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chickenstrip
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 Posted: 23:33 - 16 Jan 2019  Post subject: |
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| Riejufixing wrote: |
I don't know |
As usual, I just skimmed your answer, but this seemed to be the pertinent point 
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Riejufixing
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Riejufixing
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M.C
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Posted: 23:42 - 16 Jan 2019  Post subject: |
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How many is that now? Don't worry chicken I still love you  |
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Riejufixing
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 23:47 - 16 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| M.C wrote: | How many is that now? Don't worry chicken I still love you |
Woe is me! Plonked by Reijufixing! Whatever will I do?! 
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| Posted: 23:49 - 16 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| M.C wrote: | .
| mpd72 CPT wrote: | MC presumed it delivered border control, when in fact nothing changed under it, including freedom of movement. |
I really CBA arguing over a dead deal, I'll just post this: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-. |
That’s nothing to do with the dead deal, that’s a fantasy white paper about what might happen if there was ever an after life and the EU let us go. It was also too soft and still didn’t regain proper control on immigration.
I’ve shown you that freedom of movement, like all other EU rules, would continue under May’s dead deal. The scary part was, there was no assurance that the EU would ever agree an exit from the dead deal and could even start charging us again after 2 years.
I wasn’t having a pop, merely stating that a lot of people assumed the deal actually delivered some form of leaving due to lies and smoke screens from May, where in fact nothing technically changed.
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| Posted: 23:55 - 16 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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M.C
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| Posted: 00:03 - 17 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: | | M.C wrote: | It was a question to steer the conversation... it seems to have worked. |
Yeah, right. If you want to make a point, spell it out. |
No one else found it cryptic 
| mpd72 CPT wrote: |
That’s nothing to do with the dead deal, that’s a fantasy white paper about what might happen if there was ever an after life and the EU let us go. It was also too soft and still didn’t regain proper control on immigration.
I’ve shown you that freedom of movement, like all other EU rules, would continue under May’s dead deal. The scary part was, there was no assurance that the EU would ever agree an exit from the dead deal and could even start charging us again after 2 years.
I wasn’t having a pop, merely stating that a lot of people assumed the deal actually delivered some form of leaving due to lies and smoke screens from May, where in fact nothing technically changed. |
I'm sure I said last time that May's deal was only the first part, there's a line in that article (fixed the link btw) that says about freedom of movement/post-brexit talks but for now I CBA going into it.
Who knows if the EU do 'grant' us more time, and it's used as a basis for a Labour/Lib Dem/SNP/DUP et al deal then it might become relevant again. |
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Riejufixing
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| Posted: 00:06 - 17 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: | | Riejufixing wrote: | the problem is that if they can't agree, it is possible that the government itself will change the date of its own accord. |
Can it do that without Parliamentary agreement? If Parliament can't agree then the clock is ticking towards the default No Deal Brexit. |
Unfortunately it can. I might've posted it earlier, hang on...
Edit: Yes, here it is, from 23:20:
The relevant words are in the EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018:
20. Interpretation:
"exit day" means 29 March 2019 at 11.00 p.m. (and see subsections (2) to (5));
(2) In this Act references to before, after or on exit day, or to beginning with exit day, are to be read as references to before, after or at 11.00 p.m. on 29 March 2019 or (as the case may be) to beginning with 11.00 p.m. on that day
(4) A Minister of the Crown may by regulations—
(a) amend the definition of “exit day” in subsection (1) to ensure that the day and time specified in the definition are the day and time that the Treaties are to cease to apply to the United Kingdom, and
(b) amend subsection (2) in consequence of any such amendment.
So basically, a Cabinet minister says "Oh we need to change the date", and writes a new one in. There is little that can be done to prevent this, and it is possible that parliament may force it to happen (but I hope not).
Last edited by Riejufixing on 00:15 - 17 Jan 2019; edited 1 time in total |
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M.C
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| Posted: 00:07 - 17 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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I only remember one other person who used to 'plonk'
It is him |
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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| Posted: 00:51 - 17 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| Riejufixing wrote: | | Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: | Can it do that without Parliamentary agreement? If Parliament can't agree then the clock is ticking towards the default No Deal Brexit. |
Unfortunately it can. I might've posted it earlier, hang on...
Edit: Yes, here it is, from 23:20:
The relevant words are in the EU (Withdrawal) Act 2018:
20. Interpretation:
"exit day" means 29 March 2019 at 11.00 p.m. (and see subsections (2) to (5));
(2) In this Act references to before, after or on exit day, or to beginning with exit day, are to be read as references to before, after or at 11.00 p.m. on 29 March 2019 or (as the case may be) to beginning with 11.00 p.m. on that day
(4) A Minister of the Crown may by regulations—
(a) amend the definition of “exit day” in subsection (1) to ensure that the day and time specified in the definition are the day and time that the Treaties are to cease to apply to the United Kingdom, and
(b) amend subsection (2) in consequence of any such amendment.
