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Rogerborg
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 14:41 - 17 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
I can't make sense of your request for me to divulge my internet usage history.

I was interested in seeing how quickly you'd rationalise suddenly becoming hysterically concerned about providing 'your' public data.
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 16:42 - 17 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
ScaredyCat wrote:
You appear no have no understanding of privacy.


You appear to have no understanding of how one physically maintains privacy.

The internet isn't exactly a personal safe with your own exclusive lock and key, is it.


Your lack of understanding of the internet concerns me.
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Rogerborg
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 16:48 - 17 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
ScaredyCat wrote:
Your lack of understanding of the internet concerns me.

He's a physicist, it probably makes sense for a spherical internet in a vacuum.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 17:19 - 17 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Lord Percy wrote:
I can't make sense of your request for me to divulge my internet usage history.

I was interested in seeing how quickly you'd rationalise suddenly becoming hysterically concerned about providing 'your' public data.


I'm genuinely interested in how you can rationalise the concept of absolute, unquestionable, fully fortified 'privacy' on the worldwide web.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 17:19 - 17 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
ScaredyCat wrote:


Your lack of understanding of the internet concerns me.


Please explain what I'm misunderstanding.
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Rogerborg
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 17:28 - 17 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
I was interested in seeing how quickly you'd rationalise suddenly becoming hysterically concerned about providing 'your' public data.

[Watch as I deflect the issue of backing up what I did say by demanding a defence of something that you didn't say]

You may have missed your calling as a journalist. Clapping
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Mawsley
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PostPosted: 16:13 - 21 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Ladies and gentlemen, Frankie Boyle...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/nov/10/frankie-boyle-theresa-may-internet-surveillance?CMP=share_btn_fb
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colink98
Could Be A Chat Bot



Joined: 27 Jun 2016
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PostPosted: 17:08 - 21 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Phew.....

the wife isn't on the list of people who can see where I have been.
Business as usual.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 21:21 - 21 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
There are a lot of countermeasures available.

Snooping -> Use a VPN and/or TOR
Hacking -> Use a tails live CD
Seizure (phone) -> Encrypt phone, go into the recovery and quick format the user data partitions. They can demand keys but you have no data.
Seizure (pc) -> Encrypt, optionally wipe
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 22:31 - 21 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
But why should you have to?

Clearly they're going to use Jo Cox's murderer as an example of 'see, we could have prevented this if we were allowed to snoop, so mur' but anyone with half a brain cell and a vague memory of the laughable cock-ups and missed flags of the past knows that's the case.

Hell, even his public library didn't care he was searching for Neo-Nazi stuff Laughing
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 14:58 - 22 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jewlio Rides Again wrote:
But why should you have to?

Clearly they're going to use Jo Cox's murderer as an example of 'see, we could have prevented this if we were allowed to snoop, so mur' but anyone with half a brain cell and a vague memory of the laughable cock-ups and missed flags of the past knows that's the case.

Hell, even his public library didn't care he was searching for Neo-Nazi stuff Laughing


Citizens failed to prevent the law coming into the force. Now all we can do is try to limit the effects.
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Falco
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PostPosted: 17:08 - 23 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Im-a-Ridah wrote:
There are a lot of countermeasures available.

Snooping -> Use a VPN and/or TOR
Hacking -> Use a tails live CD
Seizure (phone) -> Encrypt phone, go into the recovery and quick format the user data partitions. They can demand keys but you have no data.
Seizure (pc) -> Encrypt, optionally wipe


Worth bearing in mind that under RIPA (2000) Pt.III you have to turn over a password within a specified time period(1 hour I think) when they serve you with the notice to do so. Failure can get you an automatic 2 years (5 for terrorist of paedophile cases).

You could try and explain that you'd destroyed the keys and the data was not recoverable, but would you gamble 2 years of your life on a 90 year old judge understanding the distinction?

The countermeasures all work (to an extent), but security is in direct opposition to usability. A fortress computer requiring a 50 character to even boot to the login screen and a separate, sandboxed gateway computer might be secure, but what's the point if you never turn it on?
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 17:16 - 23 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Last year's "snooper charter" thread.

https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=307991
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 20:17 - 23 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
FredTheHorse wrote:


Worth bearing in mind that under RIPA (2000) Pt.III you have to turn over a password within a specified time period(1 hour I think) when they serve you with the notice to do so. Failure can get you an automatic 2 years (5 for terrorist of paedophile cases).

You could try and explain that you'd destroyed the keys and the data was not recoverable, but would you gamble 2 years of your life on a 90 year old judge understanding the distinction?

The countermeasures all work (to an extent), but security is in direct opposition to usability. A fortress computer requiring a 50 character to even boot to the login screen and a separate, sandboxed gateway computer might be secure, but what's the point if you never turn it on?


