areas.”


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/oct/04/rudd-announces-crackdown-on-overseas-students-and-new-work-visas

Quote:
She raised the prospect of a multi-tiered student visa system, under which rights to bring in families and their right to work, to go on to post-study jobs or to come without passing an English language test, would be tied to the quality of the course and the university involved.

Nick Timothy, Theresa May’s chief of staff, has in the past floated the idea of restricting the right to work in Britain after graduation to those who attend Oxbridge and the Russell Group of universities.


Thoughts? I find it rather refreshing to see a semi-official recognition of the fact that we have Universities, and then we have "Universities".

Seems like a partial unwinding of the polytechnic changes of the 90s.

Ignoring 'surf studies' type courses entirely, I generally think it's been really misleading for 17-18 year olds to be told 'a degree is a degree' setting them on course to take on tens of thousands in debt.

Last edited by Derivative on 17:57 - 04 Oct 2016; edited 1 time in total
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Hetzer
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PostPosted: 17:55 - 04 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
So they're going to formally recognize that only students with degrees from Oxford and Cambridge won't have to settle for jobs in McD's? Coo, who'd have thought we'd see the day! x3 £9000 training-fee for grill-chef quals. Laughing
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 17:56 - 04 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hetzer wrote:
So they're going to formally recognize that only students with degrees from Oxford and Cambridge won't have to settle for jobs in McD's? Coo, who'd have thought we'd see the day! x3 £9000 training-fee for grill-chef quals. Laughing


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Hey, it's like an anti-N-word. I'm not allowed to say it but you can do it for me. Laughing
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 18:05 - 04 Oct 2016    Post subject: Re: Ranking universties with colours and metals and stuff Reply with quote
Derivative wrote:

Thoughts? I find it rather refreshing to see a semi-official recognition of the fact that we have Universities, and then we have "Universities".



I don't find it useful. There are many reasons why as follows.

University rankings can be gamed. Percy about a year ago talked about how Queen Mary University gamed its ranking into the Russell group by sacking their decent teaching staff and hiring people who pumped out research. Therefore a higher ranked university doesn't mean better teaching.

A rank also doesn't tell you that much other than prestige. I went to a not so good university. I came out at stage 3 of my ACCA exams. All I needed were 4 exams to be qualified. Down the road at the much higher ranked university the students came out at mid way through stage 1 meaning they needed to complete 9 exams before they were qualified. Hell I had some really bad trainees when I still did accounting. They would boast about how they went to a Russell Group university but seemed incapable of doing the simplest things.

Plus you get outliers. BPP university for instance. IIRC they only offer law and accountancy. It is ranked bottom of the university ranking tables. OTOH they allow you do cram your undergraduate degree into as little as 15 months. It also costs a whole load less too and people can go there and walk out with a degree spending <£10K.

In that who is the smarter person in this case? The person with 30K in debt (just from fees + living costs) or the person with £10K in debt and 15 months debt of living costs?
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 18:10 - 04 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Hmm. You're not wrong, but I think that your treatment of prestige sidesteps the point a bit. I actually think the quality of teaching at a particular institution is not that relevant (realpolitik, rather than ideal world).

As far as I can tell, prestige is a far better indicator of future success than actual ability. Though that is probably influenced by the fact that higher socioeconomic groups make it in to the more prestigious Universities anyway.

The reason I say this is that many career paths have... heavily compounding interest, if that makes sense. The guy that gets into a well paying professional career straight out of University has an enormous headstart by 25-30, regardless of actual ability, as long as they can stick it out. Riding on a string of tasty names on the CV and connections. What Hetzer would affectionately term 'scamming a high income'.

Then again, I have far less experience with the 'middle tier' - I know people working unskilled jobs, people in relatively high end, but very few on e.g. management schemes at supermarkets etc. Ability might matter more there.
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 18:16 - 04 Oct 2016    Post subject: Re: Ranking universties with colours and metals and stuff Reply with quote
Posting this seperately as it's kind of OT..

Itchy wrote:
I went to a not so good university. I came out at stage 3 of my ACCA exams. All I needed were 4 exams to be qualified. Down the road at the much higher ranked university the students came out at mid way through stage 1 meaning they needed to complete 9 exams before they were qualified. Hell I had some really bad trainees when I still did accounting. They would boast about how they went to a Russell Group university but seemed incapable of doing the simplest things.


Funnily enough I had the exact opposite experience in CA - the accounting grads with exemptions at my firm were constantly worrying about results, a few of them failed, they seemed to struggle quite a bit.

