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Teflon-Mike
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 Posted: 19:26 - 21 Oct 2016  Post subject: |
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| ThatDippyTwat wrote: | I'm riding on L's, have been since May, will be until probably March. Problem? |
My comment was L's are for Learners to practice for tests' not for numpties to perpetually L-Plate to avoid taking tests.
Your comment implies you are on L's to practice for tests you plan to do; using the provision exactly as intended. So why should I have a problem with that?
| ThatDippyTwat wrote: | I passed my test in Oct '95. |
If you passed (bike) test twenty years back, though, why are you on L's now?
| ThatDippyTwat wrote: | but this young lad may think he's doing something wrong, and that's not on |
Which young lad? only125? His OP suggested he'd just completed CBT and was planning daily commuting. I offered advice L-Plates are to practice for tests, not to avoid them; and if had confidence to commute after just first lesson of CBT, then he aught have confidence he could pass tests; hence, if he didn't have confidence he could pass tests, he MIGHT like to reconsider the plan to dive straight in to commute on L's. Advice, he replied to positively, seeing the sense in it, suggesting he's considering further training.
| ThatDippyTwat wrote: | There's fuck all point in this lad getting an A1 license if he has to do it all again in a few years, while limited to the same bloody bike he has now. At least with A2 you get a bit of power to play with until you take your unrestricted license |
We'll have to agree to disagree on thas one. Turn your own logic upside down; what's the point of doing CBT and NOT doing the A1, if you have the bike to do it on, just to have to do CBT over to keep riding the same bludy bike he has now!
You're valuing the full licence merely by how big a bike passing them lets you ride. There's plenty of good reasons for anyone to take A1 tests; not least, that self booking, and taking tests on your own 125, is no more expensive than a repeat CBT; so IF you dont want or need a higher licence, apart from getting some 'check' on your riding to make sure you are up to par, you wont get if forever L-Plating; you dont have to keep finding time and money to repeat CBT to keep L-Plate entitlement going! Fact that you can ditch the L's, carry pillions, use motorways, or ride abroad if you want, might not be huge benefits, but they are still there. While, it IS a stepping stone to higher licences IF you want to go further.
125only, though, has said he's 24, so he's old enough to do RWYL DAS if he wanted, so A2's a bit redundant for his circumstances, and he wants to use a 125 as a toe in the water to see if he likes and gets on with biking, and maybe a cheap way to work. Which is reasonable enough.
To my mind, advice endorsing going-it-alone on L's, and actually advising not bothering to take that any further or make any attempt to get trained or tested is debasing the value of 125's and suggesting credance should only be given to bigger, more powerful bikes, is what's 'not on'.
| carpe_diem wrote: | Going out on my own on Ls has been a massively helpful experience for me; I've learnt how my bike handles, I've experienced more of the road, and I've got valuable hours of riding under my belt. Should I be banned from doing that just because you and Tef think that it's somehow wrong? |
Err... yeah... black & white world? L's is for learning for tests, not avoiding them... where and when have I said that they shouldn't be used for purpose intended, to which you suggest you are putting them, Carps?
To add some clarity, it's usually well recognised how I promote 125's and endorse spending some time on a tiddler. As Said, I DO NOT have a major issue with unsupervised L-Plating... used as intended to LEARN to pass tests; I have issue with people exploiting the concession to AVOID doing the tests, and the general demeaning of smaller bikes.
It is an unfortunate situation, that the Euro 3DL laws imposed the tiered licence system on us, in the way that it has.
I was opposed to the DAS system when it was introduced in '95, and resisted qualifying as a DAS instructor, because of my oposition, and the trend, even then, for it to be used to pander to the impatient and offer crash courses to prepare riders barely any better than CBT to go do thier early learning on their own on potentially FAR more demanding machinary.
In my personal opinion, the riered licence system, when proposed had a lot of merit; and HAD it been implemented without age restrictions and DAS short cuts, as a truly progressive system, that required riders to work thier way up through the grades, it would have been an awful lot more beneficial, as well as an awful lot fairer.
