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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 21:37 - 06 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hahaha. Funny banknote. Reminds me of Italian Lire. Now part of the Euro zone...

I thought this would be a good time to repeat something that appears to have been lost in squabbling and totally played down/ignored by Bremainers

Bremaining is NOT keeping things the same as they are. Bremaining would be signing up for another 40 years of the big European experiment.

People voted for membership of a preferrential economic trade block in 1974. It somehow became a bloated political entity which dictates and interferes in all aspects of daily life. If you'd told my Dad and Grandad the EEC would be instructing the UK government on everything from what manouvers you need to do to pass your driving test to how many hours a week you're allowed to work. They wouldn't have voted for it.

Think where it will be in another 40 years? Complete Fiscal union. Main European stock exchange relocated to Frankfurt from London, Federal Euro-police force on the streets. European Army.

Those are enough for me to continue to want out in spite of any perceived or possible disadvantages.

This is not pie in the sky propoganda, this is the genuine adgenda of the majority of the higher echelons of the European comission. And, apparently m the new French government. They are serious about it and we can't just keep on vetoing it for ever, they will just do it without us like they have with the Euro. They are genuinely dedicated to "Ever Closer Union." and it will end in flames.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 21:59 - 06 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

stinkwheel wrote:
People voted for membership of a preferrential economic trade block in 1974. It somehow became a bloated political entity which dictates and interferes in all aspects of daily life.


I've actually already addressed this point towards MPD and the The Schuman Declaration of 1950. It was ALWAYS going to be a political union of sorts. You can read it in Hansard when Heath was a mere MP. In short Health lied about it and knew selling it as a political union wouldn't fly. So he sold it was a economic trade bloc and the people swallowed it.

stinkwheel wrote:
Those are enough for me to continue to want out in spite of any perceived or possible disadvantages.


Sure, the problem is yeah there are consequences of doing so. The EU project is precisely an entangling system to make it very difficult to extract oneself from it. The major problem? People including yourself think you can ignore any and all of these consequences. Oh a quick fudge will satisfy the WTO. I personally don't think it will.

It stinks actually of a 150 year old type attitude actually. The British Empire colonies did what England told them to do because they had 1000s of troops and several battle cruisers berthed in their harbours. It ain't the 1850s any more.

And unfortunately there has been manoeuvring so that each gain comes with a similar sized if not bigger loss.

Like your fudge to breach WTO MFN rules. Sure you have a MFN work around. But now the 100s of container ships docking that are no longer inspected (remember inspect a single one and you breach WTO rules and therefore subject yourself to an automatic lose WTO dispute). This will undermine every single industry in the UK.


I'm not saying stop brexit at all.

Just recognise there will be problems and your fudges and many of the fudges won't fly practically and there are other consequences. You know like the PRC hoovering up UK industries so instead of being an EU thrall you become a thrall of somebody else instead.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 22:17 - 06 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:


It stinks actually of a 150 year old type attitude actually. The British Empire colonies did what England told them to do because they had 1000s of troops and several battle cruisers berthed in their harbours. It ain't the 1850s any more.


India was the jewel in the crown of the British Empire. Battle cruisers berthed in harbours here wouldn't have done much good. And do you really think we held onto India for as long as we did through sheer numbers of troops? The fact that such a small country was able to do so says as much about the people of India at that time as it does about British military prowess. Bit off topic, but I felt a point needed to be made here Smile
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 22:17 - 06 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm actually all for a hard brexit and pick up the pieces later anyway because negatiations are going to go nowhere.

The EU aren't going to let anyone leave easily, they are just delaying, fucking about an trying to milk as much mney out of the situation as possible like they did with the Maltese. It'll land up costing more than just crashing out.

If I was ruler of the UK. Stop negotiating with the EU now, start planning for hard brexit and negotiating with everyone else. Leave on 29/3/19. No "divorce bill". Go from there.

In the meantime, I'd veto the fuck out of anything in the EU that looks to be even slightly contrary to the UKs best interests post brexit.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 22:50 - 06 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Speaking of worthless reams of paper, in a secret ballot, MPs and "Lords" have voted Nick Clegg's "How to Stop Brexit" as their book of the year.

