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Lord Percy |
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Lord Percy World Chat Champion
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
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Posted: 21:51 - 29 Mar 2017 Post subject: |
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M.C wrote: | A tiny fraction of the billions corporations make |
<Arec Bawdwin>And the corporations, they're all corporationy.</Arec Bawdwin>
The billions of what?
I really don't know how to make this any simpler.
Are you honestly under the impression that money equals things?
Let's take all the 'money' on the planet, put it in big spreadsheet, then divide it up exactly equally.
Great, now everybody lives in a mansion, has a flying car, and there's no famine or disease or war over resources, because money equals things.
Right? ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
Last edited by Rogerborg on 21:54 - 29 Mar 2017; edited 1 time in total |
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- Super Spammer
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Posted: 22:01 - 29 Mar 2017 Post subject: |
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Lord Percy wrote: | Polarbear wrote: |
It certainly isn't. People in poor, starving countries breed as many babies as possible in the hope one or two will survive and look after them in their old age. They expect children to die, they hope enough survive.
Birth control would not be used. |
Yeah I think this is pretty much it. Learned it in geography class about 15 years ago and I doubt much has changed since then.
Improving quality of life is what fixes it.
On the topic of UK birth rates, I just had a wee google and found this, which is sort of alarming. It's alarming because the UK population is still rising even against a long time birthrate of <2.0, which means immigration numbers must be gigantic.
https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20160105160709/https://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/resources/tfr3811v2_tcm77-314919.png |
A couple more points. Firstly that ignores the fact that the birth rate is highest in fucktards, Muslims and other immigrants. Secondly, it assumes the official immigration figures are honest and correct.
You understand that border exit checks were introduced two years ago, to give accurate immigration figures? Why then did the government change their mind and stick with the current, deliberately low reading innaccurate guesswork method?
I think anyone with half a brain knows the reason. ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
Jaguar S Type 3.0 V6 Sport R, VW Transporter T5 GP LWB Shuttle 140ps DSG. |
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Lord Percy |
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Lord Percy World Chat Champion
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M.C |
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M.C Super Spammer
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Posted: 22:45 - 29 Mar 2017 Post subject: |
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Rogerborg wrote: | M.C wrote: | A tiny fraction of the billions corporations make |
<Arec Bawdwin>And the corporations, they're all corporationy.</Arec Bawdwin>
The billions of what?
I really don't know how to make this any simpler.
Are you honestly under the impression that money equals things?
Let's take all the 'money' on the planet, put it in big spreadsheet, then divide it up exactly equally.
Great, now everybody lives in a mansion, has a flying car, and there's no famine or disease or war over resources, because money equals things.
Right? |
Money equals infrastructure, schools etc., stuff that would actually help people. Superyachts on the whole tend not to.
mpd72 wrote: | If the issue was purely birth control, how do all the other civilisations in remote areas, free from Geldof interference survive without mass starvation?
The issue is stupidity, coupled with false expectations about aid propping up rates of reproduction several times over reality. |
Such as? Why did we used to have families of 8 children etc., was it because only 6 would survive or was it because every time you jizzed inside your victorian mrs she was likely to pop out a baby? |
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Polarbear |
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Polarbear Super Spammer
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smegballs |
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smegballs World Chat Champion
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grr666 |
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Polarbear |
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M.C |
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Sun Wukong |
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Sun Wukong World Chat Champion
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Posted: 03:46 - 30 Mar 2017 Post subject: |
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Polarbear wrote: |
A revolution or a major war every now and again is a good thing. Shakes up the people in power. Gets rid of the cannon fodder at the bottom. Settles society down for the next few generations.
Killing is what humans do best. |
https://www.ruthlessreviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/snowpiercer-an-audacious-sci-fi-blockbuster.jpeg
I am also disheartened by the population growth in third world/developing countries.
The thing is, infant mortality IS the birth control in these countries. When they removed malaria in the last century, there were population explosions in every area, leading to famine.
