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chickenstrip
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 Posted: 14:11 - 13 Nov 2018  Post subject: |
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| Diggs wrote: | Ok, no crystal ball but a healthy degree of cynicism. |
You and me togevver bruv! With your cynicism and my sarcasm, we can rule the world! 
Failing that, can anyone here actually predict the future with any kind of accuracy? No? Thought not.
Otoh, everyone got the outcome of the EU referendum right, didn't they? I mean, how hard could that one have been, given that we can all predict everything to do with politics, economics and the rest?
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Polarbear
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| Posted: 14:19 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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| Diggs wrote: | mpd, how are you going to be able to fund your nuclear power-plant underneath the bonnet of your personal transportation? |
Nuclear was only one suggested alternative. Technology moves on, by the time we run out of oil, the powers that be, who currently dominate the planet due to oil, will have an alternative ready to sell.
| Diggs wrote: | Why do you think the oil companies will 'provide' useable power at a domestic level once oil is too expensive? |
You don't really understand how business works do you? You need a market to sell to. Price yourself out of the market and you fail.
| Diggs wrote: | The shareholders of these companies will disappear behind their gated communities, safe in the knowledge that they own a means of production of food. They won't be looking out for you... |
Rather than carrying on the life of luxury from selling their goods? Righto... Far out man.
| Diggs wrote: | Electricity will continue to be generated albeit at a much lower, local level and will not be available for your Prius MkIV or whatever because you won't have the ability to pay for it. |
If only households could generate their own energy such as solar or wind eh? Hang on, I've got an idea... 
| Diggs wrote: | This will have a far greater impact upon your life than immigration or the balance of black v white on QT. |
You think we'll run out of energy before Islam dominates Europe? I don't. They're well under way already. The spread is probably too irreversible now and the control of Islam is already widespread.
Think about this for a minute.. There's a Christian woman in Pakistan who faces imminent death, due to the Muslim majority wanting to hang her for drinking from a cup, which Muslims also wanted to use.
Out government are refusing to give her asylum because it might upset our Muslim population.
We let ISIS fighters return to the UK without being apprehended and let them carry on their life on benefits. Let that sink in for a minute, then tell me who's really in charge of the UK.
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| Posted: 14:21 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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| Polarbear wrote: | Liquefied Natural Gas is Methane.
We and Europe have been importing it from outside since the 60's.
I was cadet on the second purpose built LNG carrier bringing it from Arzew, Algeria to various ports in Europe and UK.
I can assure you that Nigeria, Algeria and the other major suppliers won't give a rats arse who they sell it to, EU member or not.
Same with oil.
Stupid argument. |
Yes, but you never stuck a pipe up your arse, did you? 
Otoh, some of the disreputable places you've been... 
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Diggs
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| Posted: 14:32 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Polarbear I meant home-produced and locally used, not imported. In my scenario the infrastructure won't exist to transport it from ports to consumers.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 14:38 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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| Diggs wrote: | In my scenario... |
Phew, thank feck for that! I thought you knew what you were banging on about for a minute there!
From what I can see, future energy sources are a worldwide problem, not caused by Brexit. We in the UK actually aren't doing too badly with renewables at present.
And I am. I'm actually gonna stick a pipe up my arse. Methane or no methane
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Diggs
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| Posted: 14:40 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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mdp - do you seriously think the 'market' will maintain the comfortable existence you currently enjoy for any longer than you are able to pay for goods and services?
Of course there will be adjustments as fossil fuels wane, but these adjustments will not be able to provide you with a continuation of your current existence. Our society only exists at the level it does because of the availability of cheap fossil fuel.
To say that I "don't really understand how business works" demonstrates your lack of understanding rather than mine, old son...
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 14:44 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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| Diggs wrote: |
Of course there will be adjustments as fossil fuels wane, but these adjustments will not be able to provide you with a continuation of your current existence. Our society only exists at the level it does because of the availability of cheap fossil fuel. |
I think most of the developed world has actually seriously begun to accept that this is the case and is working towards alternatives. Again, how does Brexit affect this? Have we not already accepted that the ICE is a dinosaur, soon to be completely outlawed in many places?
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Diggs
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| Posted: 15:00 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Unfortunately we aren't working fast enough in this country. Look at personal car ownership as an example - unless you live next to a railway or tram service, once oil becomes too expensive for day to day use you had better hope that your place of employment is within walking distance...
