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G
The Voice of Reason
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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 Posted: 09:59 - 14 Dec 2016  Post subject: |
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Portugal went with sort-of decriminalisation. You can in principle be fined, but usually it's just a Drugs Are Bad lecture and a stiff fingering  .
By some measures, it's been a success, with (axiomatically) a drop in drug crime, and a drop in the number of people reporting recent "drug" use.
I quote "drug" use, since the flip side is that the burden has been shifted from the criminal to the health system. They have government vans driving around the cities hosing down the zombies with methadone. Addicts gonna dict.
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GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Ste
Not Work Safe
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Rogerborg
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RhynoCZ
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Pjay
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Ste
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Pjay
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Ste
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| Posted: 13:30 - 15 Dec 2016 Post subject: |
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Yup, that's about four schedules of controlled substances, what's your point?  |
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Pjay
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Ste
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| Posted: 14:04 - 15 Dec 2016 Post subject: |
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You could call coffee a narcotic however it would be more accurate to say that it's a stimulant. 
That full classification of all Narcotic Drugs is actually a full classification of all controlled narcotic drugs. |
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Pjay
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Ste
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| Posted: 14:09 - 15 Dec 2016 Post subject: |
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| Pjay |
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Pjay
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| Posted: 14:10 - 15 Dec 2016 Post subject: |
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jjdugen
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| -Matt- |
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-Matt-
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Posted: 19:14 - 15 Dec 2016  Post subject: |
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| Rogerborg wrote: | By some measures, it's been a success, with (axiomatically) a drop in drug crime, and a drop in the number of people reporting recent "drug" use. |
In the grand scheme of things, it appears by most measures its been a success in relation to all crime. | TDPF wrote: | [Regarding 2001 decriminilsation in Portugal] decriminalisation does not appear to have caused an increase in crimes typically associated with drugs. While opportunistic thefts and robberies had gone up when measured in 2004, it has been suggested that this may have been because police were able to use the time saved by no longer arresting drug users to tackle (and record) other low-level crimes. Although difficult to test, this theory is perhaps supported by the fact that, during the same period, there was a reduction in recorded cases of other, more complex crimes typically committed by people who are dependent on drugs, such as thefts from homes and businesses. |
I would say its common sense - why automatically criminalise a large proportion of the population who are able to use drugs recreationally without it impacting others, when police time can be spent on offenders who are impacting others for whatever reason.
If the government proposed tomorrow, that everyone who smokes a few spliffs a week needs NHS treatment because they're a "drug addict", I imagine there would be outrage about it being totally disproportionate/a waste of money etc. Thats essentially the justice system we have now - but people often don't bother to question whether its doing any good as its been the rhetoric and status quo for so long.
| Rogerborg wrote: | I quote "drug" use, since the flip side is that the burden has been shifted from the criminal to the health system. |
I wouldn't say its necessarily been shifted - it still costs, but at least the money and services are achieving something more often. If anything, incarcerating people for possession/use increases drug abuse and the subsequent "burden". The health system was still reasonably involved in treatment before decriminalisation in Portugal, as per the UK/US etc currently - but in Portugal it now has more budget and involvement (as less is being spunked on the futile justice carousel) and although it certainly doesn't always improve the situation, it has a lot better chance of doing so. Drug deaths have dropped, HIV rates have dropped, drug use longterm has dropped.
| jjdugen wrote: | The trouble with legitimizing drugs and having governments control and supply is that it will eventually be seen as a tax cash cow. I don't think I have paid a penny of tobacco tax for decades, I just support my local Mafia. |
Arguably it should be a tax "cash cow" to some extent, as is alcohol and tobacco. Whilst plenty of people can use alcohol/tobacco/"illicit" drugs without causing an immediate problem - it can often cost health and other services a fair chunk in the longterm. Currently, we have a system whereby a very large amount of potential money to fund treatment/other services to help people that do harmfully use drugs, is going into the hands of people that have a vested interest increasing their problem's - thats not good for anyone. |
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| Azoth |
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Azoth
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| Posted: 22:09 - 15 Dec 2016 Post subject: |
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There is a difference between countries like the Phillipines, and Portugal. I've seen bus drivers high on shabu-shabu, and it isn't a pretty sight. They start taking these drugs, which are cheap, to work longer so they can earn enough to support a family. Addiction soon follows, and it becomes working longer hours, or committing crimes in the neighbourhood, to support that family AND to buy drugs (which aren't so cheap if you are compelled by addiciton to buy them regularly). Who suffers? Other poor people, who become victims of crime, road accidents, bent cops, etc.
