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Posted: 16:10 - 08 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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Sload wrote: |
As my evidence I posit the Brexit results ala nearly half the country HAS to be wrong, which side is wrong though.... |
I disagree. The whole population is right, Leave and Remain. It is about principles, hence the difficulty of finding a satisfactory resolution. ____________________ Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
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Posted: 17:07 - 08 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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Sload wrote: | M.C wrote: | I realise there are total mouthbreathers out there who will believe any bit of social media fake news regardless of the source, but I don't think the average man in the street is that stupid. |
I disagree, we are all pretty stupid
As my evidence I posit the Brexit results ala nearly half the country HAS to be wrong, which side is wrong though....
As to propaganda in general, I linked a video in the other thread that is an interesting watch specific to that topic, I won't derail it any further in here. |
Just to basically repeat what everyone else's saying there's no right or wrong answer. When we have elections it's all about who will help your life, sure we can pretend we're thinking of the greater good but when it comes down to it we're all biased.
I agree we're all stupid but even with that stupidity propaganda only works on the really stupid. With Brexit I don't think I've heard leavers treating remainers with the same contempt, that they were basically too stupid to understand the question, and that their mind was made up by a bus.
Again it was all about perspectives, whether if the UK being in the EU worked for you or not, it might even be negligible to you. |
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Posted: 17:45 - 08 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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Im-a-Ridah wrote: |
What Leave want is pretty concrete and deliverable. |
What Remain want is also concrete and deliverable. In fact, you could say that remaining in the EU is the easiest option. It means we can defer all our future decisions to someone else. ____________________ Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
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Posted: 00:42 - 09 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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M.C wrote: | The EU would either punish us for our mutinous behaviour or see our near break-up as a warning things have to change. I know which one my money would be on. |
If you read the link I posted earlier, you'll see that this is already the case. There is plenty there that says they have got more serious about what their future is since the UK's EU referendum.
Here is that link again:
https://www.europarl.europa.eu/RegData/etudes/BRIE/2018/623538/EPRS_BRI(2018)623538_EN.pdf
What it suggests to me is that they will indeed eventually become a single state. I don't see how they can achieve the goals they are beginning to set for themselves any other way.
Val, no one is going to take you seriously because you are not born here. It's that simple. It's not that people like yourself aren't welcome, just that your family doesn't have generations invested in this country. For many people, our history counts for something, and they and their families are a part of it. You are an outsider still. That is also why your invective is nothing more than an annoying little buzz in the ear. Frankly, no one gives a damn what you think, and less that you should have any say in the future of this country, having abandoned your own. ____________________ Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
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Posted: 01:11 - 09 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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Im-a-Ridah wrote: |
Remain and the so called ctrl+z option isn't deliverable though. If we assume that remain successfully revokes article 50 and chooses to remain in the EU, how viable is that going to be? We return to the European Parliament and everything continues happy every after? It's just delusional to think its going to work out like that. There is a lot of discussion about ways to undo the vote but none about what the realistic end point would be, it's just assumed that everything magically works out. |
I don't really mean like that, wasn't talking about the mechanics of either option. I meant the positions of being in or out.
Remain is working hard to undo the democratic vote. It was Remainers among the politicians and media that came up with this idea of hard or soft Brexits. For Leave, if we are going to adopt their terms, hard Brexit is the only option. I prefer to just think of it as leaving the EU. It should be complete - we leave all its institutions and systems. After that, we can see if there is anything we actually wish to work together on, in the same way that other independent nations work with each other when in their mutual interest, and yet still run their own affairs. ____________________ Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
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Polarbear Super Spammer
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Posted: 01:27 - 09 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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chickenstrip wrote: |
Val, no one is going to take you seriously because you are not born here. It's that simple. It's not that people like yourself aren't welcome, just that your family doesn't have generations invested in this country. For many people, our history counts for something, and they and their families are a part of it. You are an outsider still. That is also why your invective is nothing more than an annoying little buzz in the ear. Frankly, no one gives a damn what you think, and less that you should have any say in the future of this country, having abandoned your own. |
Well said Sir
To edit -
My grandfather fought in Gallipoli, survived and then in the second world war, because he was a tailor, sewed the flight skins on deHavilland mosquitoes.
My mothers grandfather and my great uncle died on the Murmansk convoys in WW2.
