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arry
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PostPosted: 09:55 - 05 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote:

Young drivers have been crashing and dying for the last 40 odd years. It's not gone up.


Key word dying. They don't die any more, and nor do their 4 mates that also got air lifted out of the upside down wreck.

It is changing, it has changed, dramatically. If you haven't noticed that then you've not been paying attention.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 09:59 - 05 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
arry wrote:

Key word dying. They don't die any more, and nor do their 4 mates that also got air lifted out of the upside down wreck.

It is changing, it has changed, dramatically. If you haven't noticed that then you've not been paying attention.


Got any sources on this that haven't been provided by the insurance company?

People got spazzed in the olden days too.
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arry
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PostPosted: 12:57 - 05 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Without wanting to sound rude or anything; to spend my weekend showing you stats that you wouldn't believe anyway to prove liability claims inflation - mmm, not so much inclined.

It's not my problem whether you believe it or not, or whether you feel you've got a valid argument. At the end of the day, it's not an argument I've the stomach for, I'm afraid.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 16:43 - 05 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
arry wrote:
Without wanting to sound rude or anything; to spend my weekend showing you stats that you wouldn't believe anyway to prove liability claims inflation - mmm, not so much inclined.

It's not my problem whether you believe it or not, or whether you feel you've got a valid argument. At the end of the day, it's not an argument I've the stomach for, I'm afraid.


It's not my problem that you have a different opinion and seem to feel quite sorry for the poor old insurance companies. Do you happen to work in that industry? Smile

I'll continue to believe that insurance is licensed robbery, and it's especially rife at the moment. I'm sure they're in no danger of withdrawing cover for younger drivers given that the more of them that crash, the more they can pass claims on to their own legal departments, repair departments, and provide hire vehicles at inflated rates.

As an example just removed a bike from an insurance policy, but I don't get a refund for the remaining cover even though they are now less exposed. Go figure. Rolling Eyes
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arry
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PostPosted: 18:15 - 05 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
And there we go, straight into the sperge which is why I just choose not to engage in these threads any more Laughing


Stool cory bro
Last week I was sat on a train and there were two guys standing up by the side of my seat. Both of them were talking cars, neither of them knew the subject particularly well, but both engaged in conversation as if they were experts in the field of their chosen subject.

As conversation developed - man 1 regaled the story of having his car serviced in a local garage. He was angry that the garage had changed his brake fluid, charging him £50, and then when he picked his car up they told him in the next few months he'd need a new set of front discs and it would be £200 for them to be replaced. HANG ON A SECOND! He said. You've just charged me £50 to change my brake fluid and now when my discs need doing you're going to throw that down the drain and charge me all over again! He tried to tell me I didn't know what I was talking about! Says man 1, to man 2, who is nodding in agreement. Rip off merchant - I shan't be going back there! Says man 1, temper rising just at the thought of the injustice of it all.

Of course, the mechanic has been in business 20 years, has been there seen it and done it, and lived it every day. He knows full well, as does anyone with half an ounce of mechanical knowledge, that there would be no need to replace the brake fluid for a simple disc change. But regardless of what he told the customer, he wasn't going to win him over - because garages, they're all rip off merchants, and any money spent with them is always a grudge purchase.


Are you starting to see the analogy?



Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote:

As an example just removed a bike from an insurance policy, but I don't get a refund for the remaining cover even though they are now less exposed. Go figure. Rolling Eyes


Go figure - you signed up to a contract with short period cancellation rates, through a broker / intermediary with high administration fees, because it was probably the cheapest out of the top of the price comparison site - AMIRITE?
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Kickstart
The Oracle



Joined: 04 Feb 2002
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PostPosted: 19:03 - 05 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
arry wrote:
Go figure - you signed up to a contract with short period cancellation rates, through a broker / intermediary with high administration fees, because it was probably the cheapest out of the top of the price comparison site - AMIRITE?


Probably , but when most of the companies have such dodgy terms and conditions, it would take months to sort through all the small print to sort out which ones don't have the dodgy terms.