I've no idea where you get 1 hour from, I'm not aware of any time limits. RIPA III seems to be used extremely rarely, and the convictions seems to be exceptionally low in number. In practice "I forgot" does seem to be sufficient to get off, people convicted seem to be those who said "I'm not going to tell you". My impression is that RIPA III is not a law for enforcement, but rather a way to "encourage" people to turn over the keys. Terrorists and paedophiles don't even need to store data on their computers, they just need a Tails live CD and an anoonymous cloud account.

On the issue of password lengths
50 characters is grossly over the top. Modern crypto systems use hash algorithms to verify the password, so you don't get to just run password guesses, each guess involves tens of thousands of hash iterations. Couple this with the fairly limited resources available to police to actually crack passwords and you need a much shorter password. Here are some numbers.

PBKDF2 as per something like Truecrypt. Assuming the cops had 8 x AMD R9 290X this gives them ~15m PBKDF2s per second. For the 85 usable keyboard characters they would find:
6 character password in 6 months
7 character password in 16 years
8 character password in 1500 years
If you used Veracrypt instead
7 character password in 453 years
8 character password in 38,000 years
12 characters? Age of the universe.

Or if you want an unrealistic extreme scenario, assume they can guess hashes at the peak rate of the entire Bitcoin network, 400,000,000 GHash/sec.
Veracrypt, printable ASCII set, 10 chars = 8 years
Veracrypt, printable ASCII set, 12 chars = 62,000 years

In practice the cops will try running an "intelligent" password cracker to guess the most easy ones, followed by fairly short length brute force attacks. Brute forcing passwords is very much a dead end. I would definitely recommend a ~14 character password though.
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CaNsA
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Joined: 02 Jan 2008
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PostPosted: 16:42 - 24 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
List of who can now see your entire internet history:-



Metropolitan police force
City of London police force
Police forces maintained under section 2 of the Police Act 1996
Police Service of Scotland
Police Service of Northern Ireland
British Transport Police
Ministry of Defence Police
Royal Navy Police
Royal Military Police
Royal Air Force Police
Security Service
Secret Intelligence Service
GCHQ
Ministry of Defence
Department of Health
Home Office
Ministry of Justice
National Crime Agency
HM Revenue & Customs
Department for Transport
Department for Work and Pensions
NHS trusts and foundation trusts in England that provide ambulance services
Common Services Agency for the Scottish Health Service
Competition and Markets Authority
Criminal Cases Review Commission
Department for Communities in Northern Ireland
Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland
Department of Justice in Northern Ireland
Financial Conduct Authority
Fire and rescue authorities under the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004
Food Standards Agency
Food Standards Scotland
Gambling Commission
Gangmasters and Labour Abuse Authority
Health and Safety Executive
Independent Police Complaints Commissioner
Information Commissioner
NHS Business Services Authority
Northern Ireland Ambulance Service Health and Social Care Trust
Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service Board
Northern Ireland Health and Social Care Regional Business Services Organisation
Office of Communications
Office of the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland
Police Investigations and Review Commissioner
Scottish Ambulance Service Board
Scottish Criminal Cases Review Commission
Serious Fraud Office
Welsh Ambulance Services National Health Service Trust



Ketchup
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Rogerborg
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Joined: 26 Oct 2010
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PostPosted: 16:50 - 24 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
CaNsA wrote:
Information Commissioner

Committed to protecting your privacy. Rolling Eyes

Ambulance services, the mind boggles.

I await the lobbying from the quangos to get supar-sekrit-clearance: NSPCC, RSPCA, Unite Against Fascism. This is just the tip of the witch hunter going in dry.
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CaNsA
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PostPosted: 17:32 - 24 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
I don't understand why these guys ned to have access to my info.

Department of Health
Department for Transport
Department for Work and Pensions
NHS trusts and foundation trusts in England that provide ambulance services
Common Services Agency for the Scottish Health Service
Competition and Markets Authority
Department for Communities in Northern Ireland
Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland
Fire and rescue authorities under the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004
Food Standards Agency
Food Standards Scotland
Gambling Commission
Health and Safety Executive
Independent Police Complaints Commissioner
Information Commissioner
NHS Business Services Authority
Northern Ireland Ambulance Service Health and Social Care Trust
Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service Board
Northern Ireland Health and Social Care Regional Business Services Organisation
Office of the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland
Scottish Ambulance Service Board
Welsh Ambulance Services National Health Service Trust
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Im-a-Ridah
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Joined: 20 Oct 2006
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PostPosted: 19:55 - 24 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
It will be funny if someone hacks a police station wifi or similar and set up a child porn site running through that IP. Just imagine the chaos Laughing
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Lord Percy
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Joined: 03 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: 11:32 - 25 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Sort of on topic: Cyber security college to be set up at Bletchley Park.

