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Ste
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 Posted: 09:20 - 25 Sep 2018  Post subject: |
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| mpd72 CPT wrote: | Labour really must have found a bit of spare cash after all. Maybe Diane's been doing the sums again? |
They've come up with a new way to raise revenue without calling it a tax.
"Every company with more than 250 staff would have to set up an “inclusive ownership fund”, or IOF, holding 10 per cent of its equity on behalf of workers. The stake would be built up gradually, with a company handing over 1 per cent of its equity a year over a decade.
Workers would not be able to buy or sell the shares held by the inclusive ownership fund, but would benefit from dividends — up to a maximum of £500 per person. The fund, run by a board of trustees made up of workers, would also have voting rights like other shareholders.
The model for Labour’s plans, inspired by the IPPR think-tank and the Co-operative party, would be an “asset-lock” mechanism as used by John Lewis and similar employee-owned enterprises.
One key aspect of the policy is that the government would collect any dividend payments above the £500-a-head threshold, and divert them to the state coffers. That would generate more than £2bn per annum after five years, Labour estimated."
https://www.ft.com/content/4cad1c50-bf59-11e8-8d55-54197280d3f7 |
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Diggs
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| Posted: 09:32 - 25 Sep 2018 Post subject: |
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Against my better judgement, but...
1. Nobody understood the implications of leaving when the referendum was held. Not even you.
2. There is nothing undemocratic about having another vote now that we have a better idea of what we are voting for. That is how democracy works.
3. You keep on using the term 'snowflake' as you think it places you on higher ground morally and intellectually. It does neither.
4. You use the term 'project fear' to justify keeping your head in the sand.
5. Giving the electorate the chance to decide our future now we are better informed isn't a party political issue. All parties bar UKIP think it is a good idea.
I could go on.
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Ste
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| Posted: 10:07 - 25 Sep 2018 Post subject: |
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| Ste wrote: | | mpd72 CPT wrote: | Labour really must have found a bit of spare cash after all. Maybe Diane's been doing the sums again? |
They've come up with a new way to raise revenue without calling it a tax.
"Every company with more than 250 staff would have to set up an “inclusive ownership fund”, or IOF, holding 10 per cent of its equity on behalf of workers. The stake would be built up gradually, with a company handing over 1 per cent of its equity a year over a decade.
Workers would not be able to buy or sell the shares held by the inclusive ownership fund, but would benefit from dividends — up to a maximum of £500 per person. The fund, run by a board of trustees made up of workers, would also have voting rights like other shareholders.
The model for Labour’s plans, inspired by the IPPR think-tank and the Co-operative party, would be an “asset-lock” mechanism as used by John Lewis and similar employee-owned enterprises.
One key aspect of the policy is that the government would collect any dividend payments above the £500-a-head threshold, and divert them to the state coffers. That would generate more than £2bn per annum after five years, Labour estimated."
https://www.ft.com/content/4cad1c50-bf59-11e8-8d55-54197280d3f7 |
That entire idea is fecking nuts. No company will come to the UK, when the state are going to steal 10% of it's equity.
This is modern far left Labour through and through. Lots of vote buying sound bites which sound good to the hard of thinking, but completely unworkable and disastrous in the real world.
Much like their other promises of a second referendum, with an option to stay in the EU, the buying back of water, Royal Mail and the railways, the paying off of student debt, etc....
The problem is, we're breeding a generation naive enough to fall for it all, who have been programmed as socialists all the way through their education and media exposure.
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Diggs
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| Posted: 10:20 - 25 Sep 2018 Post subject: |
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Ste, you make the point I have been getting at all along - no fecker knows... so to hold a referendum on something no fecker knew anything about was criminal, and to not hold another now we have a better idea is adding negligence to the crime.
As for the 11.59 deal, at what point during the next 6 months will we be told that all sides agree on something workable? Unless all sides are conducting negotiations 'under the table' and are going to present us with a done deal that suits everybody, this isn't going to happen.
No, it is either stop it all before it is too late, accept a deal that Europe wants (i.e. to our disadvantage) or no deal at all and into the abyss. This fallacy that we can negotiate a deal that somehow gives us our cake and cherry is ridiculous.
For those who prefer the 'abyss' option, tell me you won't be buying a few extra tins of Bigsoup in your March shop...
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Diggs
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| Posted: 10:46 - 25 Sep 2018 Post subject: |
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...and another thing, don't forget how this all came about. The only reason we had a referendum in the first place was because Cameron was scared he'd lose votes to UKIP.
It doesn't matter how many times people use terms like 'snowflake', 'project fear' and the like to belittle people with different views, the fact is that they are responsible for where we are now and where we will be in April.
I think many people voted to leave to stick a metaphorical middle finger up at 'the man'. Fair play, but the wrong arena. The same people are now relying on 'the man' to get us out of the shit... Sadly 'the man' can't because the people have spoken.
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Riejufixing
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Posted: 10:55 - 25 Sep 2018  Post subject: |
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| Diggs wrote: | Against my better judgement, but...
