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panrider_uk |
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panrider_uk World Chat Champion
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B5234FT |
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B5234FT Brolly Dolly
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B5234FT Brolly Dolly
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Posted: 11:01 - 10 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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Sload wrote: | Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: | Of course it's workable, it just needs to be allowed to progress. Instead the government has wasted years talking about it without ever implementing anything to ease the coming situation, or to make the EU think they're serious. Thankfully some business' have made preparations, although some won't act until they have to. Changes have to be made, it's not going to be the same so get over it and get on with it. |
What I interpret Itch is trying to express (correct me if I wrong Itchy) and I agree with which you and several others seem to just not comprehend is reality vs what you want. It might be tenable and workable and give all the pots of gold at the end of the rainbows if everyone got on board and all agreed to sail in the same direction but that is not reality.
Reality is - potentially half the country disagree, there is opposition. It has to be workable despite opposition or it falls flat.
Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: | Corbyn's "opposition" has totally disregarded national interest and is solely focussed on a power grab. I find that unforgivable. |
You assert that he is acting against national interest? Again, potentially if not more now, half the country would disagree, are you seeing this yet?
Your framing is interesting but I'll leave that there, I'll simply point out the only way to gain consensus is to persuade or remove the opposition, one involves a more democratic route another is a touch more authoritarian.
Welcome to at least a semblance of democracy. |
Agree with Itchy and you in the main, apart from the fact that it's not half the country, as I pointed out in a previous post, its more like 14% who will be content with the outcome of Tuesdays decision, which is why you end up with a 52% leave vote and seemingly very strong opposition. |
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- Super Spammer
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Posted: 11:36 - 10 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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52% voted to leave the EU, as in "Leave", not a half in, half out, but still tied to the EU "deal", which is basically still being in the EU, with a couple of minor tweaks.
The whole event has been a farce. The establishment thought we'd be too scared to vote out and have spent the last 2 plus years, trying to find an excuse to wriggle out of it without causing a national outrage. It was fairly obvious from the offset when an avid remain supporter was put in charge of making a massive balls up of "Brexit means Brexit" pretending to leave.
People are so sick of the propaganda and bullshit now, that I doubt most would even bother to kick off.
This appears to be how politics in this "democratic country" works now.
A hardcore left wing minority seem to pull the strings over the democratic majority. At present the Tories are probably further left than Nu Labour were, with tax cuts and wage rises for the poor, whilst squeezing the middle earners.
There is a gaping hole in the political landscape in this country and I doubt UKIP will be the answer now they've picked up the shitty stick of media tainting for being linked to Robinson.
I suspect Farage will start a middle ground to right party as soon as Corbyn and May finish off sabotaging this Brexit attempt. ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
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Diggs |
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Diggs World Chat Champion
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Posted: 11:45 - 10 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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I agree with you that the whole thing has been a farce from start to finish. I also agree that UKIP will lose the 'ordinary bloke' vote because of its silly association with YL and his shady past (and future, no doubt...).
It will be interesting to see what Farage does now. If he is clever, his new party will campaign on a Brexit/anti-establishment ticket only because that is where the votes are right now. ____________________ Now - Speed Triple, old ratty GS550, GSXR750M
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B5234FT |
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B5234FT Brolly Dolly
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Posted: 11:49 - 10 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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mpd72 CPT wrote: | 52% voted to leave the EU, as in "Leave", not a half in, half out, but still tied to the EU "deal", which is basically still being in the EU, with a couple of minor tweaks.
The whole event has been a farce. The establishment thought we'd be too scared to vote out and have spent the last 2 plus years, trying to find an excuse to wriggle out of it without causing a national outrage. It was fairly obvious from the offset when an avid remain supporter was put in charge of making a massive balls up of "Brexit means Brexit" pretending to leave.
People are so sick of the propaganda and bullshit now, that I doubt most would even bother to kick off.
This appears to be how politics in this "democratic country" works now.
A hardcore left wing minority seem to pull the strings over the democratic majority. At present the Tories are probably further left than Nu Labour were, with tax cuts and wage rises for the poor, whilst squeezing the middle earners.
There is a gaping hole in the political landscape in this country and I doubt UKIP will be the answer now they've picked up the shitty stick of media tainting for being linked to Robinson.
I suspect Farage will start a middle ground to right party as soon as Corbyn and May finish off sabotaging this Brexit attempt. |
52% of those who turned out voted to leave, no details, just leave. You have no way of knowing if they wanted soft, hard or fried brexit, everyone had a different idea of what it meant to them, the only common thing was that it involed leaving in some way.
The turnout represents 72% of the registered voters
The registered voters are ~70% of the overall population
Those who voted leave are then divided between deal and no deal, we're yet to see how that one falls, but the number of hard brexit supporters is likely over 15% of the total population.
