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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:21 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, whatevs.

Ribenapigeon wrote:
I think the divisions in society will get deeper. Seething resentment and quiet anger will turn to real hatred and actual violence.

By whom against whom?
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Suntan Sid
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PostPosted: 13:08 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
By whom against whom?


The pitchforked mob, with any luck they'll ransack every fcukin' starbuckscostanero and destroy all cctv and speed cameras!
We can only hope! Wink
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:32 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Suntan Sid wrote:


The pitchforked mob, with any luck they'll ransack every fcukin' starbuckscostanero and destroy all cctv and speed cameras!
We can only hope! Wink


Dream on. I think the spirit of the British people has been ground down too far (intentionally?) for any of that stuff. We are weak sheep.
Thinking Unless maybe there's a free tv in it.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 15:47 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:





It's summed up as easier to be a parasite than to be a producer.



Or its easier to buy off the masses with tax credits than have employers pay better. A zero sum game where eventually nobody is paying enough tax to support it.

The future is I think destined to be a high tech version of Victorian Britain. Large sections of society will be just put into a kind of storage. Shelved at minimum cost possible until the Soylent Green factories are fully automated.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 15:58 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Storing useless stuff is very wasteful.
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Ribenapigeon
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PostPosted: 16:08 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:


Dream on. I think the spirit of the British people has been ground down too far (intentionally?) for any of that stuff. We are weak sheep.
Thinking Unless maybe there's a free tv in it.


Dont laugh. What do you think got the punters bums onto church pews back in the day? The non conformest churches bought up a congregation by offering literacy, the 17th century equivalent of a smartphone. And you can bet around the back of the church there was some guy lurking selling "erotic" literature to the newly literate. Next thing you know the peasants are kicking off.

All there needs is someone to start offering free technotoys to anyone who will turn up to a rally... Ahemmm.... Meeting and bobs yer Fuhrer.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 16:15 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ribenapigeon wrote:
The future is I think destined to be a high tech version of Victorian Britain. Large sections of society will be just put into a kind of storage. Shelved at minimum cost possible until the Soylent Green factories are fully automated.



I actually think TPTB will resort to what they've always done. That is they'll make up a war somewhere like Vietnam or N Korea. They will then bring back mass wave infantry attacks.

Much like WW1 where soldiers were asked to walk in neat lines so the Germans could pick them off easily.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:43 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
they'll make up a war somewhere like Vietnam or N Korea. They will then bring back mass wave infantry attacks.

They'd have to cull conchies on the home front, given that I expect most modern Brits to say "Not my problem, bruv, I'll do me time in Playstation Camp. Oh, you can't afford that? Thought so."


Itchy wrote:
Much like WW1 where soldiers were asked to walk in neat lines so the Germans could pick them off easily.

Do you genuinely believe that it was a specific, explicit strategy in WWI to cull our own troops?

Given that the loss among the officer classes (the toffs) was even higher, how deep and shadowy and spooooky was the cabal behind this?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 16:50 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remember that the Asian mind doesn't work in the same way as the western mind. Remember all those human wave attacks the N.Vietnamese and N.Koreans carried out in those respective wars? Not to mention the Japanese in countless actions during WW2. I rather suspect the Chinese would resort to the same if the nukes weren't flying. Strange people.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 17:12 - 18 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
They'd have to cull conchies on the home front, given that I expect most modern Brits to say "Not my problem, bruv, I'll do me time in Playstation Camp.


Rogerborg wrote:
Do you genuinely believe that it was a specific, explicit strategy in WWI to cull our own troops?



Funny you mention this. Infantry in WW1 who refused to rush the enemy machine guns were shot for cowardice. Exactly the same will happen.

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chickenstrip wrote:
Remember that the Asian mind doesn't work in the same way as the western mind. Remember all those human wave attacks the N.Vietnamese and N.Koreans carried out in those respective wars? I rather suspect the Chinese would resort to the same if the nukes weren't flying. Strange people.



Not at all. You see China had just come out of 40 years of almost continuous war. China in 1950 was poorer than Ethopia The soldiers who went to Korea had no other viable choices. Air support? There wasn't any, artillery there wasn't any either, tanks there weren't any of those things either. They had no other choice.

Despite this they inflicted 0.9 : 1 casualties on the UN task force with a massive technological gap. It was 1978 during a war with Vietnam when the tactic was found to be ineffective and famously Xiao Ping said this isn't working maybe we should try something else.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:36 - 19 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Do you genuinely believe that it was a specific, explicit strategy in WWI to cull our own troops?

