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Marzer |
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Marzer L Plate Warrior
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Azoth |
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Azoth Brolly Dolly
Joined: 07 Jul 2016 Karma :
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Posted: 00:37 - 17 Oct 2016 Post subject: |
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You're looking at the CB400? Fantastic bike for fun times on bendy roads - excellent engine and fantastic 'standard motorcycle' geometry. Out of all the bikes you mentioned, that would be the one I would choose. But that's just because of my style of riding, and the fact I don't need to use motorways usually. If I needed to regularly use motorways, I would pick the CB500 or GS500. The bikes you listed are all chain-driven, so not very economical for long distance use. Reliability should be your main concern..
They all need to have restrictors fitted to meet the A2 power limit, except for one early variant of the CB400: the CB400 Superdream. Source:
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/555336/motorcycle-test-vehicle-list.csv/preview
The onus may be on you at some point to prove you had a restrictor fitted at the time of a police stop. I don't know. In any case, all of them are allowed to be used on an A2 licence if restricted (except that one I mentioned, which doesn't need a restrictor). ____________________ Safety in numbers |
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Marzer |
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Marzer L Plate Warrior
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Azoth |
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Azoth Brolly Dolly
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Marzer |
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Marzer L Plate Warrior
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 06:47 - 17 Oct 2016 Post subject: |
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Honda have built rather a lot of CB400's over the years; some twin's some fours. They are very different bikes!!! and few of them will be all that young, these days.
Two versions of the four cylinder CB400; the early CB400 'four' is air cooled and a 'classic' I'd not recommend for daily use. Later water cooled model was a Japan only market bike never officially imported to the UK. Wonderful little 'exotic' twenty years ago, but not exactly a wonderful every day proposition, being well past first fresh of youth and with poor parts support.
Better bet for all-round liveability as an every day commuter would be the CB500; they are cheap, they are common, they are much more 'contemprary', and were favoured bike of teh schools and courriers, they are pretty well supported.
GS500? Is rather long in the tooth these days. Was favoured by the schools and a tought old thing for the most part; but most have been run into the ground by schools & post test newbs by now.
ER5? Another schools favourite; bit like teh GS lots have been run into teh ground by post test newbs and daily commuters, but there are some better concerved examples out there it seems.
BUT, all pretty accademic; end of teh day you can only buy a bike that some-one offers for sale, that you have enough money to pay them for.
CB500/ER5/GS500's mostly live in the sub £1000 bargain basement these days, where most important consideration is CONDITION of actual bike you are looking at; what state its in now, not what the pundits said it was like when it first left the factory.
So, other than to confirm most things you may want in the A2 world will probably need to be restricted to licence, we probably cant offer very much help without more info.. like how much you got to spend and what 'sprcifically' you have been offered to spend it on. ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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331X2 |
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331X2 Crazy Courier
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Posted: 07:24 - 17 Oct 2016 Post subject: |
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If you're handy with the spanners have a look at all of the 90's 400 bikes (GSXR, CBR, VFR, RVF, ZXR, FZR, Bandit) they're a completely different animal to the commuter twins |
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B0ndy Spanner Monkey
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 11:46 - 17 Oct 2016 Post subject: |
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The GS500 is bang on 35kW. The GS500F would be OK for motorway work, if you can get one that's still in good condition. I wouldn't bet on it though, they were built waaaay down to a price.
If you're going to go down the restricted route, you might as well go big. Again, Suzukis are the obvious candidates. SV650S and GSX600F are both restrictable for A2.
If you're primarily going to be motorway munching then don't discount the Honda Deauville, although they don't tend to come cheap.
What's your budget? ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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carpe_diem |
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carpe_diem Trackday Trickster
Joined: 28 Jul 2016 Karma :
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Posted: 12:19 - 17 Oct 2016 Post subject: |
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Rogerborg wrote: | The GS500 is bang on 35kW. The GS500F would be OK for motorway work, if you can get one that's still in good condition. I wouldn't bet on it though, they were built waaaay down to a price.
If you're going to go down the restricted route, you might as well go big. Again, Suzukis are the obvious candidates. SV650S and GSX600F are both restrictable for A2.
If you're primarily going to be motorway munching then don't discount the Honda Deauville, although they don't tend to come cheap.