My mother was in the land army in WW2 which for some reason resulted in her love of cows!!
Hey, but Vals an immigrant, You racist PB ____________________ Triumph Trophy Launch Edition
Last edited by Polarbear on 02:56 - 09 Dec 2018; edited 1 time in total |
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Posted: 02:19 - 09 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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To add to what I said above about leaving the EU completely, Remainers shouldn't fool themselves into thinking that if by some method or other we end up staying this time around, that this will be the end of it. Leaving the EU isn't something that was dreamed up overnight. Those who truly want out will continue to agitate and campaign for their cause, as they did long before the referendum was even thought of. Remain aren't the only ones who won't take a decision that goes against them lying down. You only need look at the Scottish Independence movement to see this. ____________________ Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
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Posted: 14:22 - 09 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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TLDR : Read the red bits
I want a motorbike that can do 300mpg, but at the same time do 150mph cost nothing to run.
Great idea right. Go on make me a motorbike that will do this.
Southpark once did this skit:
https://pics.me.me/phase-1-phase-2-hase-3-collect-profit-underpants-southpark-19371648.png
They have a big ? Arguably the most important point is the ?
So what's the problem here?
The problem with Brexit is that it is an idea. Therefore it you're still at the ? Stage.Brexit has never progressed from the idea stage.
The story of Brexit is of a daily deluge of politicians, commentators, campaigners broadcasting ideas. Oh, the things the Government must, could, and should do.
Proposed with all the enthusiasm of people who have no intention of doing the work.
Ideas are cheap. There is nothing remarkable about having an idea at all.
The BCF attempted to have a gathering during 2018. It was a great idea. A fantastic idea even. Yet what happened? It failed on the practicalities
So what can we learn from this?
The shift from idea to practical and realistic implementation is where the flaws are revealed.
I mean check out these dudes. They had some great ideas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h_cqTCT5g0 They had high hopes and they had massive dreams and extreme belief in themselves. As you can see the actual practical and realistic implementation was the downfall.
In anything, but politics, this is part of the natural course.
Revealing flaws provides the opportunity to try to mitigate them or do something to fix them. Acknowledging their presence is where reality lies.
What's happening now ? Lots of phase 3 predictions of the glorious future without consideration to phase 2.
That none of the downsides are ever even considered and mentioned. Everything has positives and negatives.
Ideas are cosy, comforting things where a person can cling to being right.
Everybody but Theresa May has that luxury, and they are happily using it to trash her deal because it’s out there to be criticised. Meanwhile their own hypothetical deals are just ideas and so long as they stay that way without progression they can always, arguably, be good.
Much like politicians who don't get into power. Their ideas would always have worked out perfectly.
They can always be better than the deal put forward by May. Brexit, the decision to leave the EU, is itself neither a good or bad idea,
it’s a decision already taken.
Two and half years later, politicians are still stuck at making the case that the UK ought to leave the EU, despite the fact the vote has already taken place. How we leave the EU and how to reorganise ourselves as a country outside the EU is about practicalities, not giving speeches, not votes, not online arguments.
We should leave the EU ---> the UK thriving outside the EU
---> is the the incredibly important bit.
So? Ideas are easy.
We should have a better NHS is an idea.
We should make a motorbike that does 300mph but returns 150mpg is also an idea.
We could negotiate a range of free trade deals is also idea.
All of those things to make them work require actual ACTION and they won't fall into your lap.
The danger is of course in thinking that merely having an idea or a concept is where genius and brilliance lies. Coulda woulda shoulda a real outlier of personal genius, unavailable elsewhere.
I mean come on we have some Phd grads here. You had to do a Viva and defend your research. Would it be acceptable to shout at your professors PROJECT FEAR!!! OR SHUT UP I KNOW MORE THAN YOU!
The British look up to certain famous people not because they were thinkers but because they were DOERS Isambard Kingdom Brunel,Joseph Bazalgette did not spend his time making a case for sanitation. He didn't write columns and give speeches about how awesome it would be if the sanitation were built. Why we should build sanitation we should build sanitation let’s have a debate, because what really matters is that we all agree with him that it would be a fine thing to do.
Sure, and what of it?
Ideas are cheap.
Brexit, as a good or bad idea,goes nowhere without action. [/b]That is not how progress is made.
