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 Posted: 15:14 - 12 Dec 2018  Post subject: |
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| M.C wrote: |
Don't waste your time, I've asked him whether he was better off under New Labour or Cameron/May and he wouldn't even answer that. You can probably infer an answer though... |
Have you? News to me. I've told you loads of times - Try listening.
As a one man band middle earner, I'm around a third worse off under Cameron/May than I was under Blair in tax take, but around a third better off under the Tories now than I was under Blair in tax allowance.
Blair/Brown took from everyone and gave nothing back, Cameron/May take more but allow more back.
Under the Tories I pay around £1500 a year more tax on less earnings than under Blair/Brown, but can take home around £3000 a year more tax free.
If this £3K was taxed at even 26.5%, by the time I pay CT and dividend tax, I'm around £700 a year worse off under the current government for earning less.
The poorest workers are certainly much better off now than under Labour.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 15:23 - 12 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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| Sload wrote: | It might be better just looking into the actual reality of a no deal, those seem to be the only two outcomes likely to occur, and what the loud leavers here want anyway. |
Even "no deal" is a misnomer in the way it is being bandied about. Nobody wants us to not have a trade deal of some description with the EU. But that is a separate issue to wanting out of the EU. First, out. Then, trade deal. It has been clearly demonstrated by the EU that it isn't possible to negotiate a trade deal while we are still in the EU, unless we wish to be dictated to on other matters too. In fact, they're likely to try that on even once we've left, in which case, then it might be a question of no deal, or likely a less ambitious deal.
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cdlxxvi
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Posted: 15:25 - 12 Dec 2018  Post subject: |
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| Sload wrote: | | cdlxxvi wrote: | Sir, no one ever claimed that "any deal" was impossible. |
I think that is a waste of time now tbh. To actually posit we could achieve a better deal then our present status-quo is comical. It might be better just looking into the actual reality of a no deal, those seem to be the only two outcomes likely to occur, and what the loud leavers here want anyway. |
As a staunch remainer I will say it: a "no deal" endgame is theoretically workable.
However, it takes time (much more than 2 years; IMO 2 decades minimum), vision, commitment and resources. It would be a long distance, strategic rearrangement of the entire country, starting with getting infrastructure and processes in place to deal with gradual untangling of EU ties.
IMO it's very unlikely that our leaders and society are cut for this; these days it's all about flag-waving, sabre-rattling, instant gratification, with success measured not in statistics, but in troll farm retweets. Therefore it remains only a theoretical possibility. |
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 15:26 - 12 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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| cdlxxvi wrote: |
As a staunch remainer I will say it: a "no deal" endgame is theoretically workable.
However, it takes time (much more than 2 years; IMO 2 decades minimum), vision, commitment and resources. It would be a long distance, strategic rearrangement of the entire country, starting with getting infrastructure and processes in place to deal with gradual untangling of EU ties.
IMO it's very unlikely that our leaders and society are cut for this; these days it's all about flag-waving, sabre-rattling, instant gratification, with success measured not in statistics, but in troll farm retweets. Therefore it remains only a theoretical possibility. |
Yes, I actually agree with that 
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Sload
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| Posted: 15:36 - 12 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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| cdlxxvi wrote: | As a staunch remainer I will say it: a "no deal" endgame is theoretically workable.
However, it takes time (much more than 2 years; IMO 2 decades minimum), vision, commitment and resources. It would be a long distance, strategic rearrangement of the entire country, starting with getting infrastructure and processes in place to deal with gradual untangling of EU ties. |
Of course, anything is workable, the level of pain or pleasure is the question. I'm reading and listening and the jist seems to be (opinion), the minute we leave with no deal, we will be the only country with no agreed access to any other market (trade deals) and all the negative connotation that brings.
The time it takes to create said deals to access other markets will be years and many people are going to get royally fucked over by this.
Our WTO assertions are laughable with many circling the shark tank ready to take their share of blood.
It's almost as if Nations are predatory and want their pound of flesh and our aspirations of importance are out of sync with reality.
Still, if you have capital available, it might be worth looking into what the pro no deal brexit establishment proponents are doing with their money, could make absolute bank and get clear if it all goes pear shaped.
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chickenstrip
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Posted: 15:45 - 12 Dec 2018  Post subject: |
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| Sload wrote: |
The time it takes to create said deals to access other markets will be years and many people are going to get royally fucked over by this.
Our WTO assertions are laughable with many circling the shark tank ready to take their share of blood.
