UK govt backs 'stolen valour' law

[Azoth]

An interesting development: the govt intends to back a private member's bill that will make it a criminal offence to claim military service and/or honours that one hasn't earned. Amazingly, it isn't yet a crime here (unlike in America, where it's vigorously investigated and prosecuted). What do you think?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38103079?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-parliaments-38103699&link_location=live-reporting-story

It seems kind of important that imposters should be exposed for what they are. It protects the public, as positions of responsibility may be given to 'Walter Mitty' types who claim military service and are trusted on that basis. In today's world, with assymetrical warfare and the blurring of policing, paramilitary and military roles, the same protections should probably be extended to law enforcement personnel and the intelligence community.
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Safety in numbers

[Im-a-Ridah]

This is about people false claiming to be EX-military and having gained some honour, it's not about people claiming to be serving military or cops. Retired military have no powers or privileges or anything like that, it's purely about people claiming bragging rights they haven't earned. It's also fairly questionable how much bragging rights running around in a field with a gun really gets you anyway. I always find it quite strange since the army are fairly keen for people to join up, as regulars or reserves, there is really no need to pretend to have done the job. It's not like it's a hard profession to get into.

[Azoth]

[Jewlio Rides Again LLB]

Where will it stand on someone wearing their grandfather/father's medals at a parade out of respect?

You just know someone is going to pull that one.
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Mpd72: I can categorically say i’m Brighter than that, no matter how I come across on here.
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[Azoth]

[Kawasaki Jimbo]

Yeah, we used to hate that in the SAS.

[Azoth]

[Im-a-Ridah]

[Mawsley]

Would anybody make it illegal for cocksocketdoctor to pretend he's had sex with a lady or ridden a motorbike?

I don't see the harm fantasists cause, unless they're pretending to be medical personnel or the like. I appreciate it must be a pita for someone to pretend to have been in a firefight when you actually were (or lost someone), but they aren't financially benefiting from it. If they are then surely fraud covers it?

*Obv. If Aaarons has ever done this then I support life sentencing.

[Rogerborg]

[stinkwheel]

The biggest bullshitters about military service I've ever met are ex servicemen. Or indeed serving ones. So are they going to do them too?

I used to drink with a guy who single handedly re-took the Falkland islands from his position as a corporal in the logistics corps. You'd think they'd have given him some recognition...

If you take someone on in ANY position of responsability (or not even particularly responsible), you check their references and if they've lied, you kick them out as unsuitable early-doors. Otherwise the joke's on you.
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“Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles.

[Azoth]

Some very astute people on this forum! I appreciate it.

I particularly agree with this common-sense advice:

[G]

Why should it only be the milatery that claims this specific "protection"?

Why should people in other jobs - dangerous, valourful, or not be accorded the same protection?

[Azoth]

Good point. Similar protections should be in place, for a host of other professions. Until a relatively recent point in time, they were.

At the moment, you could have a man like this one:

https://www.legalcheek.com/2016/07/lord-harley-booted-out-of-profession/

The backstory of his claims is amazing. I think he's claimed to be a part of just about everything going, from aristocracy to the highest echelons of the military, to academia to St John's Ambulance service! They tried shaming him, but he's shameless. It didn't work. So they've kicked him out from the only actual entitlement he had, which is was a legal advocate. But surely he should be in jail, for the claims he made. They were really insulting and disrespectful.

However, to go back to the original question, why should ex-military have priority for this sort of protection? After all, former lawyers have no associations or clubs. Let me address this by way of an example. I was accosted in the street one day by a man who claimed he was dying. The guy was obviously a bit simple. He was talking to everyone. He said he was undergoing medical treatment for a host of different things. I let him go on and talk. He said he had injuries and trauma in the military and Iraq. As someone who has never served, I can't imagine how bad that must feel. He said he kept trying, but couldn't talk about some things, as he was too shocked, and he said Americans were animals, etc. Basically talked a lot. A lonely guy who needed a lot of professional help and support. But, above all, he needed a support association, in my opinion. People and a network of contacts who understood his plight. Strangers in the street couldn't help him. THAT's why fraudulent ex-military claims must be shot down first, before the other annoying lies that psychopaths peddle. It's important to get the right people and the right support in the right time and at the right place, for people like him.

If you go to General Chat, you'll find a thread there about classic motorcycles. It's a contentious topic, for sure. But people talk about 'nostalgia'. Ex-military personnel have ventured forth for kleos, and upon their return, they find they can't really 'return'. The impossibility of nostos, for them, is because they have changed, society has changed, people have changed and moved on, and nobody understands. That's why we give them a whole load of space for their own thing, and why we should weed out assholes who try to leverage advantage for themselves by laying false claim to being associated with the military. It isn't special treatment, it's just giving them a bit of space and respect.
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Safety in numbers

[The Wobbly Orange]

Seems like a good idea to me.

I wonder however if the bill will apply to bloaters as well as walts.


For hose who don't know.

Walt...someone who claims service who never joined.

Bloater.....Someone who tells you he was in the SBS but was actually discharged 4 months into his chef submariner course for stealing. Did serve, but only just.
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People tell me I am lovely. How wrong they are!

[G]

[Azoth]

[G]

[Sload]

And do you blaim the military troops or the leaders and corporate economies that need war to feed them?