Of course this is why there is meant to be the option to return online purchases when you find the item is not as would be expected, but the insurance industry seems to have managed to bypass that restriction and now can charge pretty excessive cancellation feels even in these circumstances.

It is insurance and as such groups risk. When determining that risk gets that invasive and that specific then it hardly counts as sharing the risk.

All the best

Katy
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 19:19 - 05 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
arry wrote:
And there we go, straight into the sperge which is why I just choose not to engage in these threads any more Laughing


Stool cory bro
Last week I was sat on a train and there were two guys standing up by the side of my seat. Both of them were talking cars, neither of them knew the subject particularly well, but both engaged in conversation as if they were experts in the field of their chosen subject.

As conversation developed - man 1 regaled the story of having his car serviced in a local garage. He was angry that the garage had changed his brake fluid, charging him £50, and then when he picked his car up they told him in the next few months he'd need a new set of front discs and it would be £200 for them to be replaced. HANG ON A SECOND! He said. You've just charged me £50 to change my brake fluid and now when my discs need doing you're going to throw that down the drain and charge me all over again! He tried to tell me I didn't know what I was talking about! Says man 1, to man 2, who is nodding in agreement. Rip off merchant - I shan't be going back there! Says man 1, temper rising just at the thought of the injustice of it all.

Of course, the mechanic has been in business 20 years, has been there seen it and done it, and lived it every day. He knows full well, as does anyone with half an ounce of mechanical knowledge, that there would be no need to replace the brake fluid for a simple disc change. But regardless of what he told the customer, he wasn't going to win him over - because garages, they're all rip off merchants, and any money spent with them is always a grudge purchase.


Are you starting to see the analogy?



Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote:

As an example just removed a bike from an insurance policy, but I don't get a refund for the remaining cover even though they are now less exposed. Go figure. Rolling Eyes


Go figure - you signed up to a contract with short period cancellation rates, through a broker / intermediary with high administration fees, because it was probably the cheapest out of the top of the price comparison site - AMIRITE?


As it happens I renewed with them this year because I was too lazy to go through the usual insurance comparison site merry-go-round. Their bumming didn't seem too bad (they used lube this time) so I went with it. Thumbs Up

As you clearly have insider knowledge, enlighten me as to how hard done by and living on the breadline these companies are? It certainly doesn't seem that way from the outside.

Also your anecdote about the brakes doesn't seem to relate to my insurance situation. ..

(To be honest if they work out cheaper again this year, then I'll go with them again, but at least I'll be shopping around this time).
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Last edited by Wafer_Thin_Ham on 19:24 - 05 Nov 2016; edited 1 time in total
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arry
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PostPosted: 19:21 - 05 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Kickstart wrote:

Probably , but when most of the companies have such dodgy terms and conditions, it would take months to sort through all the small print to sort out which ones don't have the dodgy terms.

Of course this is why there is meant to be the option to return online purchases when you find the item is not as would be expected, but the insurance industry seems to have managed to bypass that restriction and now can charge pretty excessive cancellation feels even in these circumstances.


Wouldn't disagree in the slightest about them being dodgy terms and conditions - would disagree on not being able to sort wheat from chaff though; I seem to manage it.

14 day cooling off period is there but again, I agree with you, when those regulations came in I was hoping for an end to short period cancellation rates entirely on the grounds of unfair contract condition, but alas it was not to be.

It's interesting that people assume that because I work within the industry I'm in total support of all the things that are bad about it. I'm not - and in fact it's a huge driver for me having gotten out of motor insurance in its entirety and moved onto specialist lines where you have to engage a lot more with the industry sector you're working with. But despite having intricate knowledge that most will never possess, I won't tend to share it these days - not worth trying to convince anyone of anything when it comes to insurance.
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arry
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PostPosted: 19:27 - 05 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote:

As you clearly have insider knowledge, enlighten me as to how hard done by and living on the breadline these companies are? It certainly doesn't seem that way from the outside.