That doesnt change the referendum result, but it does explain why it feels like the opposition is extremely strong. |
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diesel dog |
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diesel dog Renault 5 Driver
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B5234FT |
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B5234FT Brolly Dolly
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Posted: 12:04 - 10 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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diesel dog wrote: | B5234FT wrote: | You have no way of knowing if they wanted soft, hard or fried brexit, everyone had a different idea of what it meant to them, |
That's opinion and not fact. |
Is it? I've spoken to a number of leave voters, some of whom wanted to be out, regardless of the situation, just out. Others wanted to be out and were confident we could get a good deal, each had their own reasons for being out and concessions they did, or did not want to see made on a deal.
I cant give you precentages, no one can, but it is a fact that the number of leave supporters who wanted no deal brexit was not 52%, it was some number less than that, by at least as many people as I've personally spoken to who voted leave and dont support it.
TLDR, It's a fact that you don't know, no one does. It's also a fact that there was a range of opinions amongst leave voters, just like every other group of people ever. |
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diesel dog Renault 5 Driver
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Polarbear |
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Polarbear Super Spammer
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- Super Spammer
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Posted: 12:27 - 10 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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B5234FT wrote: |
52% of those who turned out voted to leave, no details, just leave. You have no way of knowing if they wanted soft, hard or fried brexit, everyone had a different idea of what it meant to them, the only common thing was that it involed leaving in some way.
The turnout represents 72% of the registered voters
The registered voters are ~70% of the overall population
Those who voted leave are then divided between deal and no deal, we're yet to see how that one falls, but the number of hard brexit supporters is likely over 15% of the total population.
That doesnt change the referendum result, but it does explain why it feels like the opposition is extremely strong. |
I disagree, "leave" means exactly that. Any "deal" is adding a partial leave scenario. That's not leaving, that's sort of leaving.
This deal appears to have been written by the EU, not by or for us. It is far from actually leaving the EU and leaves us tied to it indefinitely, after coughing up £39BN up front, just on the off chance they might talk to us about actually leaving at some stage in the future.
As for "48%" voted Remain. Tough, you lost, that's democracy for you. It was a simple yes/no answer. This deal is aimed more at keeping the 48%, plus May, Corbyn and the rest of the establishment happy, not the majority vote who want to leave.
We keep hearing this "most leave voters want a soft Brexit" bollocks from Remain supporters. The vast majority I hear want to leave the EU under WTO rules, rather than have a watered down Brexit in nothing but name type deal. ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
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B5234FT |
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B5234FT Brolly Dolly
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Posted: 12:38 - 10 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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diesel dog wrote: | Yes, the contents of your reply has just reinforced it is opinion and not fact. |
And yet you're still unable to explain why.
mpd72 CPT wrote: |
I disagree, "leave" means exactly that. Any "deal" is adding a partial leave scenario. That's not leaving, that's sort of leaving.
This deal appears to have been written by the EU, not by or for us. It is far from actually leaving the EU and leaves us tied to it indefinitely, after coughing up £39BN up front, just on the off chance they might talk to us about actually leaving at some stage in the future.
As for "48%" voted Remain. Tough, you lost, that's democracy for you. It was a simple yes/no answer. This deal is aimed more at keeping the 48%, plus May, Corbyn and the rest of the establishment happy, not the majority vote who want to leave.
We keep hearing this "most leave voters want a soft Brexit" bollocks from Remain supporters. The vast majority I hear want to leave the EU under WTO rules, rather than have a watered down Brexit in nothing but name type deal. |
I'm not suggesting leave means there has to be a deal, of course it doesnt. I am suggesting there were a subset of leave voters who expected to have one and that's a fact, as I've met some.
I'm not suggesting the current deal is a good one, at all, I've never said anything of the sort.
I've not suggested that as 48% voted remain......anything.
I also never said "most leave voters". All I'm pointing out is that in any vote, but especially a close one, "the majority" is never in fact a majority of the country and therefore opposition is inevitable, even if those 52% are wholly united in what they want.
Last edited by B5234FT on 12:42 - 10 Dec 2018; edited 1 time in total |
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- Super Spammer
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B5234FT Brolly Dolly
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chickenstrip |
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chickenstrip Super Spammer
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Posted: 13:02 - 10 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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B5234FT wrote: |
Is it? I've spoken to a number of leave voters, some of whom wanted to be out, regardless of the situation, just out. Others wanted to be out and were confident we could get a good deal, each had their own reasons for being out and concessions they did, or did not want to see made on a deal. |
A deal is one thing, but if we are tied to any EU political and economic institutions which mean we have to follow their rules, we haven't left. We have left when it is up to our courts and institutions what we do, what rules and laws we make for our country, who we trade with etc. That's what leave means. Whatever deals we make with the EU don't come into it, or shouldn't. ____________________ Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
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B5234FT |
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B5234FT Brolly Dolly
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Posted: 13:10 - 10 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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chickenstrip wrote: |
A deal is one thing, but if we are tied to any EU political and economic institutions which mean we have to follow their rules, we haven't left. We have left when it is up to our courts and institutions what we do, what rules and laws we make for our country, who we trade with etc. That's what leave means. Whatever deals we make with the EU don't come into it, or shouldn't. |
Agreed, as I said above. I'm not arguing about what leave means to me, you or MPD, I'm simply stating that *some* (unknown quantity) of leave voters voted leave in the expectation of a deal, meaning that a leave voter is not necessarily a supporter of a no deal brexit.
