The need to tinker

[loughy]

Now i've moved into the world of big boy bikes, I want to further my knowledge to be able to complete my own services, fault detections, mods etc.

My knowledge at the minute is fairly basic but I think rather than tinkering with my 625 duke, I think its better to start with a smaller bike as a project.

Just looking for advice on what/where to start and is there a particular type/brand of bike which is a good started project? to buy a cheap old mess and go from there bit by bit, or to start from scratch with a frame (is that too much of a project?

[Sable]

Buy a cheap CG, older the better. Use it as a winter hack and keep it running regardless of what breaks. Do all repairs yourself. Cheaper than building a bike.

[loughy]

[Teflon-Mike]

A project can be a great way to learn mechanics; to learn how to sort out all the stuff that wears out or breaks though, you would want to pick a bike that is worn out and broken! Ie an old knacker.
A crash repairable, will only teach you how to unbend bits of bike; a 'custom' project how to change the shape.
So you want an old knacker, that's not been bent, nor customized, that you can make look just like it does on the cover of the Haynes manual, following the instructions IN the Haynes manual.
Taking it down to the bare bones, bit by bit, doing all the jobs like overhauling the brake calipers, replacing wheel bearings, overhauling the forks and suspension...
You start with a clapped out old knacker.... and when you have done, you end up with a hopefully slightly cleaner old knacker, that 'looks' almost no better than it did when you started, but contains about 3x it's market value in new parts you cant see.... but, if you followed the instructions right, should start and ride almost like new... but it wont look like it, and it will probably have cost as much as buying new; certainly 'more' than you could buy a 'better' running and riding example of the model for 2nd hand...

WHICH is where the problems start; clapped out old knackers become clapped out old knackers because no one thinks it 'worth' fixing them up... cheaper & easier to just buy something less knackered.

So... doing a project, you are unlikely to turn an old junker into a concourse show bike, that will be worth more than you spend on it. Do NOT do a project for profit. You almost certainly wont make one, especially a first project.

Next up, usual pitfalls; loath to spend money, people don't do the jobs where money needs to get spent; so wheels don't get new bearings, forks don't get new seals, suspension doesn't get new bushes... which means you don't learn how to replace wheel bearings, suspension bushes or fork seals! That rather defeats your original 'object' in the project to learn all these jobs, AND finished product isn't any less knackered than when you started!

Then, after starting to do a bit of work, and being disappointed that it doesn't LOOK any different when done to when you started, the aesthetics start to get more attention than the mechanics, and people will get distracted, polishing and painting and making it all look very pretty... and may even spend a bit of money on that, so they have a prettily painted old junker to look at... but still not learn any real mechanics or make the bike much or any less clunky!

And where 'problems' start to arise; often where more expensive parts are required, the botches start to creep in, and excuses that its being 'ratted' or 'bobbered' start to get offered.... so the end result is a prettily painted bit of butchered scrap!

WHICH eventually will get flogged off as 'Unfinished Project" when its realized its never going to be what was originally hoped, that its costing too much money, or that whats been done, is just so wrong, the bike will never get an MOT.... or it gets left in the back of a shed until its rust on the floor!

THESE warnings observed; IF you really want a project.. think long and hard about how much you want one; how much you really want to learn, and how much you can afford to throw away whilst you are about it.

Then, picking a scruffy old bike as your base; something cheap and common, say an ER5, that has been ridden into the ground over a few winters commuting, could give you a lot of learning, but cost and effort isn't going to give you a bike worth much if any more than you had to start with. Should ride wonderfully... BUT never a particularly inspiring bike, probably not one you will get the value you have put in from use or enjoyment... if you percevere to the bitter end.

On which basis, you may be better off picking something you have more use for, that you might get value from when done; a sunny day show bike or scratcher. And something like an old Triumph Bonaville, or a Ducati, may be little or no more daunting to tackle, probably cost little or no more to see 'done', and likely be worth more of what you have spent on it, as well as be something you can get the value back out of from riding.... For all you will have to spend more to buy one to start with.

BUT, end of the day, a project is whatever you want it to be.... there's no prescription for one, but the one YOU write for it.

But be warned; they nearly always cost far more time, money and effort than you expect; they nearly NEVER are truly 'worth it' at the end, and I do about one a year... its fun.. BUT... ignoring the perverse ecconomics, it really is hard to justify it all when it's done.. let alone if it never gets there.

So start at the back end; what would make a good project bike to choose is NOT one that tries to kid you it will be 'easy' to cut your teeth on; its not one that kids you it will be 'cheap' either to buy or to do; But look at the bikes you would LIKE to own when done. Ones that will give you inspiration to keep going; ones that will encourage you to keep heart and spend the money when and where needed and not cut corners or both or butcher it.

