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M.C
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Kickstart
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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 Posted: 23:44 - 31 Mar 2017  Post subject: |
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| Lord Percy wrote: | Not vague |
Then answer the very simple, straightforward question asked:
At what amount of wealth would you, Percy, yes, you, feel that you should voluntarily give away the excess?
Not buying a copy of the Big Issue now and again. Not advocating that everybody in Shitlordia should be taxed more.
You, personally. When would you say "No, I have enough, give all the rest to some deserving urchins." ?
If you won't answer the question, can you at least examine your reasons for not answering it, and tell us what those are?
Nigers stole my bike.
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GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Sun Wukong |
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Sun Wukong
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| Posted: 09:20 - 01 Apr 2017 Post subject: |
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Borgy, stop trolling the lad... he gave a pretty comprehensive answer to you. Salary caps are not great, but proportional pay is. Let the rising tide lift all boats.
| Lord Percy wrote: |
Not vague, I think the problem is that you can't grasp the abstract.
Salary caps aren't needed. A maximum ratio between that of the top earners and the lowest earners in a business is what's needed. Say 1:20 or something. There could be other complexities added too, for example a business with a much larger turnover would be allowed a greater ratio to account for the fact that the CEO really does have a lot to keep on top of each day.
The ratio could be something like "1:20k", where k is a scaling value that increases in line with the value of the business. So HSBC might have k=5, making the ratio 1:100 so the CEO can earn a rightful £1,000,000 against the cleaners' £10,000. Beyond that point, if the CEO wants to push pay scales even higher they have to do it across the board, so even the cleaners see higher pay. Then in theory, any reasonably successful company could end up being known as the place where even the cleaners enjoy clocking in each day. Sounds like a recipe for contentment to me.
Unfortunately the exact opposite happens these days. No cleaners really enjoy doing their job, and it's even reached the point where lower level work is subcontracted or outsourced so the prole stuff is done by people who have absolutely no stake in the business anyway, and they always earn peanuts regardless of how successful the year has been for big bosses. This to me is a recipe for misery and discontent.
The overall point would be that if the business improves and the CEO can take home more money, it should only be allowed if the shopfloor workers see a pay rise too. If an individual believes their contribution was worthy of particular commendation, they could negotiate a higher salary or promotion.
So there's my solution, without limits or salary caps. I don't know what made you think it was about Cuban style wage caps to be honest.
Some companies do things like this anyway, with yearly bonuses etc. It would be good to have it legislated though, to ensure greater fairness across the entire workforce. |
Also, regarding how to help the people.
Give Well - a list of charities that aren't shit
As someone who touched in to the 3rd sector, it is an awful mess of nest lining cronies at one end, and underfunded dreamers scraping away at the other. Work the margins 
In a similar vein, pledging to give 10% of your income over your lifetime.
Giving what we can
Also targeted for the biggest margin benefits, possibly with direct remittance payments to beneficiaries, which at least deprives parasitic NGO's and stimulates the whole economy.
Studies show they tend to invest in themselves or their industry well, so it is a far better use of money than government backed programs. Feels wrong though, as the many articles on foreigners taking out govt. cash with ATM cards has shown.[/url]
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"Hard times lead to hard people. Hard people lead to good times. Good times lead to weak people. Weak people lead to hard times." Smegballs
"Oh and STE balloons would be one of the nicer things we would receive at the office, the amount of dog turd in jiffy bags is not funny." Jsmith86 |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 12:23 - 01 Apr 2017 Post subject: |
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| Sun Wukong wrote: | Borgy, stop trolling the lad... he gave a pretty comprehensive answer to you. |
It wasn't an answer to the very simple question asked.
Aside, I skimmed the unrelated essay. It appeared to be another swing at communism. Redistribute numbers (which are not things) and punish the success that comes from creating more wealth (which is things).