I found it all fairly trivial because I'd basically spent the last 3 years doing exactly what CA demands - memorising reams of nonsense and promptly forgetting it all.

Then again, I noped out after realising senior accountants made less than juniors in other fields and seemed dead inside.

My ultimate conclusion was that accounting is what you do if you want to wear suits and strut to the lowers whilst the uppers giggle at you.

Last edited by Derivative on 18:21 - 04 Oct 2016; edited 1 time in total
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Hetzer
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PostPosted: 18:18 - 04 Oct 2016    Post subject: Re: Ranking universties with colours and metals and stuff Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Derivative wrote:

Thoughts? I find it rather refreshing to see a semi-official recognition of the fact that we have Universities, and then we have "Universities".



I don't find it useful. There are many reasons why as follows.

University rankings can be gamed. Percy about a year ago talked about how Queen Mary University gamed its ranking into the Russell group by sacking their decent teaching staff and hiring people who pumped out research. Therefore a higher ranked university doesn't mean better teaching.

A rank also doesn't tell you that much other than prestige. I went to a not so good university. I came out at stage 3 of my ACCA exams. All I needed were 4 exams to be qualified. Down the road at the much higher ranked university the students came out at mid way through stage 1 meaning they needed to complete 9 exams before they were qualified. Hell I had some really bad trainees when I still did accounting. They would boast about how they went to a Russell Group university but seemed incapable of doing the simplest things.

Plus you get outliers. BPP university for instance. IIRC they only offer law and accountancy. It is ranked bottom of the university ranking tables. OTOH they allow you do cram your undergraduate degree into as little as 15 months. It also costs a whole load less too and people can go there and walk out with a degree spending <£10K.

In that who is the smarter person in this case? The person with 30K in debt (just from fees + living costs) or the person with £10K in debt and 15 months debt of living costs?


You're trying to apply logic to yet another rotten-to-the-core societal institution. How about the fact universities are now allowing 4 Ds and a C in, strangely coinciding with de-regulation of numbers and that fat £9000 yearly fee.

And what does society get in most cases? Morons with a bit of paper not fit for wiping one's arse. Just one example I've recently come to know, ex-political staffer (Lib Dem), high enough to have rubbed shoulders with scumeron, can't remember salient points made minutes earlier or to establish vital facts until literally the last hour on a job booked two weeks previously. Now running an estate agency. Nice chap but competent? Lol. Unfortunately he's typical of your common grad. Because humans. Laughing

Shit in, shit out, across the board the species isn't fit for purpose. Er...what purpose? Pizzas and fucking movies. So, maybe it is. Mr. Green
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 18:21 - 04 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Derivative wrote:

The reason I say this is that many career paths have... heavily compounding interest, if that makes sense. The guy that gets into a well paying professional career straight out of University has an enormous headstart by 25-30, regardless of actual ability, as long as they can stick it out. Riding on a string of tasty names on the CV and connections. What Hetzer would affectionately term 'scamming a high income'.


The difference is I see the world through a meritocracy lens. Perhaps I'm deluded as a while back there was a jobs thread and the general consensus was to blag (lie) and to learn secret handshakes. While I was pilloried for get/improve skills type thinking.

In that is it an MBA effect (MBAs are useless but you get to meet wealthy people with connections). Or is it self selecting anyway? That those who have the connections rich daddies or know the secret handshake would get the jobs regardless of what university they went to? Or would have climbed regardless?
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 18:26 - 04 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
The difference is I see the world through a meritocracy lens. Perhaps I'm deluded as a while back there was a jobs thread and the general consensus was to blag (lie) and to learn secret handshakes. While I was pilloried for get/improve skills type thinking.


Assuming we're talking about a bog standard lower/middle class youngster, I'd say both are important, but the social/business side more so.

Understanding of opportunity costs, selection of career, negotiation tactics etc are 'skills' that many seem to lack (or they place themselves in situations where they can't afford to exercise them).

In an ideal world it'd all be meritocratic but we don't live in that world.

I mean, as an example that's probably obvious - take two individuals that are otherwise identical with a job in Central London - stick one of them in a flat in Basildon, the other around the corner from the office, and watch the latter decimate as they have 2-3 extra hours a day, are less tired, etc. Pure meritocracy doesn't really work in a world with physical constraints before you even add the social side in.

'Secret handshake' is a bit nonspecific but I see stuff as basic as self confidence affecting people hugely. The attitude that they're 'lucky' to get a job rather than treating it as a business relationship. It's not all about the right colour of tie.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 18:29 - 04 Oct 2016    Post subject: Re: Ranking universties with colours and metals and stuff Reply with quote
Derivative wrote:
Then again, I noped out after realising senior accountants made less than juniors in other fields and seemed dead inside.