Seems like a bit of a pointless quango to me. Interesting nonetheless.

More l337 h4x0rs to join Anonymous.
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Monkeywrenche...
Nearly there...



Joined: 27 Mar 2015
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PostPosted: 11:59 - 25 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
CaNsA wrote:
I don't understand why these guys ned to have access to my info.

Department of Health
Department for Transport
Department for Work and Pensions
NHS trusts and foundation trusts in England that provide ambulance services
Common Services Agency for the Scottish Health Service
Competition and Markets Authority
Department for Communities in Northern Ireland
Department for the Economy in Northern Ireland
Fire and rescue authorities under the Fire and Rescue Services Act 2004
Food Standards Agency
Food Standards Scotland
Gambling Commission
Health and Safety Executive
Independent Police Complaints Commissioner
Information Commissioner
NHS Business Services Authority
Northern Ireland Ambulance Service Health and Social Care Trust
Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service Board
Northern Ireland Health and Social Care Regional Business Services Organisation
Office of the Police Ombudsman for Northern Ireland
Scottish Ambulance Service Board
Welsh Ambulance Services National Health Service Trust


to investigate fraud and other wrongdoing.

as an example if you look at this list https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/188253/_bcf/mowa/Schedule-4.pdf it tells you who in that organisation will be looking.

in the fire and rescue service it's the guys who investigate arson, so they could look at your internet history to see if you googles "how to get away with arson" for example. others are fraud or criminal action investigators some are not clear though...
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ScaredyCat
World Chat Champion



Joined: 19 May 2012
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PostPosted: 19:07 - 25 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
In other somewhat related news...

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/188253/_bcf/mowa/youfucktard.jpg
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Tdibs
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Joined: 16 Jan 2015
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PostPosted: 21:07 - 25 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
Ask a good hacker if they'd be able to find out every last porno you watched and they'd probably say 'lol yeah probably'.


So nobody should have a reasonable right to privacy because someone could break it?

Someone could break into my house and see whatever I was doing, it does not mean I want camera's inside my house with the government watching me just because there is a possibility someone could come in.

Its just another example of people who have little knowledge of the subject implementing policy. Its going to be great to have all the low-level jobsworths in government agencies just trawling through your browser history.

I work in the games industry as an artist, regular googling and trawling through many pictures of weapons, tanks, explosives etc etc. Time to VPN I guess.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 23:44 - 25 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Tdibs wrote:

Someone could break into my house and see whatever I was doing, it does not mean I want camera's inside my house with the government watching me just because there is a possibility someone could come in.


Well if we're going to use the household analogy.

Your house is a personal computer.

Going out in public is the internet.

What I don't understand is how people are quite happy with the state/police having various powers of observation/investigation/arrest in the real world (CCTV, coppers on the beat etc - even people checking you've paid your TV licence) and generally accept that it's for the public good, yet for some reason there's this demand that the internet stay a sacred place and as open/anarchistic as possible with zero policing at all.

Given the amount of information and processes that can be done online now, it seems pretty obvious to me that control and monitoring of it is a next natural step in any civilised society.

Certainly going against the grain of opinion there but meh, Penny Coin Penny Coin
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ScaredyCat
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Joined: 19 May 2012
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PostPosted: 01:01 - 26 Nov 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:

What I don't understand is how people are quite happy with the state/police having various powers of observation/investigation/arrest in the real world


There's a huge difference between observation because you're a suspect and observation because you might do something in the future. Nobody is up in arms about targeted surveillance, they're up in arms about mass surveillance when there's no good reason. If you treat everyone as a criminal, don't be surprised when that's what you end up with.

People behave differently if they know they are being observed which means they can't always be themselves, especially if they fear reprisals. (It wasn't that long ago that being "found out" as gay would result in you being ostracised or worse). So now you've started down the route of conditioning people, less free thought. There's a good reason that one of the core Human Rights (article 8) is laid out as " right to respect for his of her private and family life, home and correspondence."

The IP Bill breaks article 8 because mass surveillance has already been deemed illegal. The government know it, but the process of challenging it takes a long time and a lot of money. So, while someone's putting their arguments together and until the courts say "Yeah, but it's illegal - just like every other time you tried to do this." the government will continue to implement a law, knowing it will be found to be illegal.

All that is ignoring the fact that this information will be stored by BT or TalkTalk or Virgin Media. Tell me just how secure do you think that information is? What sort of people would like access to it? The newspapers? Blackmailers? The pot is so full of honey you'll be fighting off Pooh Bear.
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 7 years, 152 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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