What's your budget? |
Depends on how cheap cheap is. I've been tracking prices on fleaBay and you can get what looks like a 'decent' Deauville for between £1,200 and £1,800. I've even seen a couple of Pan Europeans (Pans European?) in there for similar prices. Granted, they're old and have lots of miles, and the fairings might have a couple of scratches, but don't the engines and shaft drives in those bikes last for millions of miles anyway?
Also the Yamaha Diversion 900 for even cheaper prices.
Once I eventually get round to sorting out my test (new baby, recently passed driving test hence no photocard licence at the moment, busy at work before Teff Teffs me to within an inch of my life) I plan to go down the Dullville/Pan/Diversion route... ____________________ Currently riding: Suzuki EN125 | Previous rides: Vespa 125PX, Yamaha SR125 |
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Val |
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Val World Chat Champion
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
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Posted: 23:07 - 17 Oct 2016 Post subject: |
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That is a pretty good price even for a Cat C. I'd want to be sure of being able to get a cheap 35kW restrictor though. ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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nitrosurf |
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nitrosurf Trackday Trickster
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Rogerborg nimbA
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Posted: 07:43 - 18 Oct 2016 Post subject: |
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OP seems to be OK with actual restriction.
Budget is key though, I'm rather expecting "Up to £1000 if absolutely necessary". ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Marzer L Plate Warrior
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Rogerborg nimbA
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Posted: 14:42 - 18 Oct 2016 Post subject: |
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In the ballpark, although I don't know of anyone who's actually bothered dynoing their restricted bike.
However, it's designed to sustain higher speeds comfortably, whereas a GS500 will be nearer its limit at motorway speeds.
The other consideration is that when you get to do your full 'A' tests, if you have a 595cc+ bike claiming 40kW+ as standard (i.e. GSX600F but not a GS00) then you can use it to sit your tests yourself without going via a training school again. ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 07:09 - 19 Oct 2016 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice. |
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Marzer wrote: | I was thinking a GSX600f, would it been restricted not just have the same power as a GS500? |
Going to split this one out for separate post, and technical explanation, because the answer is 'yes' technically restricted to the same power, they have the same 'peak' power. Practically, though, 'no' they don't, as 'peak' power isn't the whole story of how a bike behaves.
An engine has a power curve. Power increases with engine revs. 'Quoted' or 'rated' power they give in the specs and mags is the 'maximum' power an engine may be able to deliver, at wide open throttle and at peak power engine revs; power it might offer above or below those revs will always be less, as it will with the throttle part open.
https://www.motorcycle.com/gallery/gallery.php/d/25119-4/Dyno_Chart_07_EX500.jpg
That's the power trace for a Kawasaki GPz500s, a 60bhp fourstroke twin, which when it was launched in the 1980's was aplauded for offering as much power as the much loved loonie two-strokes, without the weight of the four-stroke 'fours'.
If you look at that power trace, power builds relatively progressively until about 6,5oo rpm, then the power curve steepens, and it 'surges' to the peak power at about 9ooo rpm.
But, when you 'restrict' an engine, you simply chop the top off the power curve, at whatever the power limit is.
If you look at that trace, you would chop the 'hump' off the power trace at 7ooo rpm when it hit 45bhp, 'just' as it was starting to get into its 'sweetspot'.
https://buildandclick.com/assets/images/RD350LC-DYNO.png
That is a power trace for an old RD350LC, a two-stroke, that the GPz500 was squared against when new.
Same sort of 'peak' power, about 60bhp, BUT look at the trace; it's offering barely learner legal 10-12bhp until 5,5oo rpm, then goes crazy, to leap from that to it's 60bhp peak at 9,5oo rpm; the power coming in hard and fast in a 'powerband'. If you were to restrict that to 45bhp, you would chop off the peak of the curve at about 7,ooo rpm, just as it was getting into its stride.
In either case, restricted or un-restricted you have two bikes with the same 'quoted' peak power, BUT, the fourstroke 500, whether restricted or not, has more 'available' power; it has more power accross the rev range you can put to use at any time.
https://images.delkevic.co.uk/product4160_27b.jpg
That is the power trace for a Kawasaki ER5; As labled it peaks at a tad under 45bhp, probably because its a rolling road reading and is showing rear wheel power after losses through the transmission, rather than crankshaft power without them; as stock, it's quoted as having 50bhp at the crank though.