I got very frustrated working with do-gooders in India last year, who couldn't see the issue at all and thought every birth was magical.
As said, double everyone's wage in a country and nobody improves.
However, the issue is that living in a consumerism based capitalist model, a lot of available resources are mis-used on Ipads and Lamborghinis.
Yes, supply and demand, growth of economy etc. However, an idealist could think of a great many better ways for humanity to better itself.
Most modern wealth creation seems to be built on exploiting wage imbalances, so why would they bother to correct them?
But you're all right, there is no way to do anything constructive until we find a way to curb population growth. Look at the stigma against how China did it, now India is the most populous country and has no such control. ____________________ Top cat
"Hard times lead to hard people. Hard people lead to good times. Good times lead to weak people. Weak people lead to hard times." Smegballs
"Oh and STE balloons would be one of the nicer things we would receive at the office, the amount of dog turd in jiffy bags is not funny." Jsmith86 |
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grr666 |
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
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Posted: 07:24 - 30 Mar 2017 Post subject: |
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M.C wrote: | Money equals infrastructure, schools etc. |
I feel like we're having a complete failure to communicate.
I'll use short paragraphs, let's see if we can get this through.
Money is numbers. OK, let's give Dindu some numbers.
A road appears under him? A school springs up around him?
By magic? The numbers become tangible objects?
No, someone has to build them. Somebody local to Dindu.
Is it Dindu? Is it hell. Dindu would rather sit in the shade knocking back Soma.
Give him numbers, and he will trade those numbers for things that other people have made, often people a long way away.
The numbers won't make Dindu any more productive. They won't incentivise him to build that road or that school.
Quite the opposite. Giving Dindu numbers enables him to do nothing.
Crazy thought, but perhaps people are, in general, as wealthy as their own efforts entitle them to be? ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
Last edited by Rogerborg on 12:57 - 30 Mar 2017; edited 1 time in total |
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Lord Percy |
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Lord Percy World Chat Champion
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Posted: 12:55 - 30 Mar 2017 Post subject: |
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
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Posted: 17:09 - 30 Mar 2017 Post subject: |
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Lord Percy wrote: | It's as if the concept wage suppression and erosion of workers' rights were both eradicated from your mind once you hit the "I'm alright Jack" stage of life. |
At what amount of wealth would you, Percy, yes, you, feel that you should voluntarily give away the excess?
Not buying a copy of the Big Issue now and again. Not advocating that everybody in Shitlordia should be taxed more.
You, personally. When would you say "No, I have enough, give all the rest to some deserving urchins." ?
This is another of these non-rhetorical questions, although the answer is always going to be theoretical. ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Lord Percy |
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Lord Percy World Chat Champion
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Posted: 17:43 - 30 Mar 2017 Post subject: |
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Rogerborg wrote: | Lord Percy wrote: | It's as if the concept wage suppression and erosion of workers' rights were both eradicated from your mind once you hit the "I'm alright Jack" stage of life. |
At what amount of wealth would you, Percy, yes, you, feel that you should voluntarily give away the excess?
Not buying a copy of the Big Issue now and again. Not advocating that everybody in Shitlordia should be taxed more.
You, personally. When would you say "No, I have enough, give all the rest to some deserving urchins." ?
This is another of these non-rhetorical questions, although the answer is always going to be theoretical. |
Yep, wage suppression and workers rights are gone from your lexicon
I wasn't on about caps on earnings or anything like that. I was on about suppression of salaries and rights because 'shitlord elites' buy up whole economies and thus can make everyone in the region work for peanuts.
For example, a local shoemaker who's doing alright for himself might sell up to the local Mr Rich. So the shoemaker is sorted for life. Then when the next generation comes along, Mr Rich still owns the shoe business so he can choose to pay a new shoemaker a lower amount then the previous shoemaker was earning.
Then Mr Rich can buy the tailor's shop. So in the next generation the well-earning tailor is no more, and Mr Rich can employ a new tailor for a fraction of the previous earnings.
