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 Posted: 13:29 - 21 Jan 2019  Post subject: |
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| cdlxxvi wrote: | | mpd72 CPT wrote: | a No Deal Brexit, which let's face it is basically "Leaving the EU" and what people voted for |
52% voted Leave 2.5 years ago. Today 28% appears to support no deal. Is your point that:
A) No deal is not "basically leaving the EU and what people voted for", hence the 52/28 difference?
B) No deal is "Leaving the EU and what people voted for", but the support for it almost halved since the referendum? |
Or cutting the Remain bias, the most popular choice from the many options, even in a biased survey commissioned by your Remain mates at the Guardian, is a proper Brexit.
That's how democracy should work. 
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cdlxxvi
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 13:44 - 21 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: |
It just means people had different reasons for Leave, and if you break it down into multiple options you split the vote. That doesn't mean there wasn't/isn't a majority for Leave and that we should stay in.
It looks like Remain was an option in the poll, so what happened to the 48%? (I can't see that detail.) |
I think actually Remain and Leave have a similar approach in some ways. Each option is just one thing at this point - if like me, you believe that leave means leave; out, free and clear of all institutions, regulations and law-making. When we have settled on one or the other, then folks will decide and work towards what kind of their preferred option they wish to see. Remain - well, do you want a super state? Do you just want easy trade? Do you want the EU to set our social policy? Will you have any say in these things if we stay? Does that matter to you? To pretend there are no questions over the Remain option is just ludicrous, because these questions are being debated by the EU themselves.
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Polarbear
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| Posted: 13:54 - 21 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| cdlxxvi wrote: | | Kawasaki Jimbo wrote: |
It looks like Remain was an option in the poll, so what happened to the 48%? (I can't see that detail.) |
Unhelpfully, this option was not in the ICM poll. |
Given the options, I'd say the majority are here...
| Quote: | the next most popular option, supported by just under 1 in 4(24%) of the public, is to start the process of holding a second referendum. |
This is the most telling part, considering this was conducted after May's Deal Mk1 was unanimously rejected by parliament and most commentators expect her to tweak it and try again...
A rehash of May's deal or softer Brexit deal is not popular at all, so where are the other half of Remain voters?
| Quote: | It’s also illuminating to see what the general public don’t think should happen next – in the public’s eyes May’s deal is dead, with only 8% thinking she should persist on getting it through parliament. Only a small number more think she should call a general election (11%). And one of the most likely options in the eyes of many commentators – trying to renegotiate a ‘softer’ Brexit deal – only gets the support of 1 in 8 (13%) of the population. |
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 13:59 - 21 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| Polarbear wrote: |
I agree but the way the politicians et all think is that everything other than full membership is a form of leave whereas you, I and a lot of Breiteers think anything short of full exit is a form of remain. |
That's because our politicians are vastly on the Remain side, and have been from the off.
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cdlxxvi
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Posted: 14:00 - 21 Jan 2019  Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip wrote: |
I think actually Remain and Leave have a similar approach in some ways. Each option is just one thing at this point - if like me, you believe that leave means leave; out, free and clear of all institutions, regulations and law-making. When we have settled on one or the other, then folks will decide and work towards what kind of their preferred option they wish to see. Remain - well, do you want a super state? Do you just want easy trade? Do you want the EU to set our social policy? Will you have any say in these things if we stay? Does that matter to you? To pretend there are no questions over the Remain option is just ludicrous, because these questions are being debated by the EU themselves. |
Sir, there is no symmetry in this case, because Remain is a status quo, with revolutionary changes being very hypothetical, with more than even chance of minor, evolutionary steps (based on evidence over decades of experience so far).
To use an analogy, we live in a flat and decide whether to move house. If we stay, we can of course redecorate and be participate in all kinds of hypothetical decisions of the residents' association of which we are a member. But if we move, we can do everything from choosing a different flat in the same building to sitting in a tent in a brownfield outside of town, believing that one day we will build a very beautiful palace.
What happened to the Leave vote is one fringe group claiming that the tent + promised palace option was what everyone who voted to move wanted, elsewhere we will be still tied to the old house. |
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Sload
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| Posted: 15:34 - 21 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| cdlxxvi wrote: |
Sir, there is no symmetry in this case, because Remain is a status quo, |
Here lies a common myth. Do you expect the EU and it's control over it's member states to remain the same, without forced entry to it's currency, an EU army, central taxation and more power being devolved to it's central, federal control?
A common misconception by remain voters is that things will stay as they are now. It's quite clear from the EU lately, that this notion is rapidly disappearing. I'd say to keep things more like the status quo, we're better off out, so we can do things how we want to.
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chickenstrip
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| Posted: 15:40 - 21 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| Sload wrote: | | cdlxxvi wrote: | Sir, there is no symmetry in this case, because Remain is a status quo, with revolutionary changes being very hypothetical, with more than even chance of minor, evolutionary steps |
I cannot believe you had to state that. |
I cannot believe that you two believe that.
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cdlxxvi
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| Posted: 16:39 - 21 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| mpd72 CPT wrote: | | cdlxxvi wrote: |
Sir, there is no symmetry in this case, because Remain is a status quo, |
Here lies a common myth. Do you expect the EU and it's control over it's member states to remain the same, without forced entry to it's currency, an EU army, central taxation |
Would you care to dispel that myth using data? Can you name the examples of member states being forced to adopt the shared currency, army, and taxation since, say, the referendum?
I am asking for that because I am sure that you would never use scaremongering similar to "Turkey is joining the EU" which, when the facts are examined, turns out to be unlikely in the next couple of thousand years. |
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| Posted: 16:50 - 21 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| cdlxxvi wrote: | | mpd72 CPT wrote: |
Here lies a common myth. Do you expect the EU and it's control over it's member states to remain the same, without forced entry to it's currency, an EU army, central taxation |
Would you care to dispel that myth using data? Can you name the examples of member states being forced to adopt the shared currency, army, and taxation since, say, the referendum?