The ER5 engine is the same as fitted to the GPz500, but it is 'De-Tuned' rather than 'restricted'; Kawasaki changed the cam shaft profiles and 'stuff' inside the engine to change the shape of the power trace, and rather than just lop some power off the peak, spread it about a bit accross the rev range; so again, restricted to 45bhp, whilst it might have the same 'peak' power, it has even more 'available' power accross the revs, you can put to use at any time.
So in general, when restricting bike engines, the lower their state of tune, and the closer they are to the restricted limit they are before you restrict, the less 'available' power you will be chucking away by restricting, and you will likely have the more 'powerful' bike for it at the end, in as much as having that much more 'available' power in the low and midrange to put to use.
OK?
https://dynojet.com/graphs/GS500F.jpg
that's a power trace for a Suzuki GS500. Which as standard, probably doesn't need to be restricted at all to be A2 licence complient. 45bhp at peak, and an almost straight line to that from tick-over revs.
https://images.delkevic.co.uk/product2512_27b.jpg
Thats the trace for a teapot GSX600; as stock it has a double ramp, a rather flacid low and mid range building to 45bhp at about 6K rpm where it starts to get into it's stride...
So, GS500, on A2 rides exactly how it should. Bit lack-lustre, but it works. A restricted GSX600, a heavier, sportier bike, I recall being as flat as a witches tit unless you reved the tits off it to get any where, and then, somehwhat hard work to keep in the power to keep it shifting.... which 'restricted' would have its balls lopped off; so it would still be as flat as a witches tit until you got it up into the revs... at which point it would just say "OK, that's IT matey, you can cane me as much as you like, I AINT got no more to give!"
Lugging extra weight about, it's not going to be 'as' eager as the unrestricted 500, in the low and midrange, and then when you get the revs up and get at the power.. frustrating, cos it just aint there no more.
Which I am sure other's will argue about, as they are always wont; BUT point is;
Marzer wrote: | I was thinking a GSX600f, would it been restricted not just have the same power as a GS500? |
'Yes' it would technically have the same 'peak' power.
'No' it wouldn't have the same practical 'available' power
there is power and there is power, and one number doesn't paint the whole story.
What two-stroke fans usually find 'exiting' in two stroke bikes is the drama of that rush of power coming up from almost nothing, and then all being delivered in a sudden surge.
Bikes, with a much more conservative power curve, don't offer that 'all or nothing' contrast, and so dont deliver the same 'character', or 'excitement' even though they may have more peak power, and they might even offer even more increase in power as the revs go up.. AND point to point, offering more power more of the time, they are probably point-to-point 'faster' on a real road.... they just don't feel like it!
If you want that 'drama' and excitement, then an unrestricted GS500 or ER5 probably aint going to deliver it, its just not in it's 'nature'. an unrestricted Aprilla RS125 on the other hand, would probably deliver it in spades, despite being down probably 15bhp or more, that IS it's charecter.
And the numbers alone don't tell THAT story. ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 07:45 - 19 Oct 2016 Post subject: |
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NOW; said in last post you haven't really given us much to help you with. Budget, intended use etc.
Marzer wrote: | Hi guys i appreciate all this help, my budget would be around 2000 give or take a couple hundred |
Gives us a ballpark on budget, but...
Marzer wrote: | I'll be doing motor way trips so comfort and power is necessary. |
Shows a little common misconception and spurious assumption, but still dont help us offer you anything 'useful'.
There's motorway trips and there's motorway trips.
From where I live to the local hospital, is about 10 miles; quickest route is down the bypass out of town, hop onto the M6 to avoid having to go through the middle of Coventry, and then off again one junction later, onto the main duelie and about two miles of that to the hospital gates. If that was my daily commute, that section of motorway would probably be more snarled and going slower than traffic in and out of my street trying to drop kids off at school!
I'd happily tackle THAT motorway work on my 125.... in fact I'd quite happily tackle quite a LOT of motorway work on a 125.. you do NOT 'need power' for motorways!!!