Rinse and repeat until all the well-earning business in the area are run by Mr Rich and he only has to pay a fraction out for the jobs that were once highly lucrative for the old private owners.
The real life version of this is the Amazons and WalMarts that don't necessarily buy out businesses directly, but they're now so huge that they can go to any area and price local businesses right out of the market. So that's a whole load of reasonable-salaried private business owners being forced out without any way of getting back into the game. Stuck at the bottom stacking shelves for the mega-business that marched in and took over. Clearly disproves your point about everyone being as successful as they deserve, too. Unfair competition is a very real thing. Unless of course you're happy with the idea of super-sized overlords eradicating all chances of success altogether.
Nothing to do with capping earnings for the individual. We all obviously want to earn as much as we can. The problem is when those with the resources, and therefore power, can trample on what was once a balanced and profitable economic system in their own quest to earn as much as they can.
So it's about the way those at the bottom are undercut when the situation becomes too unequal, caused by 'Mr Rich' types wading in and buying the lot. Monopolisation in a nutshell, pretty much. If it isn't dealt with properly the imbalance only gets worse, and that's when revolutions happen. The solution lies in fair employment laws, which are currently being eroded rather nicely in the ever fiercer race to the bottom.
What did you make of the Jordan Peterson talk I linked to earlier?
Last edited by Lord Percy on 17:52 - 30 Mar 2017; edited 1 time in total |
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M.C |
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M.C Super Spammer
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Posted: 17:48 - 30 Mar 2017 Post subject: |
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Rogerborg wrote: | M.C wrote: | Money equals infrastructure, schools etc. |
I feel like we're having a complete failure to communicate.
I'll use short paragraphs, let's see if we can get this through.
Money is numbers. OK, let's give Dindu some numbers.
A road appears under him? A school springs up around him?
By magic? The numbers become tangible objects?
No, someone has to build them. Somebody local to Dindu.
Is it Dindu? Is it hell. Dindu would rather sit in the shade knocking back Soma.
Give him numbers, and he will trade those numbers for things that other people have made, often people a long way away.
The numbers won't make Dindu any more productive. They won't incentivise him to build that road or that school.
Quite the opposite. Giving Dindu numbers enables him to do nothing.
Crazy thought, but perhaps people are, in general, as wealthy as their own efforts entitle them to be? |
We're because we have vastly differing opinions on the subject (as other debates have also proven). No one deserves to be rich or poor, we're born into one or the other or somewhere in-between by complete chance. Do you ever wonder what African Rogerborg's doing right now?
Infrastructure's always an extremely bad investment, a lot of what we rely upon daily dates back to Victorian times, the amount of bawwing when a new train line or bridge's proposed highlights this. You're always going on about intelligence (usually a lack of), so how would a multi-national corporation operating in a country, making vast profits then deciding to build a school be a bad thing?
I'm not suggesting a salary sacrifice for every person to help their less developed cousins, just that businesses put a tiny fraction back into the areas they exploit, and actually that applies to everywhere they operate. |
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grr666 |
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
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M.C |
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M.C Super Spammer
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Posted: 20:53 - 30 Mar 2017 Post subject: |
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Polarbear wrote: | M.C wrote: |
I'm not suggesting a salary sacrifice for every person to help their less developed cousins, just that businesses put a tiny fraction back into the areas they exploit, and actually that applies to everywhere they operate. |
I worked for Shell in Nigeria for a good few years for my sins and as well as paying the Nigerian government huge amounts of money for the privilege of extracting oil and gas they gave local villages every conceivable perk they could. Dirt cheap electric and gas. Buildings, medical facilities but the locals didn't want that, really, They wanted cash in their pockets without having to work.
People in government syphoned off money and got rich. Their side kicks, police, army were bribed to look the other way and got rich. The locals rioted until they were given cash payments and got relatively rich.
There are more millionaires in Nigeria than UK, and more poverty. The British government gives aid to Nigeria which has more resources than we could dream about.
