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Val
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PostPosted: 16:19 - 07 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

jnw010 wrote:
Jimbo is positing a view, Val you're stating opinion as fact.
It's annoying.


Ermmm...no.

It is a fact that there is no mythical European project - it's European Union between 28 equal independent countries. Read the EU treaties.

It is a fact that Bulgarians abroad are not imaginary drain to Bulgaria because they inject back more money per year then all FDIs!

Quote:
Sofia, Bulgaria -

For 2017, the Bulgarians working abroad sent more than €1.1 billion back to Bulgaria, more money into Bulgaria than foreign investors invested in the same year. All the data is quoted from the Bulgarian National Bank.

The total amount is probably larger, as only the money sent through banks or money transfer services are included in the estimates, meaning that cars, valuables, antiques, jewelllery items, services, and money brought back in cash aren’t counted.


Majority of FoM bulgarian workers abroad are temporary and get back to Bulgaria.

Also as I have said FoM is related to free movement not only for work, but for study and just travel. Means people educated abroad and more open society.

Those are facts. Not opinions.

All these FoM facts together are positive for Bulgaria not negative as Jimbo opinion was suggesting.

Happy to look at any facts that say the opposite.
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Val
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PostPosted: 16:36 - 07 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

FTFY guys
jnw010 wrote:
Itchy wrote:
Majority of Brexit voters are stupid and/or old ignorant twats


There may be few geniuses who voted Leave I mean like Noble price holders, but they haven't revealed themselfs yet.

Having said that the ignorants twats has done more then enough to reveal themself.

Again facts. Not opinion. Why Brexit is not a success if quitlings are geniuses then eh?

Note blaming remain that imaginary brilliant Brexit fails is hilarious.

Own it. The whole Brexshit pooped in 2016.

https://i.imgur.com/gxD89SB.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/qzSrabL.png
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Johnnythefox
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PostPosted: 21:48 - 07 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Any particular reason Switzerland is not a member of the EU Mr Villiger?
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Val
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PostPosted: 22:50 - 07 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Meanwhile project fear uses the smallest violin ever...again Laughing

https://i.imgur.com/nq9n2bS.jpg
Quote:

William Hague warns Emmanuel Macron not to stand in way of Brexit deal


https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-latest-macron-france-uk-william-hague-theresa-may-fort-de-bregancon-common-market-a8480421.html
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 01:10 - 08 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Ste wrote:
He asked: 'What will happen to the quarter of Dutch poultry farmers who sell their goods to the UK? Or the one-fifth of Spanish tomatoes that comes to the UK? What will happen to those producers if the EU insists on putting up all these barriers?


This is just another variation on the German cars argument.

They have 550million other consumers to sell to, plus 132 million more with the JPN trade deal.

But business doesn't just walk away from an existing market and a network they've built up. The idea they'll just divert cars or whatever to a brand new, previously non-existent market doesn't stack up. They'll push for trade and they'll innovate in ways government can't.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 01:18 - 08 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Val wrote:
It is a fact that there is no mythical European project - it's European Union between 28 equal independent countries. Read the EU treaties.

Of course it's a project.

Val wrote:
Sofia, Bulgaria -

Quote:
For 2017, the Bulgarians working abroad sent more than €1.1 billion back to Bulgaria, more money into Bulgaria than foreign investors invested in the same year. All the data is quoted from the Bulgarian National Bank.

The total amount is probably larger, as only the money sent through banks or money transfer services are included in the estimates, meaning that cars, valuables, antiques, jewelllery items, services, and money brought back in cash aren’t counted.

Those are facts. Not opinions.

Without a source it's just something you made up. Wink

Val wrote:
Happy to look at any facts that say the opposite.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 01:33 - 08 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Val wrote:
Wards with older populations had higher Leave vote.

With age comes wisdom. Very Happy

The second plot is odd and just says few local government wards have greater than 40% graduates, or that the ordinary working man and woman aren't seeing the benefits of EU membership.

I'm not sure why you have to keep being so rude about this. You and Itchy claim not to have a stake in the matter yet you're the most worked up about it.
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Val
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PostPosted: 01:34 - 08 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:


Val wrote:
Sofia, Bulgaria -

Quote:
For 2017, the Bulgarians working abroad sent more than €1.1 billion back to Bulgaria, more money into Bulgaria than foreign investors invested in the same year. All the data is quoted from the Bulgarian National Bank.