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Sload
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PostPosted: 10:15 - 19 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
Do you genuinely believe that it was a specific, explicit strategy in WWI to cull our own troops?


No, although it was the last war I think where the children of influential people got mown down with the rest of the sheep.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 10:26 - 19 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sload wrote:
No, although it was the last war I think where the children of influential people got mown down with the rest of the sheep.

Some 12% of the British army's ordinary soldiers were killed during the [first world] war, compared with 17% of its officers. Eton alone lost more than 1,000 former pupils - 20% of those who served. UK wartime Prime Minister Herbert Asquith lost a son, while future Prime Minister Andrew Bonar Law lost two. Anthony Eden lost two brothers, another brother of his was terribly wounded, and an uncle was captured.

Itchy:
Rogerborg wrote:
Do you genuinely believe that it was a specific, explicit strategy in WWI to cull our own troops?

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Itchy
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PostPosted: 11:48 - 19 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Do you genuinely believe that it was a specific, explicit strategy in WWI to cull our own troops?
[/quote]


Absolutely.

You see you point towards Etonians as being upper classes. They're not they're the middle class a whole load of people mistakenly think they are middle class, yet they have to go out and work. That is not middle class. Thus all those Etonians? They're expendable too.

Until you see Rothschilds, Rockerfellers, Du Ponts and or their children etc being ordered to line up in neat rows to be gunned down my point still stands.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:27 - 19 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
Do you genuinely believe that it was a specific, explicit strategy in WWI to cull our own troops?

Absolutely.

Why do you believe that? Based on what evidence?

The prime minister's son got done in by the Hun.

How did (((they))) persuade Asquith to send him over the top in some apparently sub-optimal strategy that was designed to not defeat the Bosch until we'd culled and crippled millions of young men.

Specific examples of how both sides employed equally incompetent fight-to-not-win strategies, please, and the (((individuals))) who gave those orders, and why they were followed by our politicians and military.

Hint: using 20:20 hindsight or imaginary technologies or tactics that didn't exist at the time will result in 2 demerits.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 12:45 - 19 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Why do you believe that? Based on what evidence?


I don't need to rely on imaginary tactics or technologies.

A lot of the things can be explained for example walking rather than running. Boggy ground and too much equipment.

However a number of things can't be explained other than the cull theory.

One of them was from years ago something I remember from somewhere.

British soldiers were ordered to hold their rifles against their chests. I'm not a military man, you're not a military man. But I know that the shooty bit goes towards the enemy. Soldiers 2000 years ago knew the pointy bits went towards the enemy.

It was 1917 and not the Napoleonic wars. Rifles were a well developed technology where they were fast long ranged and accurate.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:10 - 19 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:


A lot of the things can be explained for example walking rather than running. Boggy ground and too much equipment.

However a number of things can't be explained other than the cull theory.

One of them was from years ago something I remember from somewhere.

British soldiers were ordered to hold their rifles against their chests. I'm not a military man, you're not a military man. But I know that the shooty bit goes towards the enemy. Soldiers 2000 years ago knew the pointy bits went towards the enemy.

It was 1917 and not the Napoleonic wars. Rifles were a well developed technology where they were fast long ranged and accurate.


Soldiers were told to walk, not run because it was boggy ground. This was an attempt to keep the cohesion of the attack. Soldiers approaching the enemy lines in dribs and drabs would not have been very effective. It is a method that has been used by many armies before and since.

British tactics were misguided, not deliberately suicidal. Higher command was often shown to be incompetent. This sometimes stretched further down the ranks, as it does in any army, even today. "Lets do everything on a militarily unsound basis so we can get rid of some of our pesky over-population" is something I have only ever heard from you. Give me good reasons to believe you, over the weight of studied opinions of all the others who have written on this subject. Where is your best-selling work on the subject that has been accepted as an authoritative (not to mention revelatory) benchmark? I have been unable to find a copy. I presume this is because it has only been published in China, with the usual disagreement between the Chinese and the west meaning it has not been accepted by western historians?

TL/DR: Itchy, you're so full of shit sometimes Laughing
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 13:17 - 19 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
Why do you believe that? Based on what evidence?


I don't need to rely on imaginary tactics or technologies.

A lot of the things can be explained for example walking rather than running. Boggy ground and too much equipment.

However a number of things can't be explained other than the cull theory.

One of them was from years ago something I remember from somewhere.

