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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 17:22 - 06 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
There are also many MPs who are still saying they can negotiate a fantastic deal and not have freedom of movement.
Corbyn made this out as Labour position yesterday.

If it were impossible then why are they pursing it?


Because either they haven't understood when the EU said free movement was sacrosanct, or they want to ensure the government fails and falls. Corbyn cares more about power than the country's future, provided he can blame the Tories.
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 17:22 - 06 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:


A Set out what you want.
B Issue BoE bonds to fund it.
C Build it / Hire staff.

The UK government aren't even at stage A yet. B has already been done too. C not enough UK capacity? Hyundai/Norinco/Kawasaki and Hitachi could be drafted in to build it using money raised by B.


All the money in the world wont buy time to negotiate a bespoke deal with the EU 27, so again, i ask, what is your immediate plan, for brexit in 300 days time?

For a start, we have to become a 3rd country to negotiate a future trade deal with the EU, that is what the transition is there for, we cannot discuss future trade, whilst inside of the EU, that is why we have to either be in the EEA, or outside it shadowing it with no changes to tariffs or regulations, money wont negotiate the different licences we need for our truck drivers to allowed to actually enter the EU, or our airplanes to fly in EU airspace without the correct insurances in place, Infrastructure is only half of it.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 17:50 - 06 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
The issue is the longer there are delays to changes and actual action the larger the chance you get put over a barrel and have to accept the other side without any negotiating power.

What part of "Theresa May will completely capitulate and offer whatever it takes to continue with business as usual at the 11th hour, thereby achieving the result that all the decision makers involved want." is causing confusion?

Based on her actions - none, as we both agree - what other possible outcome could she be aiming for?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 18:36 - 06 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Fzs wrote:
All the money in the world wont buy time to negotiate a bespoke deal with the EU 27


Where did I say anything about a deal?

Rob Fzs wrote:
Infrastructure is only half of it.


Which is the entire point better to have half of it than NONE of it.

Deal or no deal you've got the infrastructure in order to keep essentials like food entering the country by satisfying WTO inspections.

Ok so the EU will treat you as a 3rd country and because of the MFN clause you plonk 25% on food stuffs and you have to inspect it. But here's the kicker, food is STILL coming in albeit more expensive. Add a few bonded warehouses so foreign truckers don't even need to enter the UK and get UK truckers to distribute it and the starvation scenario is considerably less likely.

Thus you plan for the worst and hope for the best.

Yet currently...

Plan for the best hope for the best.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 18:59 - 06 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
is causing confusion?


It's because why accept a surrender or a capitulation when you can allow a collapse and then dictate terms not negotiate dictate as I said before you rely on the benevolence of the EU.

Consider this situation:

31st March 2019 May or whoever is Prime Minister ~ Can we do a takesie backsie on the terms before?

Scenario A: Ok sure, at which the EU gets to take the UK back into the fold and will have to give a reach around in order to placate the UK a bit.

Scenario B: Nope. The EU twiddles it's thumbs a bit. Panic buying starts. Dindoos and stabby chavs start riotiing a couple weeks in mass food riots occur (again how defensible is your home?). About 30 days later whoever in power has to literally walk to Brussels to get a deal since flights are grounded as is road and rail transport. EU offers a much worse deal which with the troubles at home they can't refuse. 350m a week? No we want 900 million a week. No rebate, Schengen, federalisation NOW.

Give it 6 weeks and cannibalism will set in and you'll be offered the worst deal possible say 1.5bn to the EU weekly.


Like I said the end of Lawrence of Arabia. This is precisely what British army did to the Arabs in order to get an iron grip on the region.

This is exactly what the British Empire did with the Qing Emperor in the 1800s.


Rogerborg wrote:
Based on her actions - none, as we both agree - what other possible outcome could she be aiming for?


She's a politician. She cares about what's good for her. Therefore she is waiting on a corporate job to come up and to suddenly resign wanting to spend more time with her family. Plus she became an MP in 1997. If she makes it to March 2019 she will have served (snigger) 22 years and will have a substantial MPs pension they only need to do two terms to get it. She'll have 4.3 terms and will walk away with a £47,000-£67,000 pension.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 19:50 - 06 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Fzs wrote:
Itchy wrote:


A Set out what you want.
B Issue BoE bonds to fund it.
C Build it / Hire staff.

The UK government aren't even at stage A yet. B has already been done too. C not enough UK capacity? Hyundai/Norinco/Kawasaki and Hitachi could be drafted in to build it using money raised by B.


All the money in the world wont buy time to negotiate a bespoke deal with the EU 27, so again, i ask, what is your immediate plan, for brexit in 300 days time?

For a start, we have to become a 3rd country to negotiate a future trade deal with the EU, that is what the transition is there for, we cannot discuss future trade, whilst inside of the EU, that is why we have to either be in the EEA, or outside it shadowing it with no changes to tariffs or regulations, money wont negotiate the different licences we need for our truck drivers to allowed to actually enter the EU, or our airplanes to fly in EU airspace without the correct insurances in place, Infrastructure is only half of it.