And these weirdos are quite common, strange as folk.
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[Rogerborg]

See, this is why the Grey Council should have two from the Warrior Caste, two from the Religious Caste, and five from the Worker Caste.
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[Azoth]

It's obviously a red herring to point at military personnel or the military as a whole and tar them as responsible for foreign policy failings over the last 30 or so years. What they do is simply follow orders. There are profound dimensions intrinsic in the military status. To achieve admittance into the group, it isn't necessary to be a 'fighter', but it is necessary to put all your personal egotistical wants and desires to one side and to put the corps first. That's one aspect of what sets it apart from the ordinary. The other, is that serious and solemn oaths and rituals, on pain of punishment and/or death, are conditional upon entry. That's why a military 'sapper' has a distinct status from a civil engineer. I'll return to this point, because it's an important pillar upon which the distinction of the class entity 'military' rests.

Regarding the other points that have been made, I think we might be talking at cross-purposes here. I share your view that civil occupations should merit the same legal protections and penalties applicable to imposters as are being proposed in the case of military and ex-military personnel. The latter part of the preceding discussion concerned only whether there is any sound basis for according priority to ex-military as a 'status'. However, there is no disagreement from me that the likes of the shoemaker and the carpenter should, likewise, be fully entitled to dignity, respect and legal protection.

Allow me to present this subject in yet another way that may help shed some light on why the proposed measures are warranted.

'Lord Harley' was put in the modern-day equivalent of the stocks. This had no effect, because in the civilian world, all of the old barriers and standards of decency and decorum have been severely eroded. There is practically no respect in society any more, although it was present at one time. How recently in the history of Britain would 'Lord Harley' have been found hanging from Blackfriars Bridge for making his absurd, outrageous and mocking claims that insulted a broad swathe of upright, right-thinking 'real' people? I would say, only a few decades ago! Why?

Take the case of the Freemasons. Everyone knows them as a secretive group that's been watered down. In their iniation oaths, the novice is clearly warned about the consequences of betraying the brotherhood. A dagger's point is, literally, brought to bear on his chest. In the past, the brotherhood of Freemasons would police itself by such means. And what were they? A professional association for builders! One that offered not only support and benefits, but the keys to universal secrets and the introduction to mystery religions that would otherwise remain out of reach of the townspeople who were allowed to join it. It gave the craft of masonry an unfathomable spiritual dimension, and no doubt enriched the lives of medieval artisans considerably. They didn't have to be actual chisellers but simply people who swore loyalty to the group and were admitted. But everyone knows that...

What about the case of London Taxi drivers? They can drive cars, but so can lots of people. What sets them apart is that they're a livery company, just like the Freemasons, seriously watered down. There is no personal or spiritual support emanating from the The Worshipful Company of Hackney Carriage Drivers. You don't even need to be a particularly good driver, to be one of them. You just have to pass their tests and be admitted.

And the Law Society? A livery company for lawyers. ACCA for accountants, etc. There are more than a hundred such active professional bodies that once enjoyed a protected status so that traitors belonging to them would be consigned to the river at night and fakers pretending to the public they belonged to them would go to prison and suffer. No longer, as they're all watered down. Only one's left: the military. As an institution, why should the military, with its traditions and costumes and titles and ranks, fall sway to the decadence of our times, just because everyone in civilian life arrogantly dresses how they like and claims what they like? Something has to be stable and sacred in the modern world. I see no reason why the profession of arms should go the same way as a defunct livery company and lose all its prestige. Rather, being 'ex-military' should be a protected title or status that any Tom, Dick or Harry should hesitate to feign. The same should apply to every other profession of repute that has 1) a solemn and serious initiation ritual; 2) a requirement to put the body corporal before the body individual.
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Safety in numbers

[G]

Members of the armed services choose to join up and it's been made quite clear the sort of orders they may be getting (ie attack other sovereign nations etc).
Simply 'following orders' is sure fine if you win the war. Generally it puts you in a pretty bad light if you didn't win though, if you have to fall back on that.
Plenty of jobs expect you to put your ego etc aside and work for the team. And in all walks including the military this of course doesn't happen with everyone it's requested of.

Plenty of other jobs require specific behaviour, which will see you punished if caught transgressing, or killed if you're unlucky.



I see no justification that military personal should be given special status over others. It's a job that has a lot of down sides, but for many people a lot of benefits. The same as many other jobs. There's nothing that special about it that I see to justify the fervour.


I've always disliked the idea of 'tradition' - seems to be justifying actions that wouldn't otherwise be justifiable. If there's good reasons to do, then go ahead for those reasons, not 'tradition'.
Suicide, bullying, torture and shooting civilians are also military 'traditions'.

The arrogance I see is from those that demand respect of someone because of the clothing they wear. I have no problem with people who 'dress how they like' but I do have a problem if others are expected to give respect for that.

For what it's worth, I think it's just as silly that Glastonbury festival doesn't allow us to wear 'Indian Head Dresses' - especially as I don't see Indians prevented from wearing suits, or maybe a morris dancing outfit.

[yen_powell]

[BTTD]

You seem to believe that anyone who joins the armed forces puts their ego and individuality to one side for the greater good. I think that's a bit naive.
Some people join for a career, some join to escape a life with no prospects. There are many reasons.
I think this proposal is just buying into all the help for heroes bullshit.

[owl10]