The total amount is probably larger, as only the money sent through banks or money transfer services are included in the estimates, meaning that cars, valuables, antiques, jewelllery items, services, and money brought back in cash aren’t counted.

Those are facts. Not opinions.

Without a source it's just something you made up. Wink



You need to learn how to use Google search:

https://bfy.tw/JJIs
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Val
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PostPosted: 01:36 - 08 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Brexit - the gift that continues to give jobs...to France:
Quote:

HSBC to move seven offices from London to Paris amid Brexit uncertainty


https://www.france24.com/en/20180807-hsbc-move-seven-offices-london-paris-brexit-european-passports-city-london-eu?ref=tw_i
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 01:55 - 08 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Val wrote:
Brexit - the gift that continues to give jobs...to France:
Quote:

HSBC to move seven offices from London to Paris amid Brexit uncertainty


https://www.france24.com/en/20180807-hsbc-move-seven-offices-london-paris-brexit-european-passports-city-london-eu?ref=tw_i

Hey, if you can't back up your "facts" with facts I'm not likely to believe it, or do it for you.

However, Google can only find a single reference to your HSBC story, which makes me doubt the truth of France24.com

Also you've done it again, you've read the headline without reading the article.
Quote:
Without explicitly mentioning Brexit, HSBC’s statement says that it is “adjusting its activities” in light of “political and regulatory developments in Europe”.
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 08:10 - 08 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
But business doesn't just walk away from an existing market and a network they've built up. The idea they'll just divert cars or whatever to a brand new, previously non-existent market doesn't stack up. They'll push for trade and they'll innovate in ways government can't.


Sure, but it's not a case of I'll do A all the way till March 29th 2019 then change over on March 30th 2019. There is a period whereby there the UK is bound by WTO rules until something else is hammered out this takes time. Note that WTO schedules are currently stalled as NZ, Auz, Canada and the US want them altered.

These rules most importantly of most favoured nation bind the UK meaning tariffs apply to ALL WTO members so you can't have a tariff or non checking agreement with the EU and a different one with other WTO members.

So obeying WTO will increase cost of stuff.

Not obeying WTO rules will increase the cost of stuff too.

Remember 17 million have less than £100 to spare and £2 increase will drive them into the red.

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
With age comes wisdom. Very Happy


Does it?

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-voters/in-englands-forgotten-rust-belt-voters-show-little-sign-of-brexit-regret-idUSKBN1KS0VM

In a nutshell:

The UK government has never invested in the area for decades.

The EU have invested in the area but not enough.

The UK government will suddenly care a whole lot if we vote a certain way.

That's likely right?

Or we were fine WW2 and we'll be fine now.

Uh yeah in WW2 and after for a while the UK had the Empire to fall back on. If the UK were so powerful then why did they hand HK back?

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
You and Itchy claim not to have a stake in the matter yet you're the most worked up about it.


There are people who are attached to me who aren't me.

The other aspect is many UK people aren't introspective enough and will seek to blame others. We see it in this thread. This often has poor outcomes for those who are blamed.
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arry
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PostPosted: 08:17 - 08 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Val wrote:
Brexit - the gift that continues to give jobs...to France:
Quote:

HSBC to move seven offices from London to Paris amid Brexit uncertainty


https://www.france24.com/en/20180807-hsbc-move-seven-offices-london-paris-brexit-european-passports-city-london-eu?ref=tw_i


As a contra to that, I know of at least 4 overseas insurers who are setting up UK branches because they wouldn't be able to 'passport' in after March.
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skatefreak
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PostPosted: 12:25 - 08 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

So young, impressionable people exposed to blatant left bias through universities, with little world experience and outright assumed intellectual superiority are voting remain... and this proves remain is in the nations best interests how exactly?

Lets not even progress to obvious conclusion that 'old people are just outright racists!?' rendering their several decades of experience and contributions that build our communities invalid compared to those of the younguns (who clearly know it all already) who have comparatively very little world experience but are assumed to be correct (educated the Right way!)? I mean we're fast approaching full retard/Trogan horse schooling here...

Back to the initial assumptions though, its unreasonable to state any degree from any university is a reliable indicator of intellect. If all degrees were intellectual then yeah, maybe we could draw that assumption but the bar has been set so damn low in some degree courses and institutions that they could be considered intellectually pedestrian to all but the most challenged individuals, so yes, they are 'educated' but we can't say they are intellectually superior unless we dismiss all the fluffy degrees...