IMO... the corrolation between age and maturity on a motorcycle is rarely proportional, and often inverted. Younger riders, frequently using a motorcycle as thier sole or main means of every day transport, often have a far larger economic incentive, especially faced with punitive young rider insurance premiums, to be significantly more prudent of what is likely to be their pride and joy, greatest economic asset, than an older rider, more financially affluent, to whom it is a new leisure pursuit on which they can indulge in adolescent fantasies when the mood takes them. The younger, more likely daily rider then, is also more likely to gain more and more wide ranging experience.
IF the tiered licence system was truly progressive; and any rider of any age, could progress through the rankings at whatever pace they had the enthusiasm and determination to; it would level the playing field, and reward younger riders for showing the determination and enthusiasm to work their way to the licence they want, and discourage impatient hobby tourists from thinking that they can dive straight in and have whatever they want right here right now, without having to put in much more effort than cracking out the credit card.
Unfortunately, as implemented the tiered licence system doesn't do that, and retaining unsupervised L-Plating, with the potential for perpetual L-Plating, in contravention of 3DL laws, is a bastardisation of the system.
AS SAID, I have absolutely NO problem with unsupervised L-Plating, for purpose intended, allowing Learners to 'practice' for tests. But, how to keep that and close the loop hole to allow it to be exploited to avoid tests?
In my vision of a better test and licence system, it would probably have to be laid to rest, though. As it stands, the CBT scheme has shown itself to have been of enormous benefit, compared to when I obtained my provisional almost sorry, actually! 30 years ago, when all I had to do was fill out a form at the post office to get my provisional, and buy a bike, and could take to the roads on it, with absolutely NO training or qualification... for up to two years.... that was at least some check against perpetual L-Plating.
Intent of the CBT scheme was to make 'some' basic training compulsory, and to 'encourage' riders to take further training to test standard. In that, the CBT has significantly failed, where DAS has succeeded, but only by dangling the attraction of instant access to big bikes for it.
It was absolutely bizarre and ironic to my mind that prior to 3DL, people could take tests on a 125 and be awarded a full A entitlement licence for it, merely with 2 year 33bhp probation, YET still, so many opted to L-Plate indefinitely and then 'Do DAS'!!!
However... the CBT scheme has failed and is still failing to encourage riders to take further training, and is counterproductive encouraging them to 'go it alone', and perpetually L-Plate.
Back to my vision of a better test and licence system; If it is conceded that it is 'acceptable' for riders to be granted 'defacto' 125 entitlement for no more than CBT, but not 'ideal', why half arse the job?
The basic CBT syllabus is good, and does work, it just doesn't 'quite' go far enough. So, expand the CBT course, and raise the standard required to 'pass' it. Precedent for 'approved' instructors to award a riding qualification was set in the 1982 learner laws, when prior to CBT, the 'Part 1' test was devolved to DSA approved school instructors. That same precedent COULD be utilised to permit schools to effectively 'test' 125 candidates, and award a 'certificate of completion', for a suped up CBT, that could be surrendered to DVLA to be granted A1 entitlement. That would bring the system in line with actual 3DL requirements. At the expense of unsupervised L-Plating.
It would however mean that slower students who would benefit from extra practice, would have to bear the cost of paying for that under instructor supervision, and make motorcycling that bit 'less' accessible to many.
In order to keep motorcycling accessible and low cost, I would preffer to see unsupervised L-Plating retained; BUT, suggested revision would be for the DL196 CBT cert to be provided with a much shorter validity period, say two months, rather than two years, to encourage riders to use the provisional entitlement as intended, to practice for tests, and encourage them to go back for FUTHER training, rather than repeat the SAME damn training! When the school signs them 'off' then, they could send the Cert back to DVLA to get thier licence endorsed with the full entitlement.
Yup.. it needn't make getting a licence 'that' much more onerous or expensive; though it would pull forwards the 'burden' to get the training and get the licence.
And with current rules not offering much incentive to do A1, and folk sitting it out to 'Do-DAS', there would be even less incentive, as long as DAS provisions were retained for higher entitlements. But in my vision, it wouldn't, and gaining A1 would be prerequisite qualification to obtaining an A2 or RWYL A... and, candidates for those licences would be far better prepared and bulk of 'training' and practical experience obtained, so that they need not be so onerous to obtain, and again, could be devolved to schools to award through completion of higher training schemes, through continuous assessment; as was actually proposed as part of 3DL at one point.