No, not a dangerous fantasy, an actual fact.

[Brendan Cox said:] to be living at a time when hatred is being driven against different groups in a way it hasn’t been since the 1930s

Eh? Rwandan genocide anyone? But no Trump's worse. Rolling Eyes

stinkwheel wrote:
People voted for membership of a preferrential economic trade block in 1974. It somehow became a bloated political entity which dictates and interferes in all aspects of daily life. If you'd told my Dad and Grandad the EEC would be instructing the UK government on everything from what manouvers you need to do to pass your driving test to how many hours a week you're allowed to work. They wouldn't have voted for it.

And yet a lot of people who were against it then are pro EU now Thinking

Itchy wrote:
I've actually already addressed this point towards MPD and the The Schuman Declaration of 1950. It was ALWAYS going to be a political union of sorts. You can read it in Hansard when Heath was a mere MP. In short Health lied about it and knew selling it as a political union wouldn't fly. So he sold it was a economic trade bloc and the people swallowed it.

Was it written on the side of a bus?
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Raffles
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PostPosted: 23:59 - 06 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
And yet a lot of people who were against it then are pro EU now Thinking

Are you able to verify that assertion?
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M.C
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PostPosted: 01:07 - 07 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raffles wrote:
M.C wrote:
And yet a lot of people who were against it then are pro EU now Thinking

Are you able to verify that assertion?

People I know, I think Jeremy Corbyn's a high profile example of this. But then I don't follow the youngins all wanted to stay and racist old people wanted to leave narrative, again due to anecdotal evidence, the same evidence that lead me to believe the referendum wasn't a foregone conclusion.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 01:21 - 07 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Raffles wrote:
M.C wrote:
And yet a lot of people who were against it then are pro EU now Thinking

Are you able to verify that assertion?


My in laws, the majority of whom are/were successful business people, Campaigned against it back in the day, and all of them, to a person, are now for it.

Whereas I just don't like the French.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 01:40 - 07 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
My in laws, the majority of whom are/were successful business people, Campaigned against it back in the day, and all of them, to a person, are now for it.

As a piece of logic I find it hard to understand. If they didn't like it then why are they now in favour of the monster it's become? Were they wrong?

The only explanation I've been given is that it was cool (back then) to be against the government, when I guess now it isn't...

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/53813942/conformist.jpg
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 08:33 - 07 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Just recognise there will be problems

Cutting out a tumour is a painful, messy business, but the alternative is worse.

The real issue is the surgical team performing the operation. Hammond has just come out and said that we'll pay the agreed hundred billion to Brussels regardless of whether we get any sort of trade deal or not. Brick Wall
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 08:37 - 07 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Itchy wrote:
Just recognise there will be problems

Cutting out a tumour is a painful, messy business, but the alternative is worse.

The real issue is the surgical team performing the operation. Hammond has just come out and said that we'll pay the agreed hundred billion to Brussels regardless of whether we get any sort of trade deal or not. Brick Wall


Sometimes the alternative is better, specifically if you can't remove everything.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 08:38 - 07 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
My in laws, the majority of whom are/were successful business people, Campaigned against it back in the day, and all of them, to a person, are now for it.

As a piece of logic I find it hard to understand. If they didn't like it then why are they now in favour of the monster it's become? Were they wrong?

The only explanation I've been given is that it was cool (back then) to be against the government, when I guess now it isn't...

https://memegenerator.net/img/instances/500x/53813942/conformist.jpg


Probably because they see the amount of upheaval it's going to cause. Either that or the fact the main customer base wasn't EU.
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 09:29 - 07 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

It makes no difference if we leave or remain now. Half of the nation is going to be angry at the other half no matter what and it'll take generations that that to go.

Productivity is low but that's because of all the disabled people who are working, apparently.

This country is a legend in it's own lunchtime. What started out as a way to shut up anti-europe Tories and prevent their party splitting has snowballed when all they really needed to do was wait a few years for most of them to die of old age.