I am asking for that because I am sure that you would never use scaremongering similar to "Turkey is joining the EU" which, when the facts are examined, turns out to be unlikely in the next couple of thousand years. |
No, as usual, you're right. All of those things are just in my imagination and not regularly in the news. 
Here, have some fictional non truth...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euro_convergence_criteria
| Quote: | The euro convergence criteria (also known as the Maastricht criteria) are the criteria which European Union member states are required to meet to enter the third stage of the Economic and Monetary Union (EMU) and adopt the euro as their currency. The four main criteria, which actually comprise five criteria as the "fiscal criterion" consists of both a "debt criterion" and a "deficit criterion", are based on Article 140 (ex article 121.1) of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union. |
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| M.C |
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M.C
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| Posted: 16:58 - 21 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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In other news May has addressed Parliament... nothing has changed in her mind  She still seems to thinking she can renegotiate, get her deal through, by the end of March.
Last edited by M.C on 17:05 - 21 Jan 2019; edited 2 times in total |
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cdlxxvi
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| Posted: 17:02 - 21 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| mpd72 CPT wrote: |
Here lies a common myth. Do you expect the EU and it's control over it's member states to remain the same, without forced entry to it's currency, an EU army, central taxation |
| Quote: | No, as usual, you're right. All of those things are just in my imagination and not regularly in the news. |
While you offer a wondrously plausible explanation, it is just worth noting that a thing being in the news doesn't mean that it's actually happening. News is full of ends of existence, vile vaccines, almighty aliens, and EU excesses, all with very little evidence of actually being real.
These are the criteria a country should meet to adopt euro as its currency. Your original point was that EU forces member states to adopt it; where is the evidence of that? |
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Sload
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| Posted: 17:34 - 21 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| cdlxxvi wrote: |
These are the criteria a country should meet to adopt euro as its currency. Your original point was that EU forces member states to adopt it; where is the evidence of that? |
Come on, how long before we're also "legally obliged" to adopt it? They can't run their well publicised dream of Federal control over Europe, when the single largest market won't accept the currency like everyone else will have to.
| Quote: | All EU members which have joined the bloc since the signing of the Maastricht treaty in 1992 are legally obliged to adopt the euro |
As for taxation, they're already telling us what we can and can't do, such as setting minimum VAT rates. How long before they set everything Europe wide?
| Quote: | Tax harmonization in EU
In the EU the policy of tax harmonization is not regular in the taxation field however in order to have a well-functioning single market the alteration of national fiscal policies is key. Through the actions of European Institutions (fiscal policy coordination, harmonization of tax laws, etc.), or by the action of the European Court of Justice (prohibiting certain national tax rules that violate EU rules) tax harmonization can be achieved. [3]
VAT
The Value-Added Tax (VAT) is part of the acquis communautaire, and two directives (1977 and 2006) closely codify the VAT regime in EU Member states, with a minimum standard rate of 15% and a restricted list of reduced rates. Excise duties are also subject to minimum rates, based on Articles 191-192 of the Treaty on the Functioning of the European Union (TFEU). This treaty base allows the Council and the Parliament to take decisions, including on taxes, to protect human health, safeguard the environment and promote a “rational utilization of natural resources”.[4]
Capital income tax
In 1990, the Parent-subsidiary directive tackled the issue of double taxation of repatriated profits by a mother company from its subsidiaries.4 Member states are requested either to exempt repatriated profits, or to deduct taxes already paid by the affiliates from the mother's tax bill (partial credit system). The objective was to avoid discriminating against foreign subsidiaries (taxed twice) in relation to purely domestic firms (taxed only once). In 2003, the Interest and Royalties directive further reduced the incidence of double taxation by abolishing withholding taxes on cross-border interest and royalty payments within the EU.[4] |
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| Posted: 17:43 - 21 Jan 2019 Post subject: |
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| Sload wrote: |
Another nugget is that we currently have a border enforced from both sides and quite effectively too despite what the BS some might feed into their brains. Even so, if you think it is too permeable at this point just wait...... |
We currently have no control over how many EU citizens come here, nor when and if they can milk the UK benefits system. How is that us enforcing a border?
| Sload wrote: | Still I have a theory. I think some small segment of the brexiteer camp actually wants to economically ruin the country. |
Or maybe they want to stop the EU from milking us dry? All we are to them is a net contributor in fees, with a massive and growing trade deficit to them. They flog us way more than they buy from us, then charge us billions for the privilege of buying from them. We also provide benefits and work for many of the poorer EU nations, boosting their economies. Poland was basically rescued by the UK jobs market and in work benefits system.
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Kawasaki Jimbo
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Posted: 20:11 - 21 Jan 2019  Post subject: |
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| cdlxxvi wrote: | Remain is a status quo, with revolutionary changes being very hypothetical, with more than even chance of minor, evolutionary steps (based on evidence over decades of experience so far). |
Deliberate, incremental change is what brought us to Brexit.
The EU is gradually moving away from unanimity to qualified majority voting (QMV)*, so nations (sorry, "states") could be outvoted and obliged to accept policies they don't like. Westminster uses QMV of course, but there's a difference between applying a single set of rules to a nation compared to a whole continent of diverse economies and cultures. I don't think it can work, and it's already created a resistance movement usually labelled nationalist, populist, right-wing, which threatens peace. The EU did this.
*Junker's last "state of the union' speech went further and called for QMV in taxation and foreign affairs. He also urged increased cooperation in defence. |
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Riejufixing
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 5 years, 94 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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