Such a scheme, might even allow candidates similar privilege of unsupervised L-Plating on A2 or RWYL A class bikes, on short term provisional entitlement validated by a school signed off 'training cert'; to again, allow candidates to practice without the need to pay someone just to watch them wobble.
Under such a scheme, without the punitive age restrictions, or DAS pandering to the impatient; the test syetem would be truly progressive, it would significantly avoid riders taking to the road with the scantest of training, it would encourage riders to take training, and to do so at a rate that suits their rate of learning, and to practice between lessons; and a keen and conscientious teenager, COULD get a RWYL 'A' entitlement, within a few months, IF they proved they deserved it; Middle-Aged hobby tourists looking for quick thrills, would on the other hand find it slightly more demanding than just booking a week off work and cracking out the credit card, and if they wanted a RWYL licence for the odd sunny Sunday, likely find they have to put in the leg work and crank up some miles and experience to prove they deserve it.
BUT, those are my personal thoughts and ideas on the topic.
As said, I dont have ANY problem with unsupervised L-Plating, used as intended to practice for tests; my only issue with it is it being exploited to AVOID tests. And attitudes and advice that condone it being used to avoid tests, and devaluing 125ing, and suggesting that big bikes and big bike licences are the only things worth getting trained and tested for.
FWIW, though, no, mummy & daddy didn't pay for my licence. Not that you can 'buy' a licence. My enthusiasm to get on two wheels saw me doing umpety part time jobs, whilst still at school, to afford to buy my own trials bike and compete on it; in the face of parental adversity; then to pay to do a full rider-training course, when I was old enough, and not actually have enough cash left to buy a road bike; then suffer the set backs of having the bike nicked, and 6month test waits when I did find the money for one, at a time they introduced the 'pursuit' test, without actually having enough examiners qualified to test anyone!
Also FWIW I spent three years paying for my octane addictions driving seven and a half ton & draws, whilst I was at college. Having been asked to shift a 75ton rig in the yard, No... NO bludy way, does even THAT suggest I might safely take such a vehicle out on the road without any sort of training or qualification to do so!!!
TBH I think the L-Plate is probably wasted on you, I think, you don't want to learn; you just want affirmation of what you think you already know, and that is that you are a 'safe' road user and shouldn't have to be inconvenienced by any of this 'unnecessary' red tape, hassle or cost to get a new group....
Good luck with the training & tests, if you ever get round to them, if that attitude remains ingrained. Really.. I wish you luck! Old dogs and new tricks is a tough one!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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ThatDippyTwat
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Posted: 21:23 - 21 Oct 2016  Post subject: |
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| Teflon-Mike wrote: | If you passed (bike) test twenty years back, though, why are you on L's now? |
Ban number 3 was for 120 on the back wheel past an unmarked car, (3AM, empty dual carrigeway, car was driving like a wanker. Sadly, this was before the advent of helmet cameras or he would have been the one losing his license). Seems I pissed off posh people enough to take my license away for 3 years and make me retake my test. When they say retake it, they're not pissing around, I thought it would just be MOD2, but no, it's the full monty of tests, back to a provisional.
We will agree to disagree. You seem to imply you are an instructor, and therefore have a financial incentive to encourage people get lessons to take *additional* tests. |
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Rogerborg
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| Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr
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Posted: 11:38 - 22 Oct 2016  Post subject: |
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| ThatDippyTwat wrote: | We will agree to disagree. You seem to imply you are an instructor, and therefore have a financial incentive to encourage people get lessons to take *additional* tests. |
Were. & no financial incentive.
Compulsory Basic Training was a proposal for the 1982 125 Learner-Laws; but without any commercial bike schools offering bike training, at the time, it wasn't a viable regulation. Instead they introduced the 'Part 1' test, and devolved testing to 'approved training bodies' in order to try and stimulate creation of Bike Schools under Thatcherite private enterprise initiative........
Few pre-existing 'bike schools' were usually BMF supported rider-groups, run on a volunteer basis.