The decisions are being made by lazy incompetents with no vision, morals or commitment. We're going to wallow in infighting whilst the country degenerates.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:23 - 07 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sun.

Lit.

Up.

Lands.

Folded arms
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 12:42 - 07 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:

People I know, I think Jeremy Corbyn's a high profile example of this. But then I don't follow the youngins all wanted to stay and racist old people wanted to leave narrative, again due to anecdotal evidence, the same evidence that lead me to believe the referendum wasn't a foregone conclusion.


Corbyn is a bigger hard brexiteer than May

From what i've seen of the polling, most people who voted for the common market in 75', want to leave now.

Most twats that went to uni and got told the EU is great and the Tories are evil voted to remain, most people who just went out to work understood the reality.

Support of the Eu is about ' what can the country do for me'' rather than what i can do for the country''
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 12:44 - 07 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

ScaredyCat wrote:
It makes no difference if we leave or remain now. Half of the nation is going to be angry at the other half no matter what and it'll take generations that that to go.

Productivity is low but that's because of all the disabled people who are working, apparently.

This country is a legend in it's own lunchtime. What started out as a way to shut up anti-europe Tories and prevent their party splitting has snowballed when all they really needed to do was wait a few years for most of them to die of old age.

The decisions are being made by lazy incompetents with no vision, morals or commitment. We're going to wallow in infighting whilst the country degenerates.


So why do the Europeans have a better vision?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:59 - 07 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Fzs wrote:
So why do the Europeans have a better vision?

Is it Martin Schultz' vision for a United States of Europe? Get in, or get out.

Dangerouse fantasies all round, eh?
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 14:20 - 07 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Fzs wrote:
Support of the Eu is about ' what can the country do for me''


No it isn't. It's about seeing beyond nationalism.

Rob Fzs wrote:
"what i can do for the country''


Your country doesn't give a fuck about you. They'd sell you for a penny chew, 5 minutes of press time or as cannon fodder whithout a second thought - take your pick.

Why do you think you owe it anything anyway?

If MPs put the country last why would you expect anyone else to do any different?

This country went down the shitter a long time ago. It has nothing to do with the EU, nothing to do with imigration but everything to do with the self obsessed, money grabbing, selfish society we've built for ourselves.


Rob Fzs wrote:
So why do the Europeans have a better vision?


I don't recall saying that they did.
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Last edited by ScaredyCat on 14:25 - 07 Dec 2017; edited 1 time in total
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:22 - 07 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

ScaredyCat wrote:

This world went down the shitter a long time ago. It has nothing to do with the EU, nothing to do with imigration but everything to do with the self obsessed, money grabbing, selfish society we've built for ourselves.


FTFY.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:34 - 07 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

ScaredyCat wrote:
It's about seeing beyond nationalism.

Globalism is better. All nations are equal, all people are equal, all cultures are equal, all borders are just social constructs of raciophobic colonialism.
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ScaredyCat
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PostPosted: 15:12 - 07 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:
ScaredyCat wrote:

No it isn't. It's about seeing beyond nationalism.


Ah, the Federal State(s) of Europe. Thumbs Up


There you go again with your limited view of the world, making your assumptions.


Rogerborg wrote:

Globalism is better. All nations are equal, all people are equal, all cultures are equal, all borders are just social constructs of raciophobic colonialism.


Beginning to wonder if mpd is one of your sock accounts.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:22 - 07 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

ScaredyCat wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:

Globalism is better. All nations are equal, all people are equal, all cultures are equal, all borders are just social constructs of raciophobic colonialism.

Beginning to wonder if mpd is one of your sock accounts.

Well, which is it to be? Borders, or no borders? Nations, or one happy clappy peaceful integrated equal tolerant plentiful world?

Write in answers will be accepted.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 15:39 - 07 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

mpd72 wrote:


Martin Schulz‏Verified account
@martinschulz
A convention shall draft this treaty in close cooperation with the civil society and the people. Its results will then be submitted to all member states. Any state that won’t ratify this treaty will automatically leave the EU.


Rolling Eyes And to think, we could've just waited.
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