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Brexit: What do you think will happen?

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Itchy
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PostPosted: 18:00 - 19 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:


Why shouldn't they? If 1950s MPs had said "Marriage will be forever protected from the gays. So, no bummers, not ever." should that stand as eternal law? Is that what you're saying?

Wow, I never had you pegged as a homophobe. Shocked



Because not all changes are positive things. A lot of people hold themselves to a higher standard than other places. They can do this because certain things aren't done. Yet there appears to be appetite to emulate bad parts of bad places.
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 19:32 - 19 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Rob Fzs wrote:

This then begs the question of whether we want our own charter of rights or whether we revert to the British model of having the constitution undefined but embodied by the broader statue book. If we are to have something like the ECFR then it should be looked at in the context of wider constitutional reform. Bottom line... this is a total non-story.



How is it a non story? Effectively you have no rights whatsoever other than implied ones that are thought to exist but may not.

So you're celebrating the lack of rights? Call me names or anything but I don't think this is a particularly good thing.

When taken in the context of May who says she will change laws to get her own laws the EU said no to. It actually is much worse.


Its a none story Laughing

How can we vote to retain an Eu construct when we're leaving it? just like we have to leave the Eu's customs union, also bizarre thoughts that whatever you think we're leaving, cant be recreated by the law makers in our parliament, you whinge our system is rotten, and then moan when an opportunity arises to take back more control aswell...

Unless it cant be dealt with, it's a none issue i wouldn't get laboured over.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:51 - 19 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Because not all changes are positive things.

When was / will be / will have been the pinnacle of goodlaw?

We should be sure to freeze all legislation at that point, on your say-so, and never, ever allow mere elected representatives to change it again, lest they regress from that lofty peak of perfection.

Sound reasonable?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 09:58 - 20 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rob Fzs wrote:
you whinge our system is rotten, and then moan when an opportunity arises to take back more control aswell...



Since when? Like I said the sovereignty argument is bogus. In the year from the Brexit vote the PRC has doubled their FDI.

Give it a few years and you'll hand over the deeds.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:12 - 20 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
[China China China]

I for one welcome our new 105 IQ and progressive-derangement-syndrome-free overlords.

We could, and currently do, have worse people running Britannia into the ground. In a straight up choice between ruled from Brussels or owned by Beijing, I'd take the yellow peril every time.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 10:14 - 20 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:

When was / will be / will have been the pinnacle of goodlaw?

We should be sure to freeze all legislation at that point, on your say-so, and never, ever allow mere elected representatives to change it again, lest they regress from that lofty peak of perfection.

Sound reasonable?


Somewhat, primarily because a whole load of the new laws are unnecessary anyway and are knee jerk reactions that are enacted to make them seem like they're doing something.


Ah yes I shall make carrying say knives illegal. Except it already was illegal without a valid defence.

Or ah I shall make throwing acid in somebody's face illegal... I'm pretty sure it already wasn't cricket before such laws/amendments were made.

As such Parliament would actually be able to focus on more important things.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 10:16 - 20 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
I for one welcome our new 105115 IQ and progressive-derangement-syndrome-free overlords.



FFTY
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:55 - 20 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Parliament would actually be able to focus on more important things.

We wouldn't need them to, since you've already set all laws in stone forever.

Also, you didn't answer the question.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 12:11 - 20 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:

We wouldn't need them to, since you've already set all laws in stone forever.

Also, you didn't answer the question.


Like I said some things SHOULD be irrevocable. Things like right to a trial etc and thus they should be set in stone and should not be changed forever.

Something like a fundamental written charter with no get out clauses like the 98 act has. Yet strangely people argue against such a measure on the basis that politicians have our best interests at heart. Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing Laughing

Other aspects not really.

It's strange how you're arguing for less rights and the ability for politicians to make your life worse.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:42 - 20 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
It's strange how you're arguing for less rights and the ability for politicians to make your life worse.

That's not at all what I'm arguing.

I'm asking you who should decide on these eternal laws which can never, ever be over-ridden.

Obviously it can't be our elected representatives, since they're all freedom hating fox hunting Nazis.

So, who gets to declare that they have the irrevocable power to set the definition of goodlaw for once and always?

The monarch? You? Me? The Trump-Farage-Hitler waiting to seize power on the back of a democratic populist landslide?

You might not like what I or Trump-Farage-Hitler comes up with, is what I'm saying.

Our definition of a thousand year bill of rights to protect the British people and culture may differ somewhat from yours.

So in whom are you putting your trust?
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 13:17 - 20 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Rob Fzs wrote:
you whinge our system is rotten, and then moan when an opportunity arises to take back more control aswell...



Since when? Like I said the sovereignty argument is bogus. In the year from the Brexit vote the PRC has doubled their FDI.

Give it a few years and you'll hand over the deeds.

That wasn't what i asked

How can we vote to retain an Eu construct when we're leaving it?

Leaving a 40 year long political partnership is always going to be messy, but we have elected representatives to deal with that and a press to keep them in line.
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Val
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PostPosted: 14:32 - 20 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
To answer the original thread question what will happen next:

Canada++ tory desire deal means long at least 2+2=4 years transition period and negotiation which will finally fail in 2023.