Further to that, I don't remember hearing international trade agreements being a core module in arts, sports science or any degrees for that matter so I'd question the proposition that merely holding a degree translate to further comprehension on the complexities of brexit? but again, why be rational about this, there's a narrative to push!

To be fair, I would prattle on about my anecdotal experiences and observations that Labours spectacular push to send every knuckle dragger to university has predictably pushed down standards, further compounded by monetising education making uni's for-profit cash cows ramming as many 'customers' of any intellectual ability through their doors to hand out those £30,000 pieces of paper.
That student union's are usually run by sports science and other such weekend subject students not because they have so much studying to do and so little time to socialise.

But I'll spare you and go straight for a conclusion suggesting that the argument presented is based upon false premise and overstated conjecture, the conclusions are spurious and malicious to say the least and if anything, the further left bias Uni students are subjected to and that they vote in that direction should at least be considered if we want an objective view but of course we don't want to be objective.

Now I could post links galore to demonstrate my own confirmation bias here but figure considering the level of popular anti brexit 'evidence' bouncing around here I'd at least leave something about as reliable, accurate, comprehensive but far more entertaining Thumbs Up

https://www.bikechatforums.com/files/chart__10_.jpeg
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 13:04 - 08 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:


Val wrote:
Sofia, Bulgaria -

Quote:
For 2017, the Bulgarians working abroad sent more than €1.1 billion back to Bulgaria, more money into Bulgaria than foreign investors invested in the same year. All the data is quoted from the Bulgarian National Bank.

The total amount is probably larger, as only the money sent through banks or money transfer services are included in the estimates, meaning that cars, valuables, antiques, jewelllery items, services, and money brought back in cash aren’t counted.

Those are facts. Not opinions.


Ah, there you have it. Val is upset because it's one less country his own backward, ex-Stalinist state can fleece instead of producing an economy of their own Laughing
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 13:07 - 08 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

skatefreak wrote:
So young, impressionable people exposed to blatant left bias through universities, with little world experience and outright assumed intellectual superiority are voting remain...


So you did exactly the same thing but the other way...Funny that.

The key point is this. One group has to live and deal with the consequences in the short, medium and long term. One group only has to deal with the short term consequences.

skatefreak wrote:
and this proves remain is in the nations best interests how exactly?


And leaving with no preparation with nothing organised is in the interest of the nation how exactly?

Go have a read of it yourself:

https://www.arc2020.eu/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/article-50.png

Para 3

Where in that does it say there is room for the UK to negotiate a deal? Where does it say the UK can stay in the EASA? Where does it say the UK can negotiate to stay in the CU or the SM?

None whatsoever.

So what's the state of play?

Arrow UK is heading for hard brexit see above.
Arrow There is no transition deal.
Arrow The UK is currently tangled with the WTO schedules. New Zealand, Australia, Canada and US have objected to the schedules so far.
Arrow No preparations have been made.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 14:53 - 08 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

@skatefreak I think the point about university educated folk voting primarily for remain is that they're university educated. Not that they're young or left-wing indoctrinated.

Also there is an intellectual bar for almost every university course. A-levels, for a start. A lot of people are too dumb even for those.

Before you accuse me of bias, keep in mind I voted to leave too. I'm just not a fan of the "students r bad" argument, because it's frankly as stupid as the "gammon eggs and brexit" accusation from those who want to blame everything on old whiteys.

And, given the extremes, I'd much rather live among an entirely university educated populace than an entire "education is overrated you just need a good work ethic" populace (which by the way is the classic thing people do to make themselves feel better about being not having a higher education - claiming 'good work ethic' or 'common sense' is their special thing which anyone with a degree certificate knows nothing about, as if being a clueless workshy student bum is a life choice taken to the grave - another nonsense assumption made by people who just love to invent an enemy via stereotypes and collectivist politics).
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Val
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PostPosted: 15:07 - 08 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

skatefreak wrote:
tldr; young people in universities are stupid because voted remain


Which proves elegantly my point the OAP quitlings/Trump voters are geniuses Laughing
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bhinso
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PostPosted: 16:38 - 08 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think in any deal, the EU is going to tear us a new one.
It has too, otherwise other countries might start thinking of following suit, and the EU wants to exist.