1. Nobody understood the implications of leaving when the referendum was held. Not even you.
2. There is nothing undemocratic about having another vote now that we have a better idea of what we are voting for. That is how democracy works.
3. You keep on using the term 'snowflake' as you think it places you on higher ground morally and intellectually. It does neither.
4. You use the term 'project fear' to justify keeping your head in the sand.
5. Giving the electorate the chance to decide our future now we are better informed isn't a party political issue. All parties bar UKIP think it is a good idea.
I could go on. |
1) We were told that there would be a perhaps extended period of instability, that there would be an economic shock, etc. etc. We were told very, very plainly indeed, and every household in the UK was directly informed. The information was all over the online, print and TV media. Do you remember that?
2) It is absolutely undemocratic to have another in/out referendum, having recently expressed our opinion, without what we voted for having been implemented, and in the face of all the promises repeatedly made that it would be implimented. These promises were all over the online, print and TV media.
3) The proper term is probably antidemocrats. Those who having expressed their opinion, and having been outvoted, try to overturn the result.
4) "Project fear" is very real. It is funded by rich antidemocratic people who have made large financial donations to overturn the result of the referendum (how hollow: "one man, one vote" rings now), and by people in the media, with their powerful influence, and by the antidemocratic minority who clamour to overturn the result that they do not like. The EU itself is also continually agitating to overturn the result.
5) See (4). We were perfectly well informed at the time. It is most certainly not true that "All parties bar UKIP think it is a good idea". The Conservatives have said that it is not a good idea, and Labour are split on the subject.
In the circumstances, we should leave the EU. Perhaps we could consider a democratic exercise to consider rejoining it in (say) the year 2058. |
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 13:02 - 25 Sep 2018 Post subject: |
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| Diggs wrote: | tell me you won't be buying a few extra tins of Bigsoup in your March shop... |
I like Big Soups 
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 13:28 - 25 Sep 2018 Post subject: |
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Tesco have started doing their own chunky soups now too, but only in a standard size tin. If they start to do them in the bigger size, I'll try them.
Asda is way over on the other side of town to me, so they're out alas.
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Posted: 14:08 - 25 Sep 2018  Post subject: |
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| Diggs wrote: | Against my better judgement, but...
1. Nobody understood the implications of leaving when the referendum was held. Not even you. |
And nobody knows the implications of staying in an ever increasingly federal state know as the EU. The future is like that.
| Diggs wrote: | 2. There is nothing undemocratic about having another vote now that we have a better idea of what we are voting for. That is how democracy works. |
Nonsense, democracy has spoken, ignoring it destroys the very heart of democracy. What next, snowflake demanding a new General Election if they don't get their way?
The question was simple - "Do you wish to remain part of the EU or leave the EU?". There was no, "Do you wish to kind of leave the EU, but still be tied to it for certain things, like immigration, sovereignty and law". All that's happening now is Remain have lost the vote, so are trying to derail or water down a proper Brexit, which no matter what remoaners keep saying, the vast majority who voted to leave, expect.
| Diggs wrote: | 3. You keep on using the term 'snowflake' as you think it places you on higher ground morally and intellectually. It does neither. |
Nope, I use the term because we now have an entire generation of emotionally weak, precious cherubs who kick off a tantrum if they don't get their own way. A generation which is the product of uncontrolled immigration and left wing infiltration of education and media.
| Diggs wrote: | 4. You use the term 'project fear' to justify keeping your head in the sand. |
Nope. I use that terms as that's what the constant anti Brexit propaganda nonsense has been labelled. It's getting so obvious now, it's almost embarrassing watching or listening to news on the mainly pro Brexit media
| Diggs wrote: | 5. Giving the electorate the chance to decide our future now we are better informed isn't a party political issue. All parties bar UKIP think it is a good idea. |
We are not better informed. The future is uncertain, that's how it works. The electorate were given a chance. Most took it, some snowflakes couldn't be arsed to vote and are now whining like drains because they're not getting their way.
You're basing your judgement of what life after Brexit will be, on the lies and misinformation of Project Fear. All of Project Fear's predictions so far have failed miserably. Before the referendum, we were told the effects would happen from day one, if we didn't vote how the establishment wanted.,
| Diggs wrote: | I could go on. |
You could. Most staunch remainers do the same as they're fed constant, daily shock news about the approaching Armageddon and are too programmed to see through it, as propganda.
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| Posted: 14:15 - 25 Sep 2018 Post subject: |
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| Diggs wrote: | S
For those who prefer the 'abyss' option, tell me you won't be buying a few extra tins of Bigsoup in your March shop... |
How do you think the other 260 countries in the world cope without being in the EU? You know, like the top 5 rest of the world economies, now of which the 28 squabbling countries of the EU has ever managed to agree free trade deals with?
The list of EU free trade deals has been posted many times here for comedy effect. The list is abysmal. We trade mainly outside of the EU, so being in the EU doesn't work for us. like it does for the rest who have a healthy trade surplus, selling us their goods, which we can't match on cheap labour and zero import tariffs.