Most motor books are posting EBITDA's of circa 14% but some have done significantly better. Some of course have done significantly worse. But it depends really on what you're classing as 'these companies' - in my world, the interactions from policyholder to ultimate insurer can traverse seven levels; yes, seven. The guy one up from the policyholder is doing dandy, he's taking no risk, and keeping all the commission; further up the chain if it's an unprofitable sector and you've ended up with a bigger book of it than you should have then things can get pretty messy. As an example, 'I' lost a consortium of insurers some £20m in 2014.
Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote:
Also your anecdote about the brakes doesn't seem to relate to my insurance situation...


The anecdote wasn't supposed to relate to your situation.

Last edited by arry on 19:27 - 05 Nov 2016; edited 1 time in total
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 19:27 - 05 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
arry wrote:

Wouldn't disagree in the slightest about them being dodgy terms and conditions - would disagree on not being able to sort wheat from chaff though; I seem to manage it.

14 day cooling off period is there but again, I agree with you, when those regulations came in I was hoping for an end to short period cancellation rates entirely on the grounds of unfair contract condition, but alas it was not to be.

It's interesting that people assume that because I work within the industry I'm in total support of all the things that are bad about it. I'm not - and in fact it's a huge driver for me having gotten out of motor insurance in its entirety and moved onto specialist lines where you have to engage a lot more with the industry sector you're working with. But despite having intricate knowledge that most will never possess, I won't tend to share it these days - not worth trying to convince anyone of anything when it comes to insurance.


I've not said you're in support of it....more that you seem to be saying they'd pull cover for younger drivers as it's not cost effective for them to be covered. If anything they're the most profitable? (High premiums, more people to invoice when they bin it etc.)

I get you don't want to spend your weekends settling internet arguments about your work. Do it on work time on Monday morning. Razz Wink
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arry
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PostPosted: 19:30 - 05 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote:

I've not said you're in support of it....more that you seem to be saying they'd pull cover for younger drivers as it's not cost effective for them to be covered. If anything they're the most profitable? (High premiums, more people to invoice when they bin it etc.)

I get you don't want to spend your weekends settling internet arguments about your work. Do it on work time on Monday morning. Razz Wink


Laughing Fair point - although I wish I had time.

Again, a little knowledge / dangerous thing. Who are you thinking young drivers are profitable for?

In 2007/8 capacity for younger drivers dried up severely - it'll happen again soon, as the market is starting to harden as the underwriting result continues to tank.

Brokers / intermediaries with delegated authority schemes are busy filling their boots with it - for sure they are - and you're right, they're doing very nicely indeed out of it. But they're not the ones taking the risk and losing their shirt.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 19:39 - 05 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
arry wrote:

Laughing Fair point - although I wish I had time.

Again, a little knowledge / dangerous thing. Who are you thinking young drivers are profitable for?

In 2007/8 capacity for younger drivers dried up severely - it'll happen again soon, as the market is starting to harden as the underwriting result continues to tank.

Brokers / intermediaries with delegated authority schemes are busy filling their boots with it - for sure they are - and you're right, they're doing very nicely indeed out of it. But they're not the ones taking the risk and losing their shirt.


My suspicion/perception is that a lot of brokers, or owners of brokers/insurances companies also have sister companies either overtly or covertly that deal with the legal claim, accident repair, and vehicle hire side of things. Perhaps this is tin foil hat/cynical, but to my mind it would make an ideal business model. Insurer says we have to charge this as we're getting shafted elsewhere for example legal fees and car hire is going up), but in reality the money ends up in the pocket of the same person as they own the other two companies anyway (hence the insurance industry can say they're not making a profit).

How do you mean capacity for younger drivers dried up? In terms of claims made v premiums paid? (Sorry if I'm being daft).

Interesting point. I suppose a lot of people see "broker" as "insurance company".
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Jmoan
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Joined: 18 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: 16:31 - 07 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
arry wrote:
Jmoan wrote:

The only mental thing here are these increasingly daft and illegitimate demands on how people get around.


Or indeed the persistent argument that any form of transport is actually needed. People did just fine when cars were a luxury item less than 50 years ago, whereas nowadays every member of the family NEEDS to have their own personal mobility and an average household must have 2.4 cars.


50 years ago people could hop on a motorbike and be on their way.
Look at the mess it's in now.
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