Economic communism doesn't work. The tide doesn't rise, it grows an algal bloom and rots. Huzzah, everyone is equally poor, and there's no incentive to bother creating wealth.
As the Soviet Union, ask Cuba, ask Venezuela. They're down to eating pigeons there. But at least nobody is eating swan, so, social justice.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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| Sun Wukong |
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Sun Wukong
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Posted: 05:32 - 02 Apr 2017  Post subject: |
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Yes, but our culture punishes morals and human decency, ultimately.
If you dilute everything down to economics, what gives the best return, what is best for the profit margin... you reduce the populace to bendable consumers, and staff to mechanical units.
Which is where MSM comes in, IMO. Keep pushing the aspirational living. Shiny cars, big houses, beautiful girlfriends, trendy friends... keep the proles producing so that they can consume.
People forget that consumption is voluntary.
So yes, seeing a way for the whole metaphysics of modern life to realign somewhere more wholesome, would be great.
I have also always liked the idea of wage ratio caps, rather than direct caps. Inside company caps seems like quite an elegant thing, actually.
The main concern I would have for that is the level of paperwork it could add to things. And also, how would that affect bonuses and incentivising.
If you want an economy to improve, you remove all regulations and controls (And taxes) and let entrepreneurs take over. Correct.
However, I don't see why you can't have that AND some system where the top can't be too far from the bottom within a system.
Being a high level manager is a tough skill, but it does not require such high salaries to stimulate people to do it. I understand supply and demand, but you also have investment and return. If someone is being paid a million pound / year to run a company, they need to prove their return covers their salary.
Growth for the sake of growth is the philosophy of the cancer cell.
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"Hard times lead to hard people. Hard people lead to good times. Good times lead to weak people. Weak people lead to hard times." Smegballs
"Oh and STE balloons would be one of the nicer things we would receive at the office, the amount of dog turd in jiffy bags is not funny." Jsmith86 |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 09:02 - 02 Apr 2017 Post subject: |
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| Sun Wukong wrote: | Yes, but our culture punishes morals and human decency, ultimately. |
Any moral, decent society is only three meals away from anarchy.
| Sun Wukong wrote: | People forget that consumption is voluntary. |
Only for breatharianists.
You know the utopian future shown in Star Trek? That's predicated on practically unlimited wealth. Morality is a luxury.
Anyway, back on topic ( ) I see Google, Twitter and Facebook have agreed to tackle terrorists online.
Or so goes the headline. The body seems to talk about "extremism" though, which is a very broad brush that can be swept in the Correct direction once the New Media are brought to heel.
Shouty McRockinghorse might be paranoid, but that doesn't mean they're not out to get him. I believe we're witnessing the tentative beginnings of the New Media joining the Legacy Media as cogs in the establishment machine.
The tell will be when New Media execs start being given gongs and seats in the Lords as rewards for playing nicely.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Ribenapigeon
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| Lord Percy |
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Lord Percy
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| Posted: 12:22 - 02 Apr 2017 Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: | | Sun Wukong wrote: | Borgy, stop trolling the lad... he gave a pretty comprehensive answer to you. |
It wasn't an answer to the very simple question asked.
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How much would I willingly limit my salary to? I'd say something like 200% of the average house price. But that obviously can't work because some houses are huge and some houses are tiny, and cost more or less in different areas. Also some companies earn absolutely tons, so it would be better to have salaries that match the success of a company. It gets pretty complex and is why I wrote a little essay with ideas on tackling the issue without any earnings ever being capped.
I think the point you want to draw out of me is that everyone is inherently selfish so we should all just let society stay as the battle it is.
But then we might as well condone highway robbery, murder, gang rule and everything else. I suspect you wouldn't necessarily be a huge fan of that. So you do have respect for a system of some kind - the system that prevents the form of inequality where people of violence have an unfair advantage. A system that prevents unfair dominance from those with a financial advantage is surely not a huge step in logic.