M6 junctions 4 to 10, I believe is THE most heavily used stretch of motorway in the country. That section skirts east Birmingham and links to the M5 that skirts the west, and the M42 that joins teh two and closes the motorway loop around the south of the city. Its a bit like the M25 around London, only traffic actually moves! Hence it being rated as carrying the most cars per mile per day.
From where I live, to go into Birmingham, depending on which bit I was headed to, using one or two of those motorways would probably be a favored route; and again, I would have few qualms doing it on a 125. even heading the 50 miles to my mothers the other side of brum, and doing J2 to J12 of the M6, NOT a problem to me on the 125... regardless of time of day or traffic.
BECAUSE... motorways are just duel carriageways with regulations on them to remove hazards. They dont have pedestrians threatening to push prams out in front of you; cyclists not sure if they are a pedestrian or a road user hopping on and off the pavement; cars backing off driveways; round-abouts, blind bends, or cross roads. The ONLY thing they have is filter slip entry and exit ramps! They are designed (lol) to keep traffic moving at a high average speed.... and when they keep it moving..... they ARE actually very good at it.
Boring as fuck for the most part; but they do keep traffic moving and let you hold a high average speed for mile after mile after mile.
My four-stroke 125, can do a genuine 70mph. I have, on an empty motorway even managed to do that 2up with a pillion, and hold it pretty much from on ramp to off ramp, using the M42 to come back from a bike show in Coalville, our Snowie wanted to go to. And qith squiffy pillion, in the dark, made it a 'nice' run home, and somewhat faster holding that high average speed, rather than trying to take teh 'scenic-route', which in the dark, and lit by only a candle in a jam jar motorbike light isn't all that scenic... just dark! And hazard fraught, and even in good daylight a struggle to hold an average speed up close to the posted speed limits.
Accepting the limits of the vehicle, and a little 125 isn't the most eager to hold 70 for mile after mile, even if it can achieve it, you dont even try! As I do on many a motorway run, even on the 750.. you roll off, and stick the thing in the truck-stack at 55, where most of the trucks are speed governed to stay within the 60mph 'towing' speed limit; and you let the lane dodging audicochs and blitzen-bimmers battle it out trying to hold 80 or stay o,8mph under the licence loosing ton.
THAT is a daft battle to get into on a motorbike of ANY capacity on the motorway; those idiots are half asleep on ordinary roads and dont pay attension to motorbikes there, let alone before they are lullaby-babied into near coma by motorway monotony!
That's an actual danger of a more powerful bike, encouraging you out of the truck stack and into that battle ground, where the main advantage of a motorway... avoiding hazards and avoiding the 'stress' of dealing with 'idiots' aught to be the best thing about'em!!!
Stick it in the truck stack; stick to the double-nickel; let the idiots get on with it; sit back, relax, enjoy the ecconomy, enjoy the miles wafting by at an average over 50mph you wouldn't be able to maintain taking the scenic route.. even on a bigger bike.
And 45bhp of a restricted licence bike? Being somewhat brutal; it's 'enough' to get you out of that truck stack for the odd over-take; you MAY on a more empty motorway have enough to comfortably hold a kiddie carrier 80, but, top wack, you have a 110mph motorcycle that up there in the margins wont have the response to instantly squirt it past Audicoch pulling into the outside lane because he's spotted someone two miles ahead he might pass in the next half hour at his cruise controlled 80. Chrikey I have almost twice that power in my 750, and I would think twice about such rapid roll-ons at that sort of speed.
Like I said, an A2 licence bike gives you enough to 'think' you van get into that game; unfortunately it doesn't give you enough power to get OUT of it.. and you are likely to follow the logic you need even more power to get out of it...