We can argue the numbers (although its pointless as no one knows) but you cant argue they dont exist, or that their views are irrelevant |
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chickenstrip |
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chickenstrip Super Spammer
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Posted: 13:16 - 10 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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B5234FT wrote: |
Agreed, as I said above. I'm not arguing about what leave means to me, you or MPD, I'm simply stating that *some* (unknown quantity) of leave voters voted leave in the expectation of a deal, meaning that a leave voter is not necessarily a supporter of a no deal brexit. |
What do Remainers want from the EU? Do they expect progression to a superstate? Do they expect Brussels to set social policy for all member states? Defence spending? Level of healthcare? Housing policy? What is the EU trying to achieve, what is its goal? Do all Remainers know all this and agree on on it all? Of course not. But it is nothing to do with the simple binary choice of leave or remain in the EU. Leave does indeed mean leave. No matter how it is done, it can only mean one thing. ____________________ Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
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chickenstrip |
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chickenstrip Super Spammer
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Posted: 13:22 - 10 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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It also puzzles me those politicians who say we must respect the EU referendum result, but we mustn't leave without a deal. Given the position of the EU, that means we can't leave. No deal IS the only leave option at this point. ____________________ Chickenystripgeezer's Biking Life (Latest update 19/10/18) Belgium, France, Italy, Austria tour 2016 Picos de Europa, Pyrenees and French Alps tour 2017 Scotland Trip 1, now with BONUS FEATURE edit, 5/10/19, on page 2 Scotland Trip 2 Luxembourg, Black Forest, Switzerland, Vosges Trip 2017
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Diggs |
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Diggs World Chat Champion
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Posted: 13:39 - 10 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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Statement from No.10 at 15.30 this 'aft apparently on whether tomorrow's vote will actually take place..... ____________________ Now - Speed Triple, old ratty GS550, GSXR750M
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Im-a-Ridah |
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Im-a-Ridah World Chat Champion
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Posted: 13:44 - 10 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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Diggs |
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Diggs World Chat Champion
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Posted: 14:02 - 10 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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Mr Bumble gives his reply... ____________________ Now - Speed Triple, old ratty GS550, GSXR750M
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- Super Spammer
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B5234FT |
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B5234FT Brolly Dolly
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Posted: 14:13 - 10 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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chickenstrip wrote: | B5234FT wrote: |
Agreed, as I said above. I'm not arguing about what leave means to me, you or MPD, I'm simply stating that *some* (unknown quantity) of leave voters voted leave in the expectation of a deal, meaning that a leave voter is not necessarily a supporter of a no deal brexit. |
What do Remainers want from the EU? Do they expect progression to a superstate? Do they expect Brussels to set social policy for all member states? Defence spending? Level of healthcare? Housing policy? What is the EU trying to achieve, what is its goal? Do all Remainers know all this and agree on on it all? Of course not. But it is nothing to do with the simple binary choice of leave or remain in the EU. Leave does indeed mean leave. No matter how it is done, it can only mean one thing. |
100% definitely not, but that doesnt matter as they didnt win. Had they done so, a good number would have been unhappy with the eventual outcome in precisely the same way.
Also agree, as I've said many times.
All I've pointed out is the reason the opposition feels so strong is because in any debate, whatever your position, the vast majority of the country dont agree with you, so while it's easy to say "52% of people do" that's ignoring the basic mechanics of it and the inescapable fact that it's 25% or less of the actual human beings in the UK you could discuss it with. |
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- Super Spammer
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Posted: 14:18 - 10 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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B5234FT wrote: |
100% definitely not, but that doesnt matter as they didnt win. Had they done so, a good number would have been unhappy with the eventual outcome in precisely the same way.
Also agree, as I've said many times.
All I've pointed out is the reason the opposition feels so strong is because in any debate, whatever your position, the vast majority of the country dont agree with you, so while it's easy to say "52% of people do" that's ignoring the basic mechanics of it and the inescapable fact that it's 25% or less of the actual human beings in the UK you could discuss it with. |
It was a simple leave/remain vote. That's how democracy works. Someone has to lose, even snowflake have to lose out occasionally. You can't have proportional representation to leave/remain, even if May is ballsing it up that way.
This could be a very important lesson for some of the spoilt brats to get their heads around. ____________________ TZR250 2MA road, TZR250 1KT road, TZR250 2MA race, TDR250, YZF-750R Boost colours.
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B5234FT |
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B5234FT Brolly Dolly
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Posted: 14:21 - 10 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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I'm out. It's like you're replying to an entirely different post
Which part of that was about proportional representation, or not leaving? |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 5 years, 130 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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