IF you really are convinced that you want to tackle it in the first place... because believe me; they take an awful lot more time and effort than you ever expect, they ALWAYS cost far more than you budget; and the mess and the hassle is always enormous and far beyond expectation, and NONE of it will ever be worth it unless its seen through to the finish, which is usually years up the one, not days or weeks or months!

So you tell US what would be a suitable project bike to go for......

Or count your pennies and ponder how many services you could pay a pro mechanic to do for you for likely cost of a project AND all the tools and crap you will buy along the way.....

Spannering is, no doubt, that added dimension to biking, and great fun... BUT, you have to be at least slightly stupid to do it just for fun!
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[loughy]

That was literally exactly the kind of post that I was aftering, informative and to the point.

I'm already fully aware that i'll go way over budget on cost and time but I fully accept that. Whatever I choose will definitely get finished, have a bit of OCD for that kind of stuff, can never leave anything half completed.

I'm definitely not expecting to end up in any kind of profit for the first few (if any projects) i'm not doing it for the money, its purely for the experience and to further my knowledge. I personally hate having to go to forums/ask people/pay someone to help fix any of my problems, ill always have a go/try/google first and use someone else as a last resort.

In terms of what I'm looking for, theres a guy on here who build a pitbit/supermoto from scratch - that would be the dream. To get a bike down to the bare frame and add bits piece by piece, along with fixing any faults with specific areas along the way. I fear that may be too big of a first project though as my knowledge of electrics/engines/mechanics is very limited and tbh most of the time will be spent googling and youtubing things and getting my hands dirty.

When i do this, ill go balls to the wall and everything that needs fixed, will be fixed (in relation to bearings/fork seasl etc) as the end goal is to have some form of knowledge on (ideally) every part or as many parts on a bike as possible. Even from the very boring basic stuff, I want to be able to master it from there.

i'll take a look at the rundown (rather than crashed) ER5, unless you (or others) have a better first project idea, bear in mind that itll be getting stripped down to the bare frame and rebuilt from scratch.

TL:DR - i dont care how much a. it costs b. time it takes c. difficult it is, itll get FULLY finished by hook or by crook.

[Rogerborg]

Buy Body007SocketDoctor's FZS600.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Teflon-Mike]

[loughy]

[B5234FT]

For a project, you need something which is simple, has available spares, but isnt so common you can buy a mint one for £100 more than a project.

I bought a non running supermoto 125, did a top end, chain, shock rebuild, sorted half the wiring, engine out and back in and various other bits and sold it for enough to cover my costs. The time was invested in learning.

No you'll never make money from it, but research is free and avoids burning it endlessly.

The other way to go is to buy bikes in sequence. Do a non runner and swap the engine and sell it then do one which needs something else, as opposed to replacing every single part on a single motorcycle.

[loughy]

[B5234FT]

Not really, as it's opportunistic.

Mine was a non running Husqvarna SM125 with a seized engine for £700, fixed and sold for £1250.

Problem with an ER-5 is that a basket case is £250 and a mint one is £800 so you're always better to just buy the nicest one you can afford than do something up.

The learner legal market is filled with simple, but poorly looked after bikes, but you'd have to have a look around yourself to see if the numbers stack up on sorting out a YBR125 or something.

[Teflon-Mike]

125's do have some merit IF you don't have any use beyond the mechanics, mostly in that they are so sore abused by most learners there tends to be plenty to get your teeth stuck into, and there's a reasonably ready market for them when done, so you need not loose too much.

Trouble is that the cheap chinks put a cap on prices, and a better resto will be rated along side a £1199 brand new Lexmoto, and notion of a brand new reg and a warranty means you will struggle to get sensible money for one; and you will more readily sell a piecxe of pretty painted scrap, than something contientiousely overhauled, showing its 'patina'.

Teenage revival bikes, like old TZR's or RD's or early KMX's or DT's command good money, but again, sell more readily on making them look good rather than work good.

Brings us back to the CG125 and the safety in numbers, fact its a cult bike and so still and does command 'some' premium over other Learner Legals, and is very well supported and more economical to 'do' thanks to the number of Chinese CG copy or copy motor bikes floating about. Mechanics are reasonably light weight, its a very simple air cooled push-rod single that's hardly any more daunting to tackle than an air cooled two stroke; and the rest is all pretty conventional and straight forwards. There will always be someone who will want one or be able to make use of one, at the end.

Other one to ponder, would be a Vespa PX125. Again cult status keeps prices reasonably strong, and there will always be some--one who will want or can make use of it. Mechanics are not directly translateable to a conventional bike though, with a two stroke engine, which has merit in being the simpler to spanner; but not having all the gubbins a 4T does; whilst suspension is of its own unique design, and the frame and cycleparts likewise, with step-through frame and bath-tub enclosure. For a reasonably low risk, 1st time project though, and something 'a bit different' to potentially have a bit of fun with when done, could be another likely candidate. Add some make up mirrors and a squirrel's tail on a wip areal, you could even make money on one.
____________________
My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'