Twenty five years ago, on a 1000cc 120bhp bike, I 'thought' that. "Yeah! I have a 150+ motorcycle here, fuckme off, and I'll open the taps and fuckoff into the sunset!" coming back up the M40 one evening, I had an idiot that did fuckme off, hogging the outside lane, passing wide spaced cars in the middle; then when no more cars to pass staying there and very lazily slewing over; I drew up to pass, and waited and waited, and THEN, he started slewing back! there was another car to pass three miles up... but the door half open, I cracked the taps, and 70 became 90, almost in the thinking.... next thing twat is up my chuff, aggrieved I had passed him; so I wind it on, and 99 comes up without any effort, and he drops back half a car length... I now have to hold that speed, and the idiot finds 4th gear and closes the gap and is back on my number plate..... Oh-Kay.... lets see if you are prepared for a licence looser... and open the taps a bit more and I'm doing 120.... takes a little longer to get there from 99, than it did from 70-90.. and twit falls back, but not long for him to wind up his shit box and be back on my bumper.... 120? thats got to be pretty much your lot.. OhKay... wind on again.... 140, not a lot with four wheels is going to be able to stay with that.... (certainly not back then)... but he did..... So, OK, 155.. I am now almost flat out, and yup twats dropping back... but I am hardly dissapearing into the sunset! 15mph difference, the gap opened up slowly.... and soon as I rolled off, he'd have been back up my chuff... so what do you do? Its a race you CANNOT win... I eventually found an exit ramp, and took it, then found a petrol station to pull into and have a fag. But that twat was approaching the exit ramp almost before I'd reached the top.
More power, more speed; even in severe surplus, does NOT get you out of that game, it just gets you in deeper and ramps the stakes.
Double nickel in the truck stack! Let the world waft by, and the 'idiots' with it. enjoy the lack of stress, enjoy the economy, and enjoy the mile eating high average speed.
You DO NOT need more power for motorways, in ANY situation; from the one junction commuter 'hop' to the longer haul, city skirt, to a long haul intercity treck.
Comfort? Maybe an excuse in there for a bigger bike; but still; a cramped little sports bike, likely to be as uncomfortable on a longer run than a less cramped tiddler.
Somewhat less supple and inordinately less tolerant than I was in my youth; I reckon I can endure the 125, and its a reasonably comfy one, for about 20-25 miles, maybe 45minutes, at a stretch, these days. I use the 750 for long haul work, and I 'can' be in the saddle for hours at a stretch; but another post on the topic recently made me look a bit closer at that, and actually, in like for like use, there's probably not a lot of difference.
I'll tend to use the tiddler for cross town work; and that is particularly tiresome regardless; using the 750 in similar manner recently, I realised that my endurance on that in the same use wasn't any greater; added comfort it has sat back enjoying the scenery on a longer jaunt, not there without the scenery; and the 'battle' of contending with city snarl making it as tiring as using the tiddler.
Another 'run' to a different show on the tiddler, a while back; following a 600 fazer on a route that largely had been part of my daily commute once upon a time; and noting, a) how the 600 never got more than a corner ahead of me; b) how many bludy yellow scamera boxes they have planted in the last ten or fifteen years, c) how 30 zones through villages have crept into the country and been joined by 40 'calming' limits tagged on the end, and the bits in between reclassified from 'unrestricted' to 50 limits; made me seriously wonder just 'what' the seven-fifty was doing for me, the 125 wasn't....
In all honesty, the 125 is barely 'adequete' at everything you might want to do on a bike; and it's 'cheap'... costs me more to insure, but then it costs less to tax, so it still works out cheaper; And for a good 'thrash' its probably a bit more fun. Its certainly less stress when there are yellow piggy banks about!
Otherwise? The added comfort; the added power, yeah? They 'can' make longer haul's less tiresome; and ultimately, it was only the fact that my main riding is longer haul 'touring'; doing shows and meets and rallies; often two-up, usually with a load of camping gear, that 'added' usefulness made a difference. I just wouldn't 'do' that sort of stuff with the 125... I used to.. it can be done.. but too old to put up with the faff of it these days, A-N-D, the kicker, the 750 only costs me about £500 a year to run, 'all in' tax, insurance, MOT, maintenance AND fuel. So I can 'afford' the indulgence of running the bigger bike as the cost of my 'hobby'.
Otherwise I would struggle very very hard to justify a bigger bike over a tiddler or full licence lighter weight; I really would. There IS absolutely NO NEED for a bigger bike... only lots of 'WANT MORE'.. which is fair enough, if you can afford it, AND you actually get the more that is 'useful' or wanted.
If my bike wasn't purely for leisure use; if I had to commute; and I cranked up double or tripple the miles in that daily use; then finding a bike that suited the job, and my purse, would be a lot tricker.