So basically, a Cabinet minister says "Oh we need to change the date", and writes a new one in. There is little that can be done to prevent this, and it is possible that parliament may force it to happen (but I hope not). |
That can't be right. What about the EU? |
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 01:07 - 17 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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 Careful now.
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Riejufixing
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| Posted: 01:11 - 17 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: | | Riejufixing wrote: |
Unfortunately it can. I might've posted it earlier, hang on...
Edit: Yes, here it is, from 23:20: |
That can't be right. What about the EU? |
OK, while our government can easily change *our* definition of exit day, &/OR withdraw our A.50TEU notification (as the EU have said they can), there's still a bit of a problem (depending on your definition of "problem").
If "we" just wanted to re-schedule our exit, we would have to change the definition of exit day in our legislation, and the EU would have to agree to extend the A.50 date too.
If "we" wanted to stop our exit completely, we would have to withdraw unilaterally our A.50 letter, and clean up our own legislation, perhaps by extending the date long enough for parliament as a whole to get rid of it.
That's about it, from the EU's point of view.
Now, remembering back to the old days of UKIP, when we were talking about "the nuclear option", of just repealing the European Communities Act 1972 (this is what the 2018 EU (Withdrawal) Act does in a controlled way, see above post); it's the ultimate safeguard against the EU going completely totalitarian or whatever, assuming of course that our parliament still has some degree of independence.
"Taking the nuclear option" could be done if, for instance, the EU somehow flatly refused to let us out. It could also be done if our parliament developed the desire (it won't, currently) to leave unilaterally. It would mean a new Act to simply repeal the 1972 Act, or amending the definition of exit day in the 2018 Withdrawal Act to (for instance) tomorrow.
Then we'd be out of the EU, and they couldn't do anything about it.
However, unfortunately that's vanishingly unlikely to happen at the moment. There would be a right old hoo-ha about it if we did! |
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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| Posted: 02:03 - 17 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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It's late, I'm tired and I'm not sure I understand your point. We've declared article 50 so according to the EU's own rules we are out on 29th March by default.
The only alternatives are;
 we unilaterally rescind article 50, repeal the act and thus remain in the EU indefinitely,
we ask the EU for an extension, which would require all EU members to agree, and we then continue to argue and faff over Leave or Remain for another couple of years, to no end,
The default is still No Deal Brexit on 29th March unless there is an agreement on withdrawal or an extension, both of which seem highly unlikely considering there is a united EU and a divide UK parliament. Also undesirable.
No deal? Bring me that horizon. Let's move on. |
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Riejufixing
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| Posted: 02:20 - 17 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: | It's late, I'm tired and I'm not sure I understand your point. We've declared article 50 so according to the EU's own rules we are out on 29th March by default.
The only alternatives are;
we unilaterally rescind article 50, repeal the act and thus remain in the EU indefinitely,
we ask the EU for an extension, which would require all EU members to agree, and we then continue to argue and faff over Leave or Remain for another couple of years, to no end,
The default is still No Deal Brexit on 29th March unless there is an agreement on withdrawal or an extension, both of which seem highly unlikely considering there is a united EU and a divide UK parliament. Also undesirable.
No deal? Bring me that horizon. Let's move on. |
The point is only that yes, we leave on the 29th by default, but the default can and might be changed.
The most likely thing I think if there's to be any change is that exit day is redefined. I don't think we'll stay in. I bloody well hope not, anyway.
I do *not* like the idea of an extension and the redefinition of exit day, by the way. It's just that it could happen. If it does, I think there will be trouble, but that depends on what the plan might be.
I'm not giving away any secrets here, you understand, Remainers in parliament and their allies outside it know these things, and who knows what else they'll get up to besides.
There are two sorts of Remainer, though:
1) Those who accept the result of the vote, and work to go forwards - OK.
2) Those who don't accept the result, and try to change it - scum.
Edit: My preferences, in order of acceptability:
1) An exit arrangement as long as it gets us fully out on March 29th.
2) A no-deal exit on March 29th..
3) An exit after March 29th as long as it gets us fully out.
4) Nothing else is acceptable. |
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Im-a-Ridah
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| Posted: 04:22 - 17 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: | It's late, I'm tired and I'm not sure I understand your point. We've declared article 50 so according to the EU's own rules we are out on 29th March by default.