Not in science and not in politics.
BOJO, Davis and that bloke from IEA will continue banging on about what could and should be, followed by what could have been and should have been, whilst absenting themselves from the business of getting stuff done.
For in the magical realms of ideas there are only good ones.
https://pics.me.me/phase-1-phase-2-hase-3-collect-profit-underpants-southpark-19371648.png
Ok then lets revisit this:
You're at phase 1
You keep describing phase 3.
How brilliant it will be. All these incredible things that will happen.
Yet none of the downsides. So by all means go ahead look at the positives, but to neglect even consideration of any negatives isn't wise.
===================================================================
But Itchy you f****** c***. You disagree with the winning side! This is the cause of all our troubles. 'will of the people!!!!!!'.
Well I'm not the Prime Minister of the UK. Nor would I want to have a massive pay cut.
This referendum seems to have warped half the nation's grasp of how democracy actually works....
Opposition isn't the reason Brexit is bad, it is because opposition ALWAYS EXISTS.
There is no glorious unopposed brexit.
There is no alternative reality where 'remoaners' fall in line and start to believe in brexit not that this belief would change realities.(see above). I've still not had any takers for the AKM challenge.
Any sane person knew this at the time of the vote, and has known it every day since.
When the vote took place, both sides knew that they would face opposition afterwards, and that there was no way our relationship with the EU could go to an extreme in either direction.
If Corbyn won a general election tomorrow would you expect the conservatives to just hear the slogan 'will of the people', roll over and support mass nationalisation? Of course you wouldn't.
In fact if you follow this logic... then you MUST accept May's deal no matter how bad it is.
'will of the people' because SHE was elected into power. Therefore what she does you MUST stand by it. Unless you're an enemy of the people you can't pick and choose
'Therefore May's plan is the will of the people' you must support it else you are an enemy of the people.
Sans opposition would be horribly damaging to both our country and democracy for there to be no opposition. Arguably the power the government has in the UK is already damaging for the country and democracy.
There are people here today who voted for Conservative yet they are unhappy about it because it did not turn out how they imagined. Do people shout at them WILL of the people? We can read a few of the posts above and lo and behold somebody who voted Conservative.
The Conservative party won (sort of) and what's happening? They are complaining about it why are they allowed to complain? Nobody is allowed to complain about the result of the 2016 vote'will of the people!'
Without opposition we would constantly be rushing through ill-thought-out policy with damaging consequences. There would be no incentive for the government to even bother trying to craft decent legislation. Maybe it's an inherent flaw of our FPTP system that the government often CAN pass poorly considered legislation without forming any sort of consensus/ compromise courtesy of their total control of the commons.
Rather than seeking consensus and compromise on brexit, brexiters seem to feel entitled to have absolutely everything they want regardless of the consequences, and even if it means taking everything from those who lost.
They then have the sheer audacity to try and blame remainers for trying to defend their own interests (and the country's).
You can call China a dictatorship if you want and for all intents and purposes it is. The CCP spends an enormous amount of time and money ($16bn) polling the public in order to shape policies with as little opposition as possible because guess what? Even in a one party state there is opposition.
If we'd voted to remain and brexiters had stopped us going 'full EU' I wouldn't be blaming 'brexiters' for ruining my dream, I'd accept that the country just didn't want it, and that my original demands were entirely delusional. The current farce is what brexit looks like, because brexit has and always will have opponents.
tl;dr: You don't get to blame your opponents for your own unreasonable demands failing. Policy is only viable if you can pass it DESPITE opposition to it. If opposition makes it unworkable then it was never workable to begin with.
========================================
So what have you done Itchy? What makes you so big and important? Nothing really. All I can do is look out for me and my own interests and action my own plans.
I said my piece about 7 months ago.
Actually move to phase 2..
Greatness isn't simply having ideas. Greatness is doing all the work required to implement those ideas.
https://www.nexustek.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/be_prepared.png ____________________ Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching. |
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Im-a-Ridah World Chat Champion
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Posted: 14:37 - 09 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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Itchy wrote: | TLDR : Read the red bits
I want a motorbike that can do 300mpg, but at the same time do 150mph cost nothing to run.
Great idea right. Go on make me a motorbike that will do this.