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Ste
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| Posted: 14:24 - 25 Sep 2018 Post subject: |
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One of the things that pisses me off about all this is that mpd is right.  
In 2016, the deadline for registering to vote was extended by 48 hours because people weren't interested in registering until then. 436,347 people then registered in those 48 hours.
https://www.ft.com/content/e5495ca6-2d81-11e6-bf8d-26294ad519fc
"A decision by the government to extend the deadline for voters to register for a referendum on Britain’s membership of the EU has enraged Brexit campaigners, who accused officials of trying to “skew” the result.
Whitehall is to rush through emergency legislation on Thursday to extend the deadline for vote applications until midnight of that day, said Matt Hancock, the Cabinet Office minister.
The extension is necessary, according to the government, because the applications website crashed in the run-up to the original deadline on Tuesday night, after more than 214,000 people tried to apply between 9pm and 10pm.
It is not known how many of those people failed to complete the application process."
Give it up already.  |
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Sload
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| Posted: 15:53 - 25 Sep 2018 Post subject: |
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I'm with Diggs. I have nothing against a final ref being called once all cards are dealt, these are the options, have at it. It IS democratic and to argue against ignores that the last ref went against the original ref ad nausium and is invalid. The last was barely won, it is being negotiated by a very weak government, lots of voters died, lots new now eligible etc and so on blah blah boring.
I think the actual true argument against from many brexiteers is fear of it switching which reeks to me like they just wish to disenfranchise their opposition as much as I'm sure their opposition would like to do to them.
Plus we are due a spectacle.
And yes you are right Ste, it does undermine the negotiating position, it always has, that is probably the point and is probably why it wouldn't be granted.
What makes me curious now though honestly, if in MPDs nightmare a vote was recast, remain was chosen etc, what would or could be the reaction of the EU in that instance?
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chickenstrip
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Posted: 15:58 - 25 Sep 2018  Post subject: |
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| Sload wrote: |
I think the actual true argument against from many brexiteers is fear of it switching which reeks to me like they just wish to disenfranchise their opposition as much as I'm sure their opposition would like to do to them. |
I just can't help but think the less layers of politicians we have, the better. But it really doesn't matter. EU politicians mess things up for people, and UK politicians mess things up for people. What difference does it make? 
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Sload
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| Posted: 16:19 - 25 Sep 2018 Post subject: |
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| Riejufixing wrote: | | Sload wrote: | I'm with Diggs. I have nothing against a final ref being called once all cards are dealt, these are the options, have at it. It IS democratic and to argue against ignores that the last ref went against the original ref ad nausium and is invalid |
First I refer you to my post at 10:55 - 25 Sep 2018.
Next I shall observe that we have had only one referendum concerning the EU, and the result of that was that we voted to leave. We were never asked whether or not we wanted to join. |
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Aesthetics argument, nah I'm good as it's boring and autistic and repeated all over the internet and has no winner. As to your other points, meh we disagree. The primary difference being is I'm happy for you to have another vote whereas you appear as though you would be happy to prevent others from having it, when you cut all the excess away.
| chickenstrip wrote: | I just can't help but think the less layers of politicians we have, the better. But it really doesn't matter. EU politicians mess things up for people, and UK politicians mess things up for people. What difference does it make? |
Yes true. I guess the difference in this instance alone is allowing the people at least in principle the illusion of choice for whatever it actually matters. When people feel they have an investment in the outcome, even when it doesn't go their way it can help maintain social stability and cohesion and gives a smidgen of investment. I think the quote I'm gonna butcher goes along the lines of democracy is flawed but it's the best we have.
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| Posted: 17:03 - 25 Sep 2018 Post subject: |
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| Sload wrote: | I'm with Diggs. I have nothing against a final ref being called once all cards are dealt, these are the options, have at it. It IS democratic and to argue against ignores that the last ref went against the original ref ad nausium and is invalid. The last was barely won, it is being negotiated by a very weak government, lots of voters died, lots new now eligible etc and so on blah blah boring.
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Ah, so if your choice loses by a narrow margin, that doesn't stand and we should abolish democracy and have an option of how much the winning side is allowed to win. Cobblers.
It's like the Tories winning a GE, then Labour voters having a second election to decide how many MP's they get, who the MP's will be and what power they get.
You lost. Move on.
There was never a question about how Brexit we Brexit, it was leave or stay, not leave, but kind of stay or leave but not really leave, all available in round 2.
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| Posted: 17:05 - 25 Sep 2018 Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip wrote: | | Sload wrote: |
I think the actual true argument against from many brexiteers is fear of it switching which reeks to me like they just wish to disenfranchise their opposition as much as I'm sure their opposition would like to do to them. |
I just can't help but think the less layers of politicians we have, the better. But it really doesn't matter. EU politicians mess things up for people, and UK politicians mess things up for people. What difference does it make? |
We get a choice in electing UK ones, so they are at least in some way accountable to the UK population.
We're talking of an EU here, who's not once had their accounts signed off. Not once! That's not called being accountable, that's a dictatorship.
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 5 years, 208 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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