It's almost as if Nations are predatory and want their pound of flesh and our aspirations of importance are out of sync with reality. |
This is what people mean by project fear. It is not necessarily an organised conspiracy to scare people over Brexit, but often just individuals using such rhetoric as you have used here. Trouble is, it backfires on those who use it, because they have not actually said anything of substance, not to mention its likeness to sensationalist tabloid newspaper headlines, and so gets dismissed as project fear. Calm down chap  Now, tell us more about these sharks, who these predatory nations are, what exactly they intend to do to us, and how you know all this.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 16:12 - 12 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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| Sload wrote: |
If me sharing an opinion on possible outcomes based on the information I'm looking into is scary to you then, well ??????
I mean I'm not trying to frighten you?
Maybe, don't be a snow...... oh wait lol (I'm jesting you).
As to sharing actual stuff, maybe, at some point. I'm still navigating and I unlike some others can admit I'm a bit dim and might be wrong.
If any of you pro no deal leavers can provide actual evidence of a rosy outcome then present, i'll give it a fair hearing.
Or don't, I'm easy either way. |
So what did your post mean?
I simply asked,
| chickenstrip wrote: | Now, tell us more about these sharks, who these predatory nations are, what exactly they intend to do to us, and how you know all this. |
Do you not have answers? Then why did you write what you wrote? If it is your opinion, you must still have based it on something?
I cannot provide evidence of a rosy outcome. Can you provide evidence for what remaining in the EU will look like? I did ask what the future of the EU is earlier. Only one person, and he not a Remainer, cared to have a shot at that one. For one thing, how does one provide evidence for future events, yet to happen?
I do not pretend leaving the EU will be easy. I still want out though.
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Sload
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| Posted: 16:22 - 12 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip wrote: | So what did your post mean? |
Simply this
| Sload wrote: | Of course, anything is workable, the level of pain or pleasure is the question. I'm reading and listening and the jist seems to be (opinion), - yadda yadda yadda |
I may share information if I make an actual claim, which I'm not (unless you dispute anything is workable as that was a claim).
If it was an actual honest thread I might spitball and be more open with sources, too many dishonest players waiting to jump on and misrepresent though 
| chickenstrip wrote: | Do you not have answers? |
Nope
Just a random side point:
| chickenstrip wrote: | how does one provide evidence for future events, yet to happen? |
If I point a loaded gun at your head and pulled the trigger, would the likely outcome be your death?
Bit simple I agree, so how about educated experts making their predictions based on information and facts as close as they can manage and modify and adjust as time and new information is learned? Do you think that is a reasonable method?
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M.C
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| Posted: 16:35 - 12 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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| cdlxxvi wrote: | Sir, no one ever claimed that "any deal" was impossible. |
Goldfish memory. We've had they'll never reach a deal this whole time, even when there was 80% of one it was still being reported as 'nothing has been agreed'. No deal was meant to be the outcome of these negotiations, which's exactly what remainers wanted.
Instead May swooped in, and thought she could appease all sides with a remainer Brexit deal... she's obviously miscalculated that one.
| mpd72 CPT wrote: | Have you? News to me. I've told you loads of times - Try listening.
As a one man band middle earner, I'm around a third worse off under Cameron/May than I was under Blair in tax take, but around a third better off under the Tories now than I was under Blair in tax allowance.
Blair/Brown took from everyone and gave nothing back, Cameron/May take more but allow more back.
Under the Tories I pay around £1500 a year more tax on less earnings than under Blair/Brown, but can take home around £3000 a year more tax free.
If this £3K was taxed at even 26.5%, by the time I pay CT and dividend tax, I'm around £700 a year worse off under the current government for earning less.
The poorest workers are certainly much better off now than under Labour. |
No you haven't  , you said (previously) how the Tories were now shafting you, after advocating that they were the party for working people, and better off doesn't just mean money in your pocket, it's what that money gets you.
That's the reason I'm interested in the New Labour era vs The Tory eras either side, particularly as you seem to advocate Labour as being the party for scroungers, like Rogerborg used to but he was a top-rate tax payer |
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 16:59 - 12 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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| It is indeed the case that Sload wrote: | yadda yadda yadda |
| Sload wrote: |
Just a random side point:
| chickenstrip wrote: | how does one provide evidence for future events, yet to happen? |
If I point a loaded gun at your head and pulled the trigger, would the likely outcome be your death? |
Where is your loaded gun? I don't believe you have one. But if you did, what if you forgot to release the safety? What if I'm wearing a bullet-proof helmet? What if I'm behind bullet-proof glass? What if your loaded gun is poorly maintained and misfires, taking your hand off? What if your ammunition is faulty?
What if your ammunition is faulty? 
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| Posted: 17:00 - 12 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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| M.C wrote: |
| mpd72 CPT wrote: | Have you? News to me. I've told you loads of times - Try listening.
As a one man band middle earner, I'm around a third worse off under Cameron/May than I was under Blair in tax take, but around a third better off under the Tories now than I was under Blair in tax allowance.
Blair/Brown took from everyone and gave nothing back, Cameron/May take more but allow more back.