In terms of renewables, how long has it taken us to implement the current Building Regs Part L? Way too long unfortunately.
Our Planning system doesn't require use of sustainable energy sources, just that all development be 'sustainable'. This word means nothing in reality.
Renewables will provide energy and heat for those that can afford to invest in them before it all goes tits-up, not the bulk of the population.
I could go on, but I sense a general view that the 'market' will provide, or if it can't, a Government will do. Sadly I have faith in neither in the long term...
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| Posted: 15:04 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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| Diggs wrote: | mdp - do you seriously think the 'market' will maintain the comfortable existence you currently enjoy for any longer than you are able to pay for goods and services? |
Supply and demand. When price gets too high, alternatives will come into play. You do realise there are already several alternatives to natural oil don't you? Alcohol is flammable, even orange juice can be used to fire an ICE engine. We have fully synthetic oil already.
| Diggs wrote: | Of course there will be adjustments as fossil fuels wane, but these adjustments will not be able to provide you with a continuation of your current existence. Our society only exists at the level it does because of the availability of cheap fossil fuel. |
More naive opinion quoted as fact, with absolutely nothing to substantiate it. The shift away from fossil fuels disproves the cobblers you've just come out with. We'll never run out of oil, it will just become less economically and environmentally viable than alternative fuels.
| Diggs wrote: | To say that I "don't really understand how business works" demonstrates your lack of understanding rather than mine, old son... |
Your naive, one sided view, clearly forgets that a business needs customers. Your fruitcake view of Armageddon, with all the oil producers locking themselves away in a living dead zombie world is frankly laughable.
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| Posted: 15:16 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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I read once that we have the ability to feed a maximum of 40 million people in Britain, if the Government had a mind to make it so. This figure depended upon use of fossil fuels to farm and transport.
Remind me, mpd old chap, oh wise, all-seeing being, just how large our population is at the moment and how much of our food we currently import?
Now, just assume for a second that global energy isn't as cheap as it is right now and that food prices rise as a result of increased production, transportation and storage costs. Assume also that you don't earn any more than you do now because whoever you work for cannot make a bigger profit. What happens when you go to the supermarket and you find that you can no longer afford to feed your black wife and your racially mixed, gender non-specific offspring?
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| Posted: 15:22 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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| Diggs wrote: | I read once that we have the ability to feed a maximum of 40 million people in Britain, if the Government had a mind to make it so. This figure depended upon use of fossil fuels to farm and transport.
Remind me, mpd old chap, oh wise, all-seeing being, just how large our population is at the moment and how much of our food we currently import?
Now, just assume for a second that global energy isn't as cheap as it is right now and that food prices rise as a result of increased production, transportation and storage costs. Assume also that you don't earn any more than you do now because whoever you work for cannot make a bigger profit. What happens when you go to the supermarket and you find that you can no longer afford to feed your black wife and your racially mixed, gender non-specific offspring? |
I've highlighted the important bit, you know, the bit where you ASSume that oil prices have remained stable for the last 100 years all over the globe. In 10 year periods, the price has increased by at least 6 fold. Kittens did not die, trends adapted and changed to suit.
You really don't see the gaping flaws in any of your arguments do you? Oil is not the only fuel, it's just currently more convenient and cheaper than some alternatives. It's fluctuation in price can be extreme, but nothing much changes. Don't forget that the vast majority of money spent on fuel in this country and many others is tax and not oil.
https://www.infomine.com/ChartsAndData/GraphEngine.ashx?z=f&gf=110537.USD.bbl&dr=max
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Last edited by - on 15:27 - 13 Nov 2018; edited 2 times in total |
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 15:22 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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| Diggs wrote: | Unfortunately we aren't working fast enough in this country. Look at personal car ownership as an example - unless you live next to a railway or tram service, once oil becomes too expensive for day to day use you had better hope that your place of employment is within walking distance... |
It wouldn't be a bad idea for people to live close to where they work. It's up to government and employers to make that possible. After all, who wants a long commute everyday?
| Quote: | In terms of renewables, how long has it taken us to implement the current Building Regs Part L? Way too long unfortunately. |
Yes, we need to step this up.
| Quote: | Renewables will provide energy and heat for those that can afford to invest in them before it all goes tits-up, not the bulk of the population. |
It will have to provide for all our needs, or we are indeed doomed. But then, we all know that ever-growing world populations and the planet's finite resources are driving the real problems. Again, not Brexit.
| Quote: | I could go on, but I sense a general view that the 'market' will provide, or if it can't, a Government will do. Sadly I have faith in neither in the long term... |
I bet I'm worse off than you, but I don't let any of it get me down too much. I mean, does it help if I do? Cheer up 
But I also feel that it is perhaps about time we all learned to accept a little less extravagant luxury in our lives. It isn't necessary on the scale people have become accustomed to, to live a happy and fulfilling life. People will just have to accept change, and learn to adapt.