Mentioned I signed up to do a full rider training course as soon as I was old enough to get my road licence; that was incredibly rare at the time, and rarer still that school I went to rented bikes to do it on.
Discovered through my school-boy trials, where I was wheeling 250 trials bike, with the drive chain in my pocket, after 'chat' with with local plod, to the railway station to stick it in the guards van to haul up to Small Heath in Brum, where Vale Onslow had managed to get a 'Youth Program' to let kids ride trials bikes around a bit of the old Beeza factory, down boi 'cut, to keep them off the streets.. and Local BMF shared the shed, and offered Part 1 on a bit of the site and did road training out of it.
At 16, with umpety years off-road, doing the 125 'thing' seemed a bit pointless to me; so renting bike to do full training course and tests, seemed like a 'smart' way to save hassle buying a 125, which 'then' weren't all too common, the law that begged them only being 5 years old, and what was about tended to be rather expensive, and pretty shit! Would have worked great, if the place hadn't gone bankrupt, leaving me without a ride when I got a test date! So small set-back, until I started Uni & bought a 125, on the knock, on promise of a summer placement job. Bumped into a couple of my old instructors when I had that, and they were trying to start up again to do the 'new' CBT; and went out with them for road training once a month or so (when the bike wasn't AWOL!) to keep test fresh whilst waiting for a date under then new 'pursuit' rules. Bit of a 'joke' then , that I might as well be an instructor, turning up so regularly, and so far 'beyond' being a learner, and only on L's 'cos of the test date 'hassle', I was spending Sunday afternoons doing 'advance rider training'; so that when I did finally get my licence I was pointed at IAM and told to come back when I'd had my licence long enough to instruct.
Conveniently by then, I was working for Lucas, with a few other Brummie BMF'ers.. so that's how I got into instructing; as a volunteer. I have never been 'paid' to instruct; and for what the job may pay, geez? its not a job you do to get rich!
Typical DAS course these days is what? About £600 for a four day course? Double that up as the school could teach two at a time; that's still only £300 a day, less than £70K a year 'gross' IF you can keep an appointment book filled with two students a day, 45 weeks of the year!
.... take off the business overheads; DSA approvals, public liability insurance, maintaining instructor & student bikes; paying rent on a training site etc etc etc... you don't have a particularly wonderful 'business plan', and certainly not one that is likely to pay an instructor even NMW out of it, let alone a professional one!
One of the reasons I did it as a volunteer! Crikey, I made more than that 'on the lump' when I was at college; dragging plant between building sites! I was certainly NOT going to give up a well paid 9-5 office job as an engineer to watch people wobble in all weathers!
Even now, schools are not particularly viable economic entities, and to make ends meet, many of the chaps that do do it 'full time', can only do so because they are supported by early retirement pension, or second jobs.
I doubt that there are very many at all, who have any great financial motive for motorcycle instructing; its a vocation, most will do for the love of, not the money. If the money mattered that much, they just wouldn't do it! they'd be better off stacking shelves in Tesco's!
I WILL 'rise' to your starring *Additional* tests, as I completely agree with you. The system we have is a bastad mongrel.
Making folk go back and re-do the same basic training they had to to ride on L's to maintain a 'defacto' lightweight licence is ridiculous and doesn't do bugger all to make them take even one step forwards.
The tiered licence system, with the same 'tests' used to qualify for the different entitlements, the only difference the requirements on the bike you take test on, is another mongrel.
Irony that you can take the A2 test on a restricted ER6, then turn up two years later and take the same tests, on the same bike, with a throttle stop the twist grip probably never reaches on either test, is ridiculous.
10/10 for effort, there was a lot of right ideas in the tiered & progressive licencing system.... right up until the politicians got involved!!!
Suggested 'vision' for a better progressive test and licence system, based around 'incremental' training, then? Is only 'my' vision of how the system could be organised to be truly progressive; and staged so that access to the lower groups could be made a little 'easier'. But we don't live in an ideal world.
For you? Well, they are only 'additional' cos you was a silly boy, wasn't you!