Southpark once did this skit:
https://pics.me.me/phase-1-phase-2-hase-3-collect-profit-underpants-southpark-19371648.png
They have a big ? Arguably the most important point is the ?
So what's the problem here?
The problem with Brexit is that it is an idea. Therefore it you're still at the ? Stage. Brexit has never progressed from the idea stage.
The story of Brexit is of a daily deluge of politicians, commentators, campaigners broadcasting ideas. Oh, the things the Government must, could, and should do.
Proposed with all the enthusiasm of people who have no intention of doing the work.
Ideas are cheap. There is nothing remarkable about having an idea at all.
The BCF attempted to have a gathering during 2018. It was a great idea. A fantastic idea even. Yet what happened? It failed on the practicalities
So what can we learn from this?
The shift from idea to practical and realistic implementation is where the flaws are revealed.
I mean check out these dudes. They had some great ideas. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0h_cqTCT5g0 They had high hopes and they had massive dreams and extreme belief in themselves. As you can see the actual practical and realistic implementation was the downfall.
In anything, but politics, this is part of the natural course.
Revealing flaws provides the opportunity to try to mitigate them or do something to fix them. Acknowledging their presence is where reality lies.
What's happening now ? Lots of phase 3 predictions of the glorious future without consideration to phase 2.
That none of the downsides are ever even considered and mentioned. Everything has positives and negatives.
Ideas are cosy, comforting things where a person can cling to being right.
Everybody but Theresa May has that luxury, and they are happily using it to trash her deal because it’s out there to be criticised. Meanwhile their own hypothetical deals are just ideas and so long as they stay that way without progression they can always, arguably, be good.
Much like politicians who don't get into power. Their ideas would always have worked out perfectly.
They can always be better than the deal put forward by May. Brexit, the decision to leave the EU, is itself neither a good or bad idea,
it’s a decision already taken.
Two and half years later, politicians are still stuck at making the case that the UK ought to leave the EU, despite the fact the vote has already taken place. How we leave the EU and how to reorganise ourselves as a country outside the EU is about practicalities, not giving speeches, not votes, not online arguments.
We should leave the EU ---> the UK thriving outside the EU
---> is the the incredibly important bit.
So? Ideas are easy.
We should have a better NHS is an idea.
We should make a motorbike that does 300mph but returns 150mpg is also an idea.
We could negotiate a range of free trade deals is also idea.
All of those things to make them work require actual ACTION and they won't fall into your lap.
The danger is of course in thinking that merely having an idea or a concept is where genius and brilliance lies. Coulda woulda shoulda a real outlier of personal genius, unavailable elsewhere.
I mean come on we have some Phd grads here. You had to do a Viva and defend your research. Would it be acceptable to shout at your professors PROJECT FEAR!!! OR SHUT UP I KNOW MORE THAN YOU!
The British look up to certain famous people not because they were thinkers but because they were DOERS Isambard Kingdom Brunel,Joseph Bazalgette did not spend his time making a case for sanitation. He didn't write columns and give speeches about how awesome it would be if the sanitation were built. Why we should build sanitation we should build sanitation let’s have a debate, because what really matters is that we all agree with him that it would be a fine thing to do.
Sure, and what of it?
Ideas are cheap.
Brexit, as a good or bad idea,goes nowhere without action. [/b]That is not how progress is made.
Not in science and not in politics.
BOJO, Davis and that bloke from IEA will continue banging on about what could and should be, followed by what could have been and should have been, whilst absenting themselves from the business of getting stuff done.
For in the magical realms of ideas there are only good ones.
https://pics.me.me/phase-1-phase-2-hase-3-collect-profit-underpants-southpark-19371648.png
Ok then lets revisit this:
You're at phase 1
You keep describing phase 3.
How brilliant it will be. All these incredible things that will happen.
Yet none of the downsides. So by all means go ahead look at the positives, but to neglect even consideration of any negatives isn't wise.
===================================================================
But Itchy you f****** c***. You disagree with the winning side! This is the cause of all our troubles. 'will of the people!!!!!!'.
Well I'm not the Prime Minister of the UK. Nor would I want to have a massive pay cut.
This referendum seems to have warped half the nation's grasp of how democracy actually works....
Opposition isn't the reason Brexit is bad, it is because opposition ALWAYS EXISTS.
There is no glorious unopposed brexit.