I don't care. I want to leave the EU. If that means banning EU flights and truck drivers from coming to Britain then so be it.

Brexit is non-negotiable.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 20:00 - 06 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:


Because either they haven't understood when the EU said free movement was sacrosanct, or they want to ensure the government fails and falls. Corbyn cares more about power than the country's future, provided he can blame the Tories.



That charge can be levelled at both parties at the moment.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 20:15 - 06 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Cross rail took 58 years to plan and implement the act of Parliament allowing it to go ahead. It then took about 6 years to build.

Heathrow's 3rd runway has been under discussion for about 40 years and today has finally been approved. It is estimated to be operational by 2026

What does the above tell us?

That we don't like paying for infrastructure until we need it?
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 20:18 - 06 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:
That we don't like paying for infrastructure until we well after we need it and end up paying more for it than had we planned properly



FTFY.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 21:45 - 06 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
M.C wrote:
That we don't like paying for infrastructure until we well after we need it and end up paying more for it than had we planned properly



FTFY.

I'm not disagreeing Laughing but isn't that true of anything? No one listens until the problem materialises or more likely when it affects them.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 21:51 - 06 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't forget... June 23rd is independence day Dance! Praying Dance! Praying
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:03 - 07 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
[Blockade]

What happens in France while this is going on?

What are French farmers going to be doing?

What are German car makers going to be doing?

The EU consists of 50,000 mouse nudgers in Brussels. Are they going to personally blockade the ports?

Again for luck: trade happens despite governments. It's a constant struggle for them to suppress it.

Does the EU have the ability to enforce a starvation blockade?
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 11:39 - 07 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Rob Fzs wrote:
All the money in the world wont buy time to negotiate a bespoke deal with the EU 27


Where did I say anything about a deal?

Rob Fzs wrote:
Infrastructure is only half of it.


Which is the entire point better to have half of it than NONE of it.

Deal or no deal you've got the infrastructure in order to keep essentials like food entering the country by satisfying WTO inspections.

Ok so the EU will treat you as a 3rd country and because of the MFN clause you plonk 25% on food stuffs and you have to inspect it. But here's the kicker, food is STILL coming in albeit more expensive. Add a few bonded warehouses so foreign truckers don't even need to enter the UK and get UK truckers to distribute it and the starvation scenario is considerably less likely.

Thus you plan for the worst and hope for the best.

Yet currently...

Plan for the best hope for the best.


This really doesn't come anywhere near close to as good as my option.

you're just managing the WTO option.
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 11:43 - 07 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:


I don't care. I want to leave the EU. If that means banning EU flights and truck drivers from coming to Britain then so be it.

Brexit is non-negotiable.


The country dropped to it's knee's when Farmers for Action blockaded fuel refineries to have concessions made on diesel, everyone was panic buying and in a general bad mood, now extrapolate this across everything and that's the end of any decent brexit and the likes of the remainer government in power going begging to the EU for a Vassal associate state membership to get things back to normal.
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 11:47 - 07 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Itchy wrote:
[Blockade]

What happens in France while this is going on?

What are French farmers going to be doing?

What are German car makers going to be doing?

The EU consists of 50,000 mouse nudgers in Brussels. Are they going to personally blockade the ports?

Again for luck: trade happens despite governments. It's a constant struggle for them to suppress it.

Does the EU have the ability to enforce a starvation blockade?

French farmers cant fucking wait to blockade Calais, just like they did when BSE was on.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/french-in-lorry-blockade-1312085.html
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:11 - 07 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Fzs wrote:
French farmers cant fucking wait to blockade Calais, just like they did when BSE was on.

Junkers and Itchy are already blockading Calais in this scenario revealed in Project Fear's palantir.

All of the French farmers who export to us, and have suddenly had their livelihoods removed, will be doing what, and where?

I'd invite you to consider that it won't be "the EU" doing the blockade. Frontex doesn't (quite) run the borders yet, although Merkel is pushing for it.

It'll be Jeanny Froglander, under orders from the French government. Yes, Macron is a globalist EUrophile, but he's also a Frenchman of sorts. He'll capitulate quickly enough when the rotten food is dumped on Parisian streets quicker than even the New Parisians can eat and excrete it.
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 12:17 - 07 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Rob Fzs wrote:
French farmers cant fucking wait to blockade Calais, just like they did when BSE was on.

Junkers and Itchy are already blockading Calais in this scenario revealed in Project Fear's palantir.

All of the French farmers who export to us, and have suddenly had their livelihoods removed, will be doing what, and where?

I'd invite you to consider that it won't be "the EU" doing the blockade. Frontex doesn't (quite) run the borders yet, although Merkel is pushing for it.