Takes us off on another topic; and it's another bit of rather mongralised legislation. I actually though it was quite a good idea, when I first came across the scheme of 'Driver Correction' in Canada in the '80's... how I got to learn to drive in a 6.6 Transam... it's owner was a mate of my Dad's who'd run out of Driver-Correction courses to keep his licence if he got stopped one more time! So I got to be his 'ring & ride' for the summer!!!
As implemented then and there; IF you got yourself pulled; Malcolm the Mountie gave you a choice; if you plead guilty on the spot, you got a penalty ticket, fine and points, much like here, with a ban if you accrued too many points in any set time period. BUT, when you went to pay the fine, and get your licence stamped, you could opt at the office for a Driver Correction course instead, and I believe there was a space on the ticket Mountie gave you for them to 'suggest' what Driver Correction you should have. Take the ticket, endorsed by the office to a driving school; pay the course fee, complete it to the instructors satisfaction, take it back to the office, they stamped it off No-Further--Action, filing the course completion form and stamping it off your driver record.... you only got 'one' chance for each course & I think there were something like a dozen courses. BUT pay the course fee, and complete the course; you didn't get points on your licence.
Course fees, were 'reasonable' and less than the fine, so you were better off both ways doing a course; AND, unlike UK 'Speed Awareness' courses when we got'em, they WERE a propper driver course, not sitting through a classroom waffle for an afternoon.
I believe in New-Zealand, maybe Oz, they have a quite wonderful 'New Driver' system; I think new drivers can get their licence at 14, but they get a 'Driver's Log Book', bit like a Private Pilots hours log; then they have restrictions on their licence, like not being able to carry passengers, and a driver 'kerfew' so they aren't allowed to drive in the dark; or use certain roads, or exceed certain speed limits; BUT rather than getting the 'full' licence in one hit passing one test; they have to get an instructor to fill in sections of their driver's log to say what they have done and learned, and 'approved' instructors can stamp off particular restrictions, when they think they have made the grade; THEN when they have completed all the 'continuous assessment' exercises in the book, they have to go and show it to their equivalent of a DSA examiner, who can tailor their test to what instructors might have thought 'weak points'; and complete that drive to get thier 'full' licence and ditch the L-Plates.
They then have a New driver Probation, much more sophisticated than ours; and on 'P-Plates' have to maintain the Driver's log, and a coppa can stop them, and put an entry in their log, rather than banning them or fining them; which may be to reccomend another lesson on something, which an instructor giving that lesson can add to in the log; then they have to take the book to teh office and get it signed off, to get their full licence 'endorsed' and be able to ditch the P-Plate and drive without 'restrictions'.
Which seems all rather 'sensible' to me...
Many years ago, comparing different driver systems in different countries, I recall a 'quip' on the difference between 'Teutonic' systems, and 'Latin' ones; in which under Latin systems 'Laws' seem more for advisement than adherence, do what you like... but don't fuck up.. cos if you do, well, they may shrug it off, or they could come down hard on you! Under the Teutonic, everything has to be rigidly regulated, the law is a pedant; BUT if you fuck up, then penalties tend to be just as pedantic so take your medicine, you knew what to expect! So if you are going to speed.... do it in Germany, rather than Italy!
In England? You take your chances mate! Like the language its a mongrel of Latin and Teutonic that is a law unto itself, and you are likely to get neither a Latin shrug, or Teutonic 'tolerance'!! 
| Rogerborg wrote: | He made the tea once, and I suspect they may even have given him a clipboard to hold for a few minutes. |
I only made the tea when I took Snowie over to do her CBT; Nigel was quite proud of the fact that, when the (real) school he rented the site from condemned the old rotten porta-cabin we'd been allowed to do the 'classroom' bits of CBT in... which itself had been a huge improvement over the picnic table on the playground we'd frozen at before trying to hold paper down with quick chilling thermos flasks and such; they'd let him have a propper class room and a KEY to the staff kitchen! And a TV to show the 'safety' DVD's the DSA had been sending him!
I always had my own clip-board. I was very proud of it. It was apart of an official 'MOTUL-Suzuki' supported rider promo pack.. I almost cried when No1-Son sat on it and cracked it in two!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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