Under the Tories I pay around £1500 a year more tax on less earnings than under Blair/Brown, but can take home around £3000 a year more tax free.
If this £3K was taxed at even 26.5%, by the time I pay CT and dividend tax, I'm around £700 a year worse off under the current government for earning less.
The poorest workers are certainly much better off now than under Labour. |
No you haven't , you said (previously) how the Tories were now shafting you, after advocating that they were the party for working people, and better off doesn't just mean money in your pocket, it's what that money gets you.
That's the reason I'm interested in the New Labour era vs The Tory eras either side, particularly as you seem to advocate Labour as being the party for scroungers, like Rogerborg used to but he was a top-rate tax payer |
That's the answer. I'm financially worse off now than under Labour. I even broke it down for you.
The Tories seem to be targeting people in the middle income, wherever they can sneak a quiet tax in and using it to fund tax credits for part time workers, many of whom are EU immigrants. Labour spunked the tax on the feckless.
I should imagine I'm not the usual case though as my tax has been greatly increased by sneaking in the dividend tax on top of corporation tax. This wont affect many, but it's a big cost for me as a lower rate earner.
At the same time, the proposed £80 a year increase in NI for the self employed created a national outcry and got overturned. Clearly there are not enough one man bands who have to be limited like me, to make a loud enough noise to get our dividend tax overturned, because it's costing me £1500 a year, not the £80 which was too outrageous for self employed folk.
Easy pickings for the chancellor.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 17:55 - 12 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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| Sload wrote: |
none of those variables were included in the question. |
I thought it was an analogy. I suggested to you that you don't have any further information and therefore don't actually know what would happen. Or indeed, had nothing of substance in the first place.
| Quote: | I think you got my meaning, I'm happy with that. |
No, I'm still waiting for you to make it clear. Who are your predatory sharks? What will they do to us if we leave the EU? Seems to me that you are the one dodging questions.
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Sload
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| Posted: 18:20 - 12 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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Ok, I'll try one more time as I don't think you are actually dishonest.
| chickenstrip wrote: | I thought it was an analogy. I suggested to you that you don't have any further information and therefore don't actually know what would happen. Or indeed, had nothing of substance in the first place. |
The analogy was a very basic thought experiment in relation to this:
| chickenstrip wrote: | how does one provide evidence for future events, yet to happen? |
To which you reframed it to avoid answering. I thought you were just playing? To which I replied
| Sload wrote: | I think you got my meaning, I'm happy with that. |
I guess not.
| chickenstrip wrote: | No, I'm still waiting for you to make it clear. Who are your predatory sharks? What will they do to us if we leave the EU? Seems to me that you are the one dodging questions. |
Now this is perplexing, I have literally told you I am talking opinion and am trying to read into this more now.
| chickenstrip wrote: | you don't have any further information and therefore don't actually know what would happen. Or indeed, had nothing of substance in the first place. |
No I don't, certainly nothing concrete and nothing I would make an argument or a claim from, as I stated.
Are you intentionally mixing up points and twisting and misunderstanding me?
In case you missed it the first time
https://cdn.bcf.44bytes.net/files/untitled_160.png
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| Posted: 18:21 - 12 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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| M.C wrote: | | mpd72 CPT wrote: | Inflation has been low and wage increases are a record high apparently.
You live on n the U.K. I take it? |
Do you? https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45875599 'The average pace of wage growth was 4% before the global financial crisis. Economists have been puzzled why wages have grown so slowly even as unemployment has fallen sharply.' |
You've got to laugh at Al beeb agenda. They can still turn a 10 year record high growth figure into doom and gloom.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-46520876
| Quote: | Wages are continuing to rise at their highest level for nearly a decade, the latest official Office for National Statistics figures show. |
I'll tell you why wages are still relatively low, even if they're growing at they're fastest rate for a decade - Inflation has remained low, the government keep subsidising them with tax credits and flooding the labour market with immigrants, a legacy handed to them from... a decade ago.
What is it you think has gone up more than wage rises? Rent? Anything else? I can remember fuel being more expensive than this in recent years.
Over the last 4-5 years, wage growth has easily outstripped inflation.
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| Posted: 18:36 - 12 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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Rent; the biggest outgoing for most people? Dianne Abbott could understand that graph, we're still below pre-recession levels, and they've been on their arse for most of the last decade. |
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Sister Sledge
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| Posted: 19:25 - 12 Dec 2018 Post subject: |
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Stacks of bickering there folks 
So May gets voted on to determine if she can stay as leader or they begin a process of choosing a new leader.
I reckon May could stay on as leader (for a year unchallenged) if she simply states to the rest of them that her deal is a fail and she'll drop it completely. That she'll go hard Brexit.
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 5 years, 135 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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