Brace yourself for the UK begging to join the EU again after labour winning 2025 GE with a Chuka Umunna leader after another Corbyn failure in 2020 GE Laughing
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 14:35 - 20 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rob Fzs wrote:
How can we vote to retain an Eu construct when we're leaving it?



The EU construct becomes void March 2019 anyway.

The question is what replaces it if anything?

Are there any motions to replace or replicate or just a we'll do it when we've got a moment type thinking?

While the UK has the 98 act. It doesn't cover several things and the PM has wanted to scrap it.
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 14:39 - 20 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Val wrote:
To answer the original thread question what will happen next:

Canada++ tory desire deal means long at least 2+2=4 years transition period and negotiation which will finally fail in 2023.

Brace yourself for the UK begging to join the EU again after labour winning 2025 GE with a Chuka Umunna leader after another Corbyn failure in 2020 GE Laughing


Chuka is a Blairite and thus, wont shift the momentum rot that will re-elect another hard leftist.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 14:43 - 20 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rob Fzs wrote:
Leaving a 40 year long political partnership is always going to be messy,


You're quoting or at least paraphrasing me now. You think I don't know this? You keep conflating the issue with har har you don't want to leave.

I'm just saying hmm maybe you ought to consider if this is the right way to go about things?

It's like suicide jumpers on the MTR. I don't convince them not to jump but inform them maybe they can go to Fo Tan where there is a bypass line so trains won't get delayed.

As above you've got a super authoritarian government who has wanted to scrap the act but has been blocked numerous times.

Rob Fzs wrote:
but we have elected representatives to deal with that and a press to keep them in line.


It makes a nice sound bite but it doesn't really reflect how it is.

Somebody gets caught doing something bad?

They apologise or resign... that's it... how is that being kept in line? In a society where there is shame and embarrassment say like S Korea when bad things happen the person responsible tends to kill themselves. They don't even do bottle of whiskey and loaded revolver any more in the UK... perhaps it ought to be bought back.
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 15:01 - 20 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Rob Fzs wrote:
Leaving a 40 year long political partnership is always going to be messy,


You're quoting or at least paraphrasing me now. You think I don't know this? You keep conflating the issue with har har you don't want to leave.

I'm just saying hmm maybe you ought to consider if this is the right way to go about things?

It's like suicide jumpers on the MTR. I don't convince them not to jump but inform them maybe they can go to Fo Tan where there is a bypass line so trains won't get delayed.

As above you've got a super authoritarian government who has wanted to scrap the act but has been blocked numerous times.

Rob Fzs wrote:
but we have elected representatives to deal with that and a press to keep them in line.


It makes a nice sound bite but it doesn't really reflect how it is.

Somebody gets caught doing something bad?

They apologise or resign... that's it... how is that being kept in line? In a society where there is shame and embarrassment say like S Korea when bad things happen the person responsible tends to kill themselves. They don't even do bottle of whiskey and loaded revolver any more in the UK... perhaps it ought to be bought back.


So you would prefer people top themselves if they screw up? Laughing

I'm not legally minded enough to offer a solution to your issue, i doubt you are either, but like everything, a solution will and can be found.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 15:11 - 20 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rob Fzs wrote:
So you would prefer people top themselves if they screw up? Laughing


Merely that there needs to be harsher consequences for screwing up.

The usual platitudes of a non apology then a resignation* is merely an inconvenience.


*of which they will of course get a generous severance package.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:15 - 20 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Val wrote:
Brace yourself for the UK begging to join the EU again after labour winning 2025 GE

I expect that to happen on 30th March 2019.
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 17:56 - 20 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Itchy wrote:
Rob Fzs wrote:
So you would prefer people top themselves if they screw up? Laughing


Merely that there needs to be harsher consequences for screwing up.

The usual platitudes of a non apology then a resignation* is merely an inconvenience.


*of which they will of course get a generous severance package.


Problem we get then, is people wont want to do the job as they would be scared of the consequences of them doing wrong...
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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PostPosted: 18:57 - 20 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rob Fzs wrote:


Problem we get then, is people wont want to do the job as they would be scared of the consequences of them doing wrong...


Would you get a 6 figure bonus if you run a company into the ground?

If so, can I have a job at your place?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:48 - 20 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rob Fzs wrote:
Problem we get then, is people wont want to do the job as they would be scared of the consequences of them doing wrong...

I'd be OK with: no further rewards from raping the failed company's corpse, barred as a director.

Not that the latter makes a blind bit of difference, as they can just appoint some idiot brother-in-law as a catspaw. Seen first hand.
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 20:05 - 20 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Jewlio Rides Again LLB wrote:
Rob Fzs wrote:


Problem we get then, is people wont want to do the job as they would be scared of the consequences of them doing wrong...


Would you get a 6 figure bonus if you run a company into the ground?

If so, can I have a job at your place?


Pm me your CV
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:20 - 24 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Parliament debated “Leave the EU immediately”.

tl;dr transcript - Ha ha. No.

Sad
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 13:06 - 24 Jan 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Parliament debated “Leave the EU immediately”.

tl;dr transcript - Ha ha. No.

Sad


We could leave right now, if we joined Efta and carried on the EEA agreement to get out

But instead, we've got this weird transition for 2 years or 10 years, while the Eu sucks us dry for some crappy fta that brexiteers are getting walked all over on because they don't do detail.

They're already softening up with a customs union and the ECJ will be next
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