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Diggs
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| Posted: 15:44 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Chickenstrip I agree with you once more. We will go to less of a consumer plastic-based economy to one where men wear rough shirts and sing sea-shanties whilst sipping stoops of real ale, and all women are busty...
mpd your graph shows a rise from 30 dollars to 80 with no account taken of inflation, and little (I presume) of what happens when the stuff becomes uneconomic to extract. It is meaningless therefore as a predictor of future prices.
At what point did I assume prices had remained constant for the preceding 100 years?
You make a valid point about the proportion of tax to oil. Imagine a scenario where oil consumption reduces because we can't afford it, and tax revenues drop...
Regarding alternatives, of course there are many. Are you geared up to ferment your own biofuel? What about even higher food prices as more land is taken up to grow plant-matter for ethanol?
Don't be deluded into thinking that neo-classical economics will retain a comfortable lifestyle just for you, because this isn't so.
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| Posted: 15:52 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Nope, not scared yet. Try harder
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Diggs
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| Posted: 15:59 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Not trying to scare anybody, merely pointing out to mpd that there are bigger things coming along in life than Diane Abbot's television appearances... I am trying to remove his neo-Nazi tunnel vision, and I see this as my good deed for the day.
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| Posted: 16:00 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Admittedly in a most patronising manner, however I accept this...
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| Posted: 16:07 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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| Diggs wrote: | Not trying to scare anybody, merely pointing out to mpd that there are bigger things coming along in life than Diane Abbot's television appearances... I am trying to remove his neo-Nazi tunnel vision, and I see this as my good deed for the day. |
I guess us unemployed scum need something to occupy ourselves
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| Posted: 16:15 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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| Diggs wrote: |
mpd your graph shows a rise from 30 dollars to 80 with no account taken of inflation, |
I know you're not the best with figures Dianne, It doesn't though does it? Look again. In 2002 it dropped to under $20 a barrel, then only 6 years later, it was up to $140 a barrel. Here you go. a 700% rise in 6 years. That's enough to fund twelfty police officers Dianne.
You can't just cherry pick your particular years and ignore the other changes because they were higher. Reality doesn't work that way. This fluctuation has been going on for over 50 years.
https://www.infomine.com/ChartsAndData/GraphEngine.ashx?z=f&gf=110537.USD.bbl&dr=max
You're using the same left wing tactic of Project Fear with regards to doom when oil supplies run low, as you lot do for trying to justify staying within the EU. It's a pretty poor tactic, because you leave yourself open to fact, which doesn't follow your rhetoric.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 16:21 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Btw:
| Diggs wrote: | Chickenstrip I agree with you once more. We will go to less of a consumer plastic-based economy to one where men wear rough shirts and sing sea-shanties whilst sipping stoops of real ale, and all women are busty... |
Bring it on!
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| Posted: 17:06 - 13 Nov 2018 Post subject: |
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Feck me, Project Fear is trying to play to football fans now.
Yep, Premier League teams will have to reduce their 25 man squads from 17 foreign players to 12 now because Brexit innit.
https://talksport.com/football/445326/fa-brexit-premier-league-homegrown-foreign/
| Quote: | Plans put forward by the Football Association will see the Premier League’s homegrown players rule drastically changed to deal with Brexit. |
WTF has Brexit got to do with the number of foreign players allowed? We don't have freedom of movement with countries outside of the EU, but the last time I looked, we had players from all over the world in English sides.
| Project Fear wrote: | with a no-deal situation a potential disaster for England’s top flight; in this scenario, all EU players would have to be awarded a work permit under the same restrictions as non-EU players currently are. |
And this would be a problem how exactly? Can we not grant 80 or so work permits to high paid tax payers from Europe as well as the ones from the RoW?
Oh noes, panic! It's doomed, Football is bloody doomed!
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