AND THIS IS THE POINT.
You say that power and comfort are a 'need' for motorway work; BUT, how much of your riding is going to be motorway work? Daily? Daily one junction hops? Or daily 30mile town to town trecking? Or are we talking frequent weekend events? Or more 'occasional' holiday tours?
Either way, more power is NOT essential, and comfort and power and engine displacement are not particularly related, AND what is comfortable, incredibly subjective!
It comes down to the compromises you are prepared to make; but first separating needs from wants, in the 'requirements' of the jobs intended.
And you have given us very very little by which we can help select suitable bikes by, other than a couple of pretty nebulous and refutable assumptions.
As I could do pretty much anything I 'needed' and an awful lot of stuff I just 'wanted to' on a 125; the argument you 'need' any bike but what you got already, is pretty slim...
Plenty of bikes you might want, just for wants sake, and that's fair enough if you can afford'em and get the value from the fun they may deliver.
But in maximising the compromise to find something that fullfils most needs as best as, fullfills as many wants as it can along the way, and still does the job... we are stabbing in the dark to guess what might be helpful to tell you....
Other than correcting misconceptions or presumptions as you reveal them.
So WHAT do you need this bike to do for you?
~It's got to cost less than £2K
~It may have to be used on a motorway (which you haven't if on L's expoerienced on a bike yet!
~It must be A2 licence complient....
~A~N~D~?
What's the needs and wants. Whats the job its got to do?
Here and now, my top reccomend for a sub £2K A2 bike would be to point you at the ex-school DAS bikes; ER5's and CB500's. Cheap, possibly half your buy budget; unexiting, uninspiring, but useful 'big' learner-commuters; WHICH probably don't offer very much of anything 'more' than a 125 in any huge measure, BUT are pretty useful all-rounders that would give you a chance to get some big bike miles under your belt and find out for yourself what they do and dont do and what you need more or less of or would like more or less of to better decide what might be 'better' for your needs and wants, and in the mean time not cost too much or cause too much hassle anywhere whilst you get that experience. It's your next bike, not your once and for ever ONLY bike. So, don't look for ideal, look for good enough; and see what in that mold comes your way at a sensible price, and then suck it and see.
But, I think the here and now is you don't really know what's what, and you are giving such scant clues as to what your circumstances are, we have even LESS to go on to suggest what would suit.... and you as yet have still got to get the licence for it anyway! ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 08:14 - 19 Oct 2016 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice. |
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Teflon-Mike wrote: | [Graphs of bikes run at wide open throttle]
But, when you 'restrict' an engine, you simply chop the top off the power curve, at whatever the power limit is. |
If you use a rev limiter.
If you use a throttle stop or carb washers, you'll be running the bike at partial throttle and it will produce less power throughout the rev range.
How much less is a suck-it-and-see. I wouldn't even be confident that the peak power is properly limited by a throttle/carb restriction.
Now that I think about it, didn't we have one chap who said that they had dynoed their bike with 35kW "kickstart engineering" washers fitted and the dynomaths came out closer to the old 25kW limit than the new 35kW one? I may have dreamed that. ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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tom_e |
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tom_e Brolly Dolly
Joined: 27 Feb 2016 Karma :
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 09:53 - 19 Oct 2016 Post subject: Re: Looking for advice. |
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Rogerborg wrote: | If you use a throttle stop or carb washers, you'll be running the bike at partial throttle and it will produce less power throughout the rev range. |
Yes, no, maybe a bit.
Flow restriction will reduce power only when it's impeding flow.
If a washer has an orafice that will flow enough air for 45bhp, then 'in theory' it shouldn't much matter whether the engine is sucking 45bhp's worth of air through it at 4,000 revs where the engine wouldn't make any more any way, or 8000 revs where it would ordinarily be making double.
Ie a flow restriction 'shouldn't' reduce lower rpm power.
It will tend to, as a simple orafice restrictor will tend to offer impediment to flow accross the range from the discontinuity it causes in the induction tract; but it 'can' be negligible; and if you have say a 90bhp engine with a 45bhp restriction washer limiting peak power by 50%, its unlikely it will knock the low and midrange by same 50%.