Did you ever get round to watching the Jordan Peterson talk? If not, I'll summarise: Inequality, not poverty, is what leads to problems in societies. Ultra poor countries aren't fantastically more crime-ridden, the financially unequal ones are. It's because men need a way to feel like they're part of the power structure. If they feel too far removed from those at the top of the ladder, they play the game of violence and win that way instead. |
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| Posted: 14:59 - 02 Apr 2017 Post subject: |
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| Ribenapigeon wrote: |
Its not just the wages its how your wage measures up to living costs. Once upon a time housing, fuel, transport and education costs were relatively low while food, clothing, consumer goods and entertainment was higher. We need to get back to that balance. |
As I am retired I am watching the pennies with much more concern than I did when I was working.
I worked out my out goings, which to be honest are peanuts if you take council tax and utilities out but what struck me was how much I was paying for various 'entertainments'
I was spending per month £95 on Sky, £53 on BT (for infinity & Landline), £7 on netflix, £59 to EE (for mobile services of various types(no, not Miss Sadies  )) & £75 a year for Amazon Prime and £130? a year for a fucking television license
So approx £230 a month on entertainments I could do without or reduce drastically.
I've cancelled Sky and gone freesat. Cancelled Netflix. I'll keep BT because 3 people using a multitude of platforms in the house so I want BT Infinity. I'll reduce my EE to a sim only when it expires. (I could go giffgaff and reduce it further but I have my wife on the same contract and if she has to payg she will make my life a misery). Amazon I'll keep because of prime postage.
So that will at least halve the cost to around a £100, which is still stupid money for 'entertainment' but a bit more bearable than £230.
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 16:11 - 02 Apr 2017 Post subject: |
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| Lord Percy wrote: | I think the point you want to draw out of me is that everyone is inherently selfish so we should all just let society stay as the battle it is. |
It's to encourage you to examine honestly whether you would in fact, rather than in fantasy, cheerfully eat your own dogfood.
Because the problem with all communist ideals is pesky old human nature. It's easy to say that you could get by with less if you had more, but everyone[*] says that, always, no matter how much they have.
Communism requires coercion. A socially just society must be a tyranny of the majority, robbing and punishing those who manage to better themselves. It doesn't make anyone wealthier, it just panders to the mob's petty jealousy. No monkey may climb higher than the rest! Shake him out of the tree!
[*] Insane people excepted. Even rich philanthropists like Gates and Zuckerberg are just running tax dodges, they don't go out and just give all their numbers away.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 17:28 - 02 Apr 2017 Post subject: |
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They sounded like communism underlaid with a soothing piano melody designed to disguise the soul destroying brutality of forced equality.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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grr666
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| Posted: 19:05 - 02 Apr 2017 Post subject: |
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So survival of the fittest only applies to the animal kingdom Percy?
Interesting.
So we, the human species are what now? Better than animals? Why?
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Lord Percy
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| Posted: 19:55 - 02 Apr 2017 Post subject: |
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I wouldn't go down that road! We the human species thrived and dominated partly via communal living. Blokes would hunt as a pack and share the catch with the whole village. Ensures better survival of as many women and children as possible, instead of one idiot hording all the grub and leaving his offspring and potential sex partners to die. Still happens in African and Amazonian tribes today
Only difference in modern society is that there are too many of us so Dunbar's number is ruined and the wider sense of community becomes too much to grasp. |
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Kickstart
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| Posted: 21:30 - 02 Apr 2017 Post subject: |
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Hi
What a person can earn in their life is not likely to be enough to distort things. But what they can add to what they start off with can distort things easily. Remove inheritance and the markets are regularly reset.
As to houses costing 3 times salary, what you forget is how hard it was to get a mortgage then. That the mortgage was for under 3 times your (single) salary was a small part of the process of getting a mortgage
All the best
Katy
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I doubt he does it for money, he probably has no idea what to do with himself, and will probably die soon now he's been forced into retirement.
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