So the people of the Phillipines, who are among the nicest and most tolerant in SE Asia, basically had enough and voted for this dark angel President to rid them of this ultimate, living symbol of poverty, desperation and suffering. If you don't live there, it's only natural that it's hard to comprehend why the Filipinos have adopted this 'unenlightened' stance. But, who knows, it may work..
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Mawsley
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| -Matt- |
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-Matt-
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| Posted: 22:36 - 15 Dec 2016 Post subject: |
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| Tawny wrote: | There is a difference between countries like the Phillipines, and Portugal. |
Difference being - Portugal had at least a half decent drug rehabilitation system even before decriminalisation. The Phillipine's was absolutely atrocious, and is now, no suprise, even worse (debatable if it even qualifies as having those services anymore quite frankly). So yes, there was, is and will no doubt continue to be a huge drug abuse problem.
| Tawny wrote: | it isn't a pretty sight. They start taking these drugs, which are cheap, to work longer so they can earn enough to support a family. Addiction soon follows, and it becomes working longer hours, or committing crimes in the neighbourhood, to support that family AND to buy drugs (which aren't so cheap if you are compelled by addiciton to buy them regularly). Who suffers? Other poor people, who become victims of crime, road accidents, bent cops, etc. |
Thats not specific to the Phillipines, that can easily apply to lots drug addicts, in many countries, including ours.
| Tawny wrote: | voted for this dark angel President to rid them of this ultimate, living symbol of poverty, desperation and suffering |
He's not addressed poverty, desperation or suffering - he's simply made it open season to kill anyone already desperate and suffering on the premise that it was all about drugs. The reason such huge numbers of people were addicted to drugs in the first place was because for many the living/work/healthcare conditions are so dismal they turned to drugs for relief. But hey, if you're the government responsible for all that, great way to pass the buck I suppose  . |
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| Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 10:40 - 16 Dec 2016 Post subject: |
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| -Matt- wrote: | drug rehabilitation system |
I imagine that having a gun pointed at your head and offered the choice of quitting, or of having your brains blown out, would provide a clarifying moment.
If you make the choice to continue with your behaviour under those circumstances, I can't think what possible method of voluntary rehab could succeed.
| -Matt- wrote: | if you're the government responsible for all that, great way to pass the buck I suppose . |
I think we tend to over-estimate the influence that government has over a nation.
Yes, if it's a true despotism running a real police state. Yes, long term it can destroy the self reliant character of a nation via a welfare state, helped by open borders. But day-to-day, people will do what people want to do. People, by and large, tend to deserve the quality of representatives that they have.
And if you blame a tiny group of people for the woes and behaviour of the teeming masses, and demand that they take action to alter it, you shouldn't be surprised if that action is radical, and not to your liking.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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pepperami
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G
The Voice of Reason
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Rogerborg
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| Posted: 11:54 - 16 Dec 2016 Post subject: |
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| G wrote: | I'm sure plenty have had it made clear that if they continue with the behaviour they are addicted to they will die from it; yet that hasn't been enough, it's required a more, ah, 'scientific' approach to change their behaviour. |
Dying at some unspecified point in the future by overdosing on what you like is one thing.
Being shot in the eye stone cold sober in the imminent future is another.
My point is that all treatment is predicted on the user choosing to get clean, and that staying clean (especially when intoxicants are readily available) also requires an ongoing commitment from them.
If they choose to keep using in the face of an extant threat to their life, then it's a waste of limited resources even trying to help them. I stress the limited factor - with infinite time, labour and facilities, anything works.
Think of it as a robust form of triage.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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The Voice of Reason
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Rogerborg
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Posted: 12:37 - 16 Dec 2016  Post subject: |
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Of course treatment should be on offer. And I'm actually in favour of complete decriminalisation.
The specific issue is this though. Consider someone carrying out a prohibited activity, whether that's taking illegal drugs, or doing bad stuff after taking legal drugs, or in order to fund them.
If you cannot stop that behaviour by credibly threatening to shoot them in the head, then you might as well go ahead and pull the trigger.
It's a litmus test. Do they care enough to keep living? If they don't, then only bad things will follow, for them and everyone around them.
We're far too precious about the sanctity of life. It's not like the world is under-populated.
____________________
Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 7 years, 131 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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