The way the government is handling it is appalling. I can't even remember the name of the Brexit secretary now, and i'd never heard of it. If we voted leave, and Cameron quit because he's a Remainer, surely we should have got a PM who supported leave, which Sharia didn't
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 16:52 - 08 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

bhinso wrote:
Brexit secretary now



Guy called Dominic Raab. He's the guy who talked about food stockpiling. I mentioned this above where he is on camera and he talks about food stockpiling.

bhinso wrote:
If we voted leave, and Cameron quit because he's a Remainer,



He was smart and wanted to put down the poisoned chalice.
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Last edited by Itchy on 17:35 - 08 Aug 2018; edited 1 time in total
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 17:01 - 08 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

bhinso wrote:
I think in any deal, the EU is going to tear us a new one.
It has too, otherwise other countries might start thinking of following suit, and the EU wants to exist.


Which says what about the EU? Are they so afraid that the EU is such a bad thing to be a part of that this will happen? Paranoid, or realistic?
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 18:12 - 08 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Itchy wrote:
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
With age comes wisdom. Very Happy

Does it?

https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-voters/in-englands-forgotten-rust-belt-voters-show-little-sign-of-brexit-regret-idUSKBN1KS0VM

In a nutshell:

The UK government has never invested in the area for decades.

The EU have invested in the area but not enough.

So do you think they must have voted Leave because they're all just a bunch of half-wits bent on self-destruction? That's an irrational assumption. Isn't it more likely to be an understandable rejection of globalisation by a community hit hard by its effects?

Itchy wrote:
The UK government will suddenly care a whole lot if we vote a certain way.

That's likely right?

I'd say it has caused them concern, yes!
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Itchy
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PostPosted: 18:45 - 08 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll answer this in reverse.

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
Isn't it more likely to be an understandable rejection of globalisation by a community hit hard by its effects?


In a way yes.

What they wanted is a better life or some sort of tangible improvement. In the past nobody would know any better as such they put up with it. Very much like how people say things are great yet don't how it is done better elsewhere.

They saw adverts on the TV all the time where people have nice cars and live in a nice house. They looked out of their windows and saw the same crumbling concrete, rubbish littered graffiti covered estate that they had been living in for 30+ years. It started out ok but it became worse. So what could they do? Look for a better job but the factories/mines/docks are closing or closed. Then there's a barrier of college/university.

In the 50s and 60s being bad at school was no biggie. You could work your way up some them did, many of them did not. Politicians didn't care about them and yes sometimes it's their own fault, but sometimes it isn't either.

With FPTP their vote essentially means nothing.

So when they had the opportunity to stick it to the man they took it.

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:
So do you think they must have voted Leave because they're all just a bunch of half-wits bent on self-destruction? That's an irrational assumption.


So you might ask what's wrong with the rejection?

The rejection assumes that they have hit rock bottom and that it can't get any worse than it already is.

So it's yet again based on wishful thinking that they were sticking it to the man and or the EU contribs would be spent locally.

We had Hammond last week calling for MORE austerity and even more cuts.

But you and I both know that the poor in UK society are pretty well off on global standards and that the UK government hasn't reinvested in 30+ years why would they start now?

There are many many ways it can get worse. It's like HK or JPN, people think wow what they don't see is people at the bottom. HK and JPN people see this and get scared into working harder.

Yet not all that many ways it can get better.

Coal pits aren't going to open again COP21 committed the UK to cut 10GW of coal/gas out of the grid.

Factories? Factories might return but they'll be of the lights out variety.
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Val
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PostPosted: 08:24 - 09 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

bhinso wrote:
If we voted leave, and Cameron quit because he's a Remainer, surely we should have got a PM who supported leave, which Sharia didn't


+1 PM must have been Gove or Johnson they lied to people they should have picked up the Brexshit bill.
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Val
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PostPosted: 08:29 - 09 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

FTFY:

Kawasaki Jimbo wrote:

They have voted Leave because they're all just a bunch of half-wits bent on self-destruction plus understandable rejection of UK governemnet negleting a community hit hard by its effects. For example Germany was not hit hard because German government takes care for its citizens.

Itchy wrote:
The UK government will suddenly care a whole lot if we vote a certain way.

That's likely right?

Unicorns, yes!

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Kawasaki Jimbo
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PostPosted: 09:03 - 09 Aug 2018    Post subject: Reply with quote

Val wrote:
FTFY

Run out of arguments?

Quote:
So do you think they must have voted Leave because they're all just a bunch of half-wits bent on self-destruction?

As a I said, that's an irrational assumption. You appear to want to believe it.
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