It'll be Jeanny Froglander, under orders from the French government. Yes, Macron is a globalist EUrophile, but he's also a Frenchman of sorts. He'll capitulate quickly enough when the rotten food is dumped on Parisian streets quicker than even the New Parisians can eat and excrete it.


But the French farmers will still be exporting to us, they're stopping anything from the UK going there....

Just like free traders like Mogg wont impose tariffs on EU goods coming here, because that undermines the idea of their free trade mantra.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 13:25 - 07 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Fzs wrote:
But the French farmers will still be exporting to us, they're stopping anything from the UK going there....

I'm not sure that burning piles of tractor tyres are particularly selective.
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Im-a-Ridah
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PostPosted: 13:43 - 07 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Fzs wrote:

But the French farmers will still be exporting to us, they're stopping anything from the UK going there....

Just like free traders like Mogg wont impose tariffs on EU goods coming here, because that undermines the idea of their free trade mantra.


A nice example of how desperate the average remoaner has become that nonsense scenarios like that are proposed. People aren't going to change their minds, and such ludicrous scenarios only show how the Brexit choice was the choice of the sensible, well informed, and intelligent voter. One way trade, funny guy. It's the same lies as brought to you by Tony Bliar and Nick "£9000" Clegg. Even Alex Jones's stuff has more credibility than this Laughing

But really, stop crying, man up.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 15:09 - 07 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Fzs wrote:
This really doesn't come anywhere near close to as good as my option.

you're just managing the WTO option.


How so? Your option is entirely beholden and depends entirely on getting into the EEA. Don't get it you go mad max. You will have to build those port facilities anyway as transition doesn't last forever.

My option? If you get EEA then you still have some nice shiny port facilities. If you don't you have facilities to keep food entering the country. AND you've already built stuff you're going to have to build anyway.
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Last edited by Itchy on 15:16 - 07 Jun 2018; edited 1 time in total
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 15:13 - 07 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
.All of the French farmers who export to us, and have suddenly had their livelihoods removed, will be doing what, and where?



French farmers and ALL the other industries in the EU have 26 other nations they can sell to + all the nations the EU has agreements with.

UK has 0 nations they can sell to both by not being party to any agreements and not having the facilities to move stuff out of the country.
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 15:25 - 07 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Rob Fzs wrote:
This really doesn't come anywhere near close to as good as my option.

you're just managing the WTO option.


How so? Your option is entirely beholden and depends entirely on getting into the EEA. Don't get it you go mad max. You will have to build those port facilities anyway as transition doesn't last forever.

My option? If you get EEA then you still have some nice shiny port facilities. If you don't you have facilities to keep food entering the country. AND you've already built stuff you're going to have to build anyway.


Who's denying we have to build infrastructure, surely the whole part of becoming an independent country is to have it's own checks and trade deals, eea interim migrates alot of the crap until this infrastructure is in place and we can leave properly.
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Rob Fzs
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PostPosted: 15:27 - 07 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im-a-Ridah wrote:
Rob Fzs wrote:

But the French farmers will still be exporting to us, they're stopping anything from the UK going there....

Just like free traders like Mogg wont impose tariffs on EU goods coming here, because that undermines the idea of their free trade mantra.


A nice example of how desperate the average remoaner has become that nonsense scenarios like that are proposed. People aren't going to change their minds, and such ludicrous scenarios only show how the Brexit choice was the choice of the sensible, well informed, and intelligent voter. One way trade, funny guy. It's the same lies as brought to you by Tony Bliar and Nick "£9000" Clegg. Even Alex Jones's stuff has more credibility than this Laughing

But really, stop crying, man up.


This denial is why the brexiteers are getting walked all over by the remainers in parliament and the longer it goes, the softer the brexit becomes because you are allergic to detail.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 15:29 - 07 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Fzs wrote:
Who's denying we have to build infrastructure, surely the whole part of becoming an independent country is to have it's own checks and trade deals, eea interim migrates alot of the crap until this infrastructure is in place and we can leave properly.


So why is my idea a bad one?

So you either build it now or you build it in 2021.

Either way you build it so why not build it now thus eliminating the risk if not getting EEA?

Your solution of wait and see then use the EEA period to build relies on the EEA period being agreed. This assumes that it will both be agreed and sufficient time will be given to build it.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 15:34 - 07 Jun 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rob Fzs wrote:


This denial is why the brexiteers are getting walked all over by the remainers in parliament and the longer it goes, the softer the brexit becomes because you are allergic to detail.


Who is doing the denial though?

A lot of brexiteers are still thinking about magical solutions and had waiving any problems that are raised.

Oh yes super hard brexit no trucks no flights. So what are you going to do about the 40-45% food deficit? Almost always responded by a handwave or some other magical solution like US food (which has a 3 week lead time just to load the ships).

You're going to eat sovereignty right?

People tend to change their minds when the have empty stomachs.
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