It's a society that EXPECTS something for nothing and if it doesn't get it it will take it.
Don't blame the companies, they aren't the exploiters. |
So you'll know about the oil spills they don't bother to clean up, yet when one happens within x amount of miles of whitey it's a disaster? Sounds like people are selfish, much like us. Sounds like there's a lot of corruption, much like us
All I'm really trying to say is I don't think it's fair and even true to assume people are scummy because of the circumstances they're born into. We used to go around claiming people were witches and killing them, just like what still goes on in Africa and within certain communities in the UK. I know African people who are incredibly smart, mainly because their families gave a shit and they had a decent education.
Found Rogerborg's African family btw:
https://blog.motorcycle.com.vsassets.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/101012-2013-bmw-r1200gs-37.jpg |
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Lord Percy |
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Lord Percy World Chat Champion
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Posted: 21:15 - 30 Mar 2017 Post subject: |
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Rogerborg wrote: | Lord Percy wrote: | [avoids the question, as usual] |
Noted. Not so much fun when it comes down to concrete terms rather than vague abstracts, is it?
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Not vague, I think the problem is that you can't grasp the abstract.
Salary caps aren't needed. A maximum ratio between that of the top earners and the lowest earners in a business is what's needed. Say 1:20 or something. There could be other complexities added too, for example a business with a much larger turnover would be allowed a greater ratio to account for the fact that the CEO really does have a lot to keep on top of each day.
The ratio could be something like "1:20k", where k is a scaling value that increases in line with the value of the business. So HSBC might have k=5, making the ratio 1:100 so the CEO can earn a rightful £1,000,000 against the cleaners' £10,000. Beyond that point, if the CEO wants to push pay scales even higher they have to do it across the board, so even the cleaners see higher pay. Then in theory, any reasonably successful company could end up being known as the place where even the cleaners enjoy clocking in each day. Sounds like a recipe for contentment to me.
Unfortunately the exact opposite happens these days. No cleaners really enjoy doing their job, and it's even reached the point where lower level work is subcontracted or outsourced so the prole stuff is done by people who have absolutely no stake in the business anyway, and they always earn peanuts regardless of how successful the year has been for big bosses. This to me is a recipe for misery and discontent.
The overall point would be that if the business improves and the CEO can take home more money, it should only be allowed if the shopfloor workers see a pay rise too. If an individual believes their contribution was worthy of particular commendation, they could negotiate a higher salary or promotion.
So there's my solution, without limits or salary caps. I don't know what made you think it was about Cuban style wage caps to be honest.
Some companies do things like this anyway, with yearly bonuses etc. It would be good to have it legislated though, to ensure greater fairness across the entire workforce. |
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Kickstart |
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Kickstart The Oracle
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Posted: 22:31 - 30 Mar 2017 Post subject: |
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M.C wrote: |
There would have to be a complete culture change, but people have proven it can be done. Generally successful people reach a point where they feel comfortable, and sell off their business etc., where as other people have restructured diverting the profits to good causes. |
Not sure they do. A hell of a lot work themselves up to the point of death; whether that is because work is the entire self worth or whether it is that they always want more money is another question.
Lord Percy wrote: | On the topic of UK birth rates, I just had a wee google and found this, which is sort of alarming. It's alarming because the UK population is still rising even against a long time birthrate of <2.0, which means immigration numbers must be gigantic. |
The biggy is how much longer people are living. Quick look suggests that since 1900 the life expectancy (at birth) of men in the UK has increased from 47 to 79, and for women from 50 to 83. That on its own would pretty much account for the UK increase in population (although we have had a few wars to knock back the population, and exported quite a bit of it as well).
While birth rate has dropped, that has done so quite recently. When I was born (1968) it was 2.6 and has now dropped (1.9 in 2012).
All the best
Katy ____________________ Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing |
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Derivative |
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Derivative World Chat Champion
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 7 years, 28 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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