Shape of washer restricted engine's power curve will tend to track that of the unrestricted one's, pretty closely, until 'near' the restriction power, when it starts to significantly impede flow, and it will round off the corner to the 'plateau' where it chops the top off the power curve, where the engine could still rev, just not making any more power for it.
A rev limiter would chop that off vertically rather than horizontally, and stop the engine reving beyond the power limit.
Throttle stops? Bit more curious. In principle it's using the throttle in the carb to impede flow, and restrict power; same as using 'part throttle' when riding.
Constant Velocity CV carb, raises the carb slide on the pressure difference accross the carb, to keep the 'velocity' of air through the carb 'constant'; Throttle works a butterfly flap to limit flow into the engine; if you crack the throttle wide open on a CV carbed engine, the slide wont immediately 'lift' to let more air through; slide will choke the flow to maintain airspeed, so on a CV carbed engine, a throttle stop restrictor should 'in theory' have even less effect on low and mid-range power than an orafice restrictor plate, as its doing the same thing without added impediment to flow.
On a slide carb engine? Part throttle is limiting power by flow impediment, BUT again if it will flow enough air to supply the air demand at peak power, at lower revs, it has 'surplus' flow capacity, so limiting slide travel to restrict 'peak' wont necessarily restrict low and mid range 'as' much as it does at peak, if much at all.
Get a slide carbed bike to 'bog' at WOT on a long hill, actually closing the throttle some and getting the air-speed through it 'up' can see the bike actually hold speed or even accelerate, so it's possible more low & mid-range power is made at part throttle than at full in some situations.
EFI? Is a law unto itself! How it would behave to throttle stop restriction would probably depend largely on the injection mapping, as much as anything. But most analogous to a CV carb, with a throttle operated butteryfly, then throttle position sensor and airflow meter telling the squirters how much to squirt, but no CV slide keeping air--speed constant, or offering flow impediment, it probably would have more larger effect clipping low and mid-range, than on a carb set up, but still smaller % wise than the peak clipping. ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Marzer |
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Marzer L Plate Warrior
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Marzer |
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Marzer L Plate Warrior
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Marzer |
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Marzer L Plate Warrior
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 06:13 - 20 Oct 2016 Post subject: |
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OK, well from a 55mph chinky, almost anything would be a step up.
But, I think suggestion still stands; 500 commuter twins are as good a place to start as any; look at ER5/CB500/GS500/SV650 as a base-line.
Trawl gum-tree, e-bay, bike-trader and any and all other sites, see whats available, in budget, where you could go see. Check specs and reviews on it; have a ponder, and see what takes your fancy.
As far as restriction is concerned; the UK 33bhp restrict didn't encourage anyone to make bikes to suit it in the decade or more it existed; Euro-wide A2 is more likely to, and we have seen a couple of offerings, but mostly manufacturers have tweeked specs of existing 'full-power' bikes to be able to offer factory restricter kits. So assume you'll most likely have to restrict to A2. That will open up your options, and you'll likely get a better bike for your money that way.
And as above, bikes that are in a lower state of tune, and closer to restriction limit to start with, will take restriction 'better'.
A2 limits were designed strategically to exclude hyper-sports 600's & larger; and they impinge on most 4cyl bikes, bar the old 400 imports, which are a bit of a mine field anyway. The Bandit 6 and XJ600 divvy, though, restrict reasonably well. I'd not be too keen on a Bandit, they usually get covered in anodised tat and thrashed; but a divvy might not be a bad bet; they certainly go for a lot of 'cheaps', and are a comfy old boot for the sort of work you suggest putting one to, and are pretty easy to live with.
As a stepping stone, keeping big chunk of cash in the bank, a divvy could be a pretty good bet; you aught be able to pick up something pretty useful for well under a grand; doesn't matter if it's a bit scruffy, as long as it's mechanically sound, if you're going to run it through the winter and put big miles on it. Same could be said of an ER5 or CB500 though. But that's point.
Don't over think it; see what's about, see how it inspires; almost 'anything' will 'do' give or take a little common; put it to use, see how you use it; enjoy the new experience, use that to inform what might be 'better' for the next, next bike. This one is just the next step, not the last. ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 7 years, 181 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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