British soldiers were ordered to hold their rifles against their chests. I'm not a military man, you're not a military man. But I know that the shooty bit goes towards the enemy. Soldiers 2000 years ago knew the pointy bits went towards the enemy.

It was 1917 and not the Napoleonic wars. Rifles were a well developed technology where they were fast long ranged and accurate.

The cull theory is ludicrous. On this and other topics you're fast becoming a silly conspiracy theorist. Bad things tend to happen because of screw-ups, not because The Rothschilds and their ilk are playing with humanity like Greek Gods.

The answer to your "rifles across the chest" comment lies in your own earlier paragraph. Large groups of men with heavy kit stumbling across rough ground with fingers on triggers = accidents.
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jjdugen
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PostPosted: 13:21 - 19 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy is more right than you give credit. It was a military 'solution' developed as far back as the American Civil War.
When you engage in mechanised war, the defender has the natural advantage. Machine guns, rapid fire rifles, zeroed artillery able to hit specific targets, the trenches gave pretty good protection. Until the tank came along the only way of promoting the war, other than allowing stalemate, was to attack.
It is well documented that the calculation was made that German manpower would be drained before the Allies stock of young men, the Americans finally joining in making that calculation inevitable.
As a specific. the German attack on Verdun was specifically designed to draw as many French soldiers into a killing field as possible, the term, bleed them dry was applied. But, as was usual, attackers and defenders lost about the same numbers. Why keep repeating this idiocy? It was the least worst solution.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:44 - 19 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

jjdugen wrote:
Itchy is more right than you give credit.


You say this, then you fail to back Itchy's point.
Yes, we all know that WW1 turned into a war of attrition. But not for the reasons Itchy thinks. The point was still to win the war. If we are to believe Itchy, we would have to accept that winning the war wasn't of primary concern.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:22 - 19 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
British soldiers were ordered to hold their rifles against their chests.

And in some cases to unload them. Because if they can shoot, they will shoot, and go to ground, instead of advancing and giving Jerry Fritz Hun a taste of cold steel. They don't like it up 'em. Also, hand grenades.


Itchy wrote:
Rifles were a well developed technology where they were fast long ranged and accurate.

Sure, and if 10,000 attacking soldiers along a two mile front all stopped to shoot at defenders in a trench, they might - might - have hit one of them. If they all shot five times.

You get that advances were ordered because the casualty rate from shooting at people in trenches with small arms was close to zero, right?

What alternative strategy would you suggest that would have been more effective against entrenched enemies, but which we avoided using?

Shelling by artillery, mortars, rifle grenades? We tried that, lots. Artillery doesn't take ground.

Chemical weapons. Used by all sides. You still have to advance to take the trench.

Some form of protected mobile land-battleship? Oh, right.


Are ported rifles the sum total of your evidence for there being a strategy of getting as many men killed and wounded as possible?

Where's your evidence that the order to do that came from (((Them)))?
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Last edited by Rogerborg on 15:19 - 19 Dec 2017; edited 1 time in total
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 14:31 - 19 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Shelling by artillery,



Shelling by artillery and actually aiming it? Even using trial and error to adjust your aim a bit.

If 2000 years ago Romans could use trial and error with their siege engines where maths was not widely understood why was this impossible 100 years ago? So 5 days of barrage and they fail to hit anything?


That's as believable as the USAF the most powerful, technologically advanced fighting force saying they can't find and hit 10 mile long convoys of Toyota Hiluxes in an area without dense jungle and foliage. When 20 years prior the USN managed to destroy the Iraqis in similar circumstances.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:56 - 19 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
British soldiers were ordered to hold their rifles against their chests.



chickenstrip wrote:
Rifles were a well developed technology where they were fast long ranged and accurate.


Oi! No, he didn't!
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 14:58 - 19 Dec 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
Shelling by artillery,



Shelling by artillery and actually aiming it? Even using trial and error to adjust your aim a bit.

If 2000 years ago Romans could use trial and error with their siege engines where maths was not widely understood why was this impossible 100 years ago? So 5 days of barrage and they fail to hit anything?


That's as believable as the USAF the most powerful, technologically advanced fighting force saying they can't find and hit 10 mile long convoys of Toyota Hiluxes in an area without dense jungle and foliage. When 20 years prior the USN managed to destroy the Iraqis in similar circumstances.


Just the very first article I found. I'm sure I could find many similar:

https://www.longlongtrail.co.uk/how-the-british-artillery-developed-and-became-a-war-winning-factor-in-1914-1918/
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