The only alternatives are;
we unilaterally rescind article 50, repeal the act and thus remain in the EU indefinitely,
we ask the EU for an extension, which would require all EU members to agree, and we then continue to argue and faff over Leave or Remain for another couple of years, to no end,
The default is still No Deal Brexit on 29th March unless there is an agreement on withdrawal or an extension, both of which seem highly unlikely considering there is a united EU and a divide UK parliament. Also undesirable.
No deal? Bring me that horizon. Let's move on. |
Repeal of A50 and stopping of Brexit are totally doable, there is a huge majority for it in Parliament but it will cause a split in the Conservative party meaning that Jeremy Corbyn stays in until the Brexiteers get to leave the EU. It's true that the remainers can bring down the government by working with Labour, but the Brexiteers can erase the party from existence. Worse still for the Tories the grassroots back Brexit so the "body" of the party (associations etc) would be going with the splitters. The younger conservatives are also mostly Brexiteers, the remainer types all go to Labour.
No hard Brexiteer is asking for a no deal, we just want a Canada style free trade agreement with some cooperation where it benefits both sides. The media conflates this with "walking away" or "crashing out" or "not having a deal" which is far from the case. However we also don't want to be in the EU by the back door either.
Both sides (remainers and Brexiteers) still think they can win by towing May to their position. That's why it didn't blow up today, both sides saw it as a victory. When one side realises they have lost then we will see the real vote of no confidence. Maybe the remainers will work with Labour if they lose to get a second ref or vote of no confidence, and if the Brexiteers lose it will probably be the end of the party. |
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| Posted: 10:35 - 17 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| M.C wrote: | ]
I'm sure I said last time that May's deal was only the first part, there's a line in that article (fixed the link btw) that says about freedom of movement/post-brexit talks but for now I CBA going into it.
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Probably this bit..
| Quote: | The ending of free movement from Europe is a key part of Mrs May's Brexit deal, although any replacement system is set to be part of post-Brexit trade talks. |
But if you cut the typical Al Beeb/May bullshit, it actually means that May's deal would have changed nothing and free movement from Europe is still in place during the 2 year minimum deal. She advertised this deal as meeting all the Brexit requirements, when in reality very little changed, it was just suggested that at the end of it, the EU would have come to some other deal or agreement which would be put in place, which would include the things May was promising her deal had as its "key parts".
As we all know, the big issue was that the EU were under no obligation to agree anything with us and could keep us in this Remain limbo for up to 99 years if they wanted, charging us as normal in the process.
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Posted: 10:42 - 17 Jan 2019  Post subject: |
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| Im-a-Ridah wrote: | No hard Brexiteer is asking for a no deal, |
Well, it's actually the most popular option for leave voters. The latest polls had Don't know at 6-7%, Remain at 41% and Leave on 52%, of which 30% want to leave with no deal and only 22% wanted May's deal. Looking at social media and hearing people in offices when I'm out for work, the No Deal, WTO option seems a hell of a lot more popular than the media are letting on.
As the next deal on the table will be no different to a tweaked version of the latest stitch up and Corbyn is making damn sure the most popular choice from voters is not allowed and ruled out, we'll end up with the softest Brexit you could imagine.
https://whatukthinks.org/eu/questions/if-there-was-a-referendum-tomorrow-with-the-option-of-accepting-the-governments-brexit-agreement-or-leaving-the-eu-without-a-deal-which-would-you-support-2-2/
I know these petitions are a waste of time and the government played this one down by brushing it aside and "debating" it briefly in a side chamber, along with a dozen other Brexit petitions, but 336,000 signatures is almost a record isn't it?
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/229963
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| Posted: 11:07 - 17 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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When you think about what Corbyn is doing here, in saying that until the government rule out a no deal Brexit, his party will not support leaving, what he's doing here is forcing legislation to make the decision and not what the public voted for.
The vote asked the public is they wanted to remain or leave the EU and promised to implement what the public decided. Corbyn is now trying to force legislation for parliament to have the final say, not the voting public. His threat means we can only leave with a "deal", which we all know will be nothing like properly leaving, or remain. Is this what people voted for? Is it feck.
Is this even legal, or will they need to change the laws to suit the establishment again? As the law stands, if no deal is agreed, we actually leave properly on 29th March. Corbyn is trying to force this law to be changed to allow a hugely biased Remain parliament to get the final say over the Leave favoured democratic vote, on whether we leave and how much we must remain tied to the EU.
How is this dick in charge of a party? If we legislate that we can't leave without an EU approved deal, all the EU have to do is not agree a deal and we can't leave, or only agree a deal which suits them, not us. He's another from the EUFixing Ladybird book of political negotiation, who has not got an ounce of common sense, nor negotiating skills.
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 5 years, 92 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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It was a question to steer the conversation... it seems to have worked.
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