There is no alternative reality where 'remoaners' fall in line and start to believe in brexit not that this belief would change realities.(see above). I've still not had any takers for the AKM challenge.
Any sane person knew this at the time of the vote, and has known it every day since.
When the vote took place, both sides knew that they would face opposition afterwards, and that there was no way our relationship with the EU could go to an extreme in either direction.
If Corbyn won a general election tomorrow would you expect the conservatives to just hear the slogan 'will of the people', roll over and support mass nationalisation? Of course you wouldn't.
In fact if you follow this logic... then you MUST accept May's deal no matter how bad it is.
'will of the people' because SHE was elected into power. Therefore what she does you MUST stand by it. Unless you're an enemy of the people you can't pick and choose
'Therefore May's plan is the will of the people' you must support it else you are an enemy of the people.
Sans opposition would be horribly damaging to both our country and democracy for there to be no opposition. Arguably the power the government has in the UK is already damaging for the country and democracy.
There are people here today who voted for Conservative yet they are unhappy about it because it did not turn out how they imagined. Do people shout at them WILL of the people? We can read a few of the posts above and lo and behold somebody who voted Conservative.
The Conservative party won (sort of) and what's happening? They are complaining about it why are they allowed to complain? Nobody is allowed to complain about the result of the 2016 vote'will of the people!'
Without opposition we would constantly be rushing through ill-thought-out policy with damaging consequences. There would be no incentive for the government to even bother trying to craft decent legislation. Maybe it's an inherent flaw of our FPTP system that the government often CAN pass poorly considered legislation without forming any sort of consensus/ compromise courtesy of their total control of the commons.
Rather than seeking consensus and compromise on brexit, brexiters seem to feel entitled to have absolutely everything they want regardless of the consequences, and even if it means taking everything from those who lost.
They then have the sheer audacity to try and blame remainers for trying to defend their own interests (and the country's).
You can call China a dictatorship if you want and for all intents and purposes it is. The CCP spends an enormous amount of time and money ($16bn) polling the public in order to shape policies with as little opposition as possible because guess what? Even in a one party state there is opposition.
If we'd voted to remain and brexiters had stopped us going 'full EU' I wouldn't be blaming 'brexiters' for ruining my dream, I'd accept that the country just didn't want it, and that my original demands were entirely delusional. The current farce is what brexit looks like, because brexit has and always will have opponents.
tl;dr: You don't get to blame your opponents for your own unreasonable demands failing. Policy is only viable if you can pass it DESPITE opposition to it. If opposition makes it unworkable then it was never workable to begin with.
========================================
So what have you done Itchy? What makes you so big and important? Nothing really. All I can do is look out for me and my own interests and action my own plans.
I said my piece about 7 months ago.
Actually move to phase 2..
Greatness isn't simply having ideas. Greatness is doing all the work required to implement those ideas.
https://www.nexustek.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/be_prepared.png |
Britain can either be in the EU or out. The problem Theresa has is that she went to Brussels and says she effectively wants to remain in the market and regulatory system (aka The EU), but with a bigger collection of opt outs than Cameron got. Now she is trying to dress this up as leaving, but it isn't, and everyone knows it. It's like trying to pass off gold foil coated chocolate bars as real gold bars. The EU is willing to negotiate Britain leaving the EU but the government rejected the offer. This limits how good the deal can be because if we are in the EU but getting to drop the bits of the EU we don't like, then its not fair on the other member states. |
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Val |
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Val World Chat Champion
Joined: 03 Nov 2012 Karma :
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Sload |
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Sload World Chat Champion
Joined: 28 Aug 2011 Karma :
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Diggs |
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Diggs World Chat Champion
Joined: 03 Apr 2007 Karma :
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Posted: 17:09 - 09 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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You'll love this...
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/corbyn-could-be-pm-in-days-if-brexit-deal-rejected/ar-BBQHvBd?ocid=spartanntp ____________________ Now - Speed Triple, old ratty GS550, GSXR750M
Gone (in order of ownership) - Raleigh Runabout, AP50, KH125, GP125, KH250, CBX550, Z400, CB750FII, 250LC, GS550, ZXR750H1, Guzzi Targa, GSX750F, KH250 x2, Bimota SB6R and counting... |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 5 years, 111 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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