My ultimate conclusion was that accounting is what you do if you want to wear suits and strut to the lowers whilst the uppers giggle at you.


I quit accountancy back in 2009. I handed back my membership card and found something else to do.

The problem is you get a lot of accountant types that get stuck at a certain level and stay there for the next 30 years but I guess this happens in a lot of jobs too.

You have to do something else to make big bucks try for partner so you can have your own little farm of mid level accountants to do work for you or set up your own... yet this is just another variation of you'll never get rich working for somebody else though isn't it?
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 18:33 - 04 Oct 2016    Post subject: Re: Ranking universties with colours and metals and stuff Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
you'll never get rich working for somebody else though isn't it?


Sure, but I don't really find that discussion interesting (no offense intended, we're probably on the same wavelength anyway).

It's basically tautological that your employer is going to be wealthier than you, so it follows from there. I mean, that is capitalism.

That said, an employee in Field A can certainly beat an employer in Field B in specific cases. There are mid tier bankers earning more than owners of medium sized businesses for example.

edit:

The accounting comment wasn't meant as an insult, by the way, apologies if it came across like that. I have a tendency to be pretty frank.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 18:42 - 04 Oct 2016    Post subject: Re: Ranking universties with colours and metals and stuff Reply with quote
Derivative wrote:
The accounting comment wasn't meant as an insult, by the way, apologies if it came across like that. I have a tendency to be pretty frank.


I didn't take it that way. I know from experience it's like this. One of the reasons behind my big trek in 2009 were the problems I had at work in 2008.

I just felt hollow and empty inside all the time I essentially couldn't give myself a satisfactory answer when I asked myself what am I doing here? Outsiders looking in said I was insane to leave a highly paid well respected profession.

I feel if I stayed grit my teeth and took the BS my boss constantly gave me I'd probably be on £25K now a bit more than I made 7 years ago. I made some alternative choices AND I openly admit I got lucky on some of those choices.

Problem is the 6000 mile commute I do every couple months is a killer Very Happy.
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Derivative
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PostPosted: 19:01 - 04 Oct 2016    Post subject: Re: Ranking universties with colours and metals and stuff Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Outsiders looking in said I was insane to leave a highly paid well respected profession.


Accountancy firms, especially the big 4, have absolutely stellar marketing, and employees seem to be incredibly shy about pay.

The reality in my office was that below senior manager level you couldn't afford a mortgage.

The partners were relatively well off, but not in the way I'd been led to expect. We're talking nice house in the suburbs with a couple of garages, not exactly Rich Kids of Instagram stuff.

Half of the 'outsider effect' is the peculiar way in which people have a tendency to consider their surroundings normal. If you live in a tent then the guy who has a wooden shed is 'highly paid and well respected'.

Then again, it's probably a sensible defense mechanism. Without some ability to think 'this is OK' I'd be in the asylum.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 21:12 - 04 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Will the crap uni's get a brown rating? As I've said before higher education's a scam for most people, it won't change your job prospects, it'll just make sure you have a shit load of debt to start your working life with.

The student visa scam has been going on forever. Get you and your family into the country and never leave.
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Hetzer
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PostPosted: 21:50 - 04 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:
Hetzer wrote:
So they're going to formally recognize that only students with degrees from Oxford and Cambridge won't have to settle for jobs in McD's? Coo, who'd have thought we'd see the day! x3 £9000 training-fee for grill-chef quals. Laughing


There there, calm down. You never made it to gramnar school, but are now a "writer", who apparently makes enough cash from that, to not take any long term benefits other than family credit.

Why so bitter? You're a "writer".


Wow! Wear it on your sleeve why doncha! Laughing
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 22:15 - 04 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:

There there, calm down. You never made it to gramnar school, but are now a "writer", who apparently makes enough cash from that, to not take any long term benefits other than family credit.

Why so bitter? You're a "writer".


Gramnar?
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Hetzer
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PostPosted: 08:45 - 05 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
mpd72 wrote:


Have a think.... what letter is next to N on a QWERTY keyboard. It's a tough one, but try to work out the typo...

I'll give you an hour or so. Wink


Proof-reading. Too much effort? Tch. Mr. Green
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 09:55 - 05 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Excuses eh?

It'll be because he don't understand de lingo. Init.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 13:18 - 05 Oct 2016    Post subject: Re: Ranking universties with colours and metals and stuff Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:


University rankings can be gamed. Percy about a year ago talked about how Queen Mary University gamed its ranking into the Russell group by sacking their decent teaching staff and hiring people who pumped out research. Therefore a higher ranked university doesn't mean better teaching.


Good memory Karma

To add to this: I've shifted to Leeds now (shameless plug) which looks and feels like a much better uni (and in many senses it is) but the teaching quality was far worse last year. QM teaching was all black/whiteboard scrawlings as the lecturer actually taught, whereas Leeds was mostly dull dictation of powerpoints. Really shocked me actually. This year seems much better though, which I guess is a good thing.

Having a quick peek at the Times Higher Education rankings criteria it seems there's a fair weighting between teaching quality and research quality.

There's also a ranking for 'International reputation' which pretty much sets in stone that it's based on arbitrary human metrics of 'coolness'. QM was full of idiots and east London 'yes fam innit bled' types, but that doesn't matter because it's London so its international appeal is arbitrarily inflated.

To conclude: Gold/Silver/Bronze awards based purely on teaching quality and course material would be a good thing.

But this makes it questionable:

Quote:
The rankings will be awarded by a panel of assessors, will last for up to three years and will be based on statistics including dropout rates, student satisfaction survey results and graduate employment rates, including the proportion of graduates who go on to work in high-skill jobs. Some critics argue that none of the indicators directly measure teaching quality.


So it's always going to be skewed towards the universities that have almost globally solidified international recognition - the historic 'top unis' and the ones that happen to be based in capital cities.

Also the graduate employment rates will be skewed towards the unis with the best careers departments who can give a good enough sales pitch to get employers to headhunt their graduates. Again another completely arbitrary quality based on the salesmanship of whoever promotes the uni.

Let's face it, uni stats will always be quite far away from absolute meritocracy.
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Azoth
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PostPosted: 19:52 - 05 Oct 2016    Post subject: Re: Ranking universties with colours and metals and stuff Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
BPP university for instance. IIRC they only offer law and accountancy. It is ranked bottom of the university ranking tables. OTOH they allow you do cram your undergraduate degree into as little as 15 months. It also costs a whole load less too and people can go there and walk out with a degree spending <£10K.

In that who is the smarter person in this case? The person with 30K in debt (just from fees + living costs) or the person with £10K in debt and 15 months debt of living costs?


I agree with you on the other matters, but not in the case of BPP law. What they've done in the case of their shortened degrees is a little more sneaky (or astute, depending on your perspective). In short, they identified the minimum elements that the regulating authority dictated had to make up a 'qualifying law degree'. These elements are modules, or units. Then they strung these together into a single course, and, with their statutory monopoly grant of degree-awarding powers, made it an LLB law degree.

Nothing wrong in doing so - they are just exploiting the situation as they find it. Traditional ('public research') universities have been doing the same thing for a very long time, but with the opposite result. They have artificially stretched out the duration of the qualifying law degree by adding unnecessary modules or units ('of relevant interest') to make it a longer course with a standard length of 3 years. Then, with their statutory monopoly grant of degree-awarding powers, made it an LLB law degree.

The real issue is something else. Why does the market for the BPP shortened law degree exist in the first place? Look at who BPP's customers are. They aren't there to save out on the long-term investment. Rather, they are either excellent students or poor students, who could come up with the readies there and then to pay for a more focussed route into the legal profession. Most of them go on to take BPP's follow-up courses to train to be a solicitor, or for the Bar. It's a racket! Why? Because either daddy can pay for it, or some firm is either paying for them or has agreed to take them on in a training contract or for pupillage once they're done. By contrast, most law students at typical universities aren't even sure which area of law they are interested in, let alone whether there's a job for them at the end of it. BPP will also take the money of overseas students and overseas lawyers who want to practice in the UK. It isn't really like-for-like, and typical school-leavers who choose BPP over other universities turn out to be anything other than typical in their circumstances when put under the spotlight. Either they're really rubbish but could come up with the money, or they're really smart and know what they want to do and hate to waste time, or something's ready and waiting for them via family links or in another country.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 20:44 - 05 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Or you can study via the OU, and bypass the need for A Levels, if you chose party time instead of learny time at college Dance!
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 21:01 - 05 Oct 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jewlio Rides Again wrote:
Or you can study via the OU, and bypass the need for A Levels, if you chose party time instead of learny time at college Dance!


Have you seen the price of the OU these days? Back when I younger the OU was a couple hundred quid per module. Today it costs around the same as a degree from a bricks and mortar university AND is worth less (worth less not worthless)than a degree from bricks and mortar too.

Back in 2011 the entire Middle East and in 2014 the ASEAN didn't consider distance learning degrees to be real degrees.
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