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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 18:41 - 20 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
BMW [...] 800 parallel twin

Which is boring.

Then Husqvarna got their hands on it and transformed it, working some witchcraft with the crank and balancer to force some character into it.

I wouldn't write KTM's twins off just yet.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 18:50 - 20 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

If anyone could make a good parallel twin, I would've said it would be KTM. No idea if this one will be any good though. Looks wise, it's a big fat Thumbs Down from me though. This could be forgiven if it turned out to be a proper looney bike, but yeah, you have to wonder with that twin power plant. Can parallels not be tuned (cams, timing, electronics etc) to be interesting?

Only 4T parallel twin I've had was a 400 Wetdream - gahhh!

Beaten to it by Rogerborg.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 19:26 - 20 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
Well, there's your issue! Wink Think that was what I was getting to - boring bikes are boring regardless. Fun bikes are fun, if they're powerbandy 2 strokes Razz.
And what v-twins have you ridden to compare?

Your bike seems to have a similar weight to my 675, but with under half the power. Slower steering too, I suspect!
(Ok, that's not an entirely fair comparison.)

Does the engine not play a big part of how fun the bike is? And you need to ride one, you steer with telepathy.

P.S. This Wink
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/564x/91/73/28/917328004062979037285897100502a7.jpg
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G
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PostPosted: 19:32 - 20 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:

Does the engine not play a big part of how fun the bike is?

Yes indeed - and my point all along has been that regardless of the configuration, if the engine is designed to be a boring, it will be.
There are more parallel twin commuters, so you're more likely to experience a boring example.
As it goes, it's a lot harder to make a 4 stroke twin (of any kind) be what I'd typically describe as 'interesting'.

Though, on supermotos to some degree it's the boring nature of the engine that allows you to have fun elsewhere - linear delivery makes wheelies and sliding about easier.

Oh and yes - I can see why you find anything tassle-less boring! Smile
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 20:03 - 20 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with G mostly except I have a lower fun bike threshold than he does. Glad he did the Teffing for you too.

I don't get the people who just have a closed mind view of thinking all in line twin engines are boring. Its a prejudice and long standing myth. Some IL4's or V-twins are much more boring than parallel twins too.

I don't get either how the people think that reckon a V-twin engine is cool and characterful, while an in line twin is eminently boring? Where is your science?

As Borg said, you can change the character of any engine quite radically like Husqvarna did to the F800 engine.

Also whilst all engine layouts are compromised or the machines they are fitted to are because of that layout, I find V-twins generally are quite a poor compromise packaging wise, and for balancing wheelbase, suspension layout, and geometry, not to mention exhaust routing. A V4 is similarly compromised and in some cases is even worse for some packaging vs space, vs benefits of having a narrower engine.

Your V-twins can have massively different characters depending on the usual things like bore/stroke, compression ratios, and the mass of the rotating parts. But not only that there is V-angles, balance shaft placement, single crank pin or dual crank pin, etc etc.

An in-line twin can have many different firing orders, and can be made to feel and run like just about any design or layout of V-twin engine. The only thing that is sometimes different is that having a wider crank, you can get more or a different level of vibration from the rocking effect, that might not be present on a V-design.

Back to singles, I do like them and they can be very full on focused and fun, but as I said big singles for a road bike are often not the best idea. You can have an 800cc single, but it doesn't mean it'll be any good as a smooth responsive road engine.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 21:15 - 20 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevo as b4 wrote:
I don't get the people who just have a closed mind view of thinking all in line twin engines are boring. Its a prejudice and long standing myth. Some IL4's or V-twins are much more boring than parallel twins too.

The ones I've ridden have been boring, people who have experienced a lot more bikes find them boring. I know it's MCN but look what they wrote about the Husky: the big parallel twin-cylinder engine isn’t as exciting, or as involving as an equivalent V-twin.
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G
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PostPosted: 21:24 - 20 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:

The ones I've ridden have been boring, people who have experienced a lot more bikes find them boring. I know it's MCN but look what they wrote about the Husky: the big parallel twin-cylinder engine isn’t as exciting, or as involving as an equivalent V-twin.

And someone comments...
Quote:

I just want to make a comment on the statement above "the big parallel twin-cylinder engine isn’t as exciting, or as involving as an equivalent V-twin". What absolute guff! Having come from "an equivalent V twin" I can assure you the Nuda is every bit as involving and exciting!

Again ... I'd say all 4 stroke twins are on the boring end.
V or parallel doesn't change the engine character.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 21:48 - 20 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd *much* rather ride a Nuda 900 than, say, a Hornet or a Harley, if we're taking a token representative for il4's and V-Twin's. This is despite a certain vlogger's ownership of one.

Everyone has a perception of what's "fun", and it won't match up with anyone else's, most Harley's bore the tits off me (yes, I've ridden several), but others love the thump and torque above all else. If I wanted a cruiser, I'd get a Rocket 3, they're fun.

My idea of fun is a screaming, tuned 2 stroke single. I'd rather hoon about on a tuned KX500 all day long above all else, but there are a lot of practical reasons that's fucking stupid idea. Not least of which is that my license would wing it's way south on a Swansea holiday again.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 21:57 - 20 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:

Again ... I'd say all 4 stroke twins are on the boring end.


Sad And there was me considering trading the Striple for a V2 Tuono.
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G
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PostPosted: 22:22 - 20 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:

Sad And there was me considering trading the Striple for a V2 Tuono.

Some people seem to find that sort of bike great.

I'm not one of them - but then if it's any smoother or more linear delivery than a 5EB I'm liable to shout 'boring' Smile.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 22:40 - 20 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
but then if it's any smoother or more linear delivery than a 5EB I'm liable to shout 'boring' Smile.


Thinking Are you saying, then, that for the vast majority of people, it's not worth paying much attention to your views? Razz

Some of us have indeed been spoiled by 2Ts that give explosive acceleration in a very short burst, and it's hard to find something to replace that afterwards. For some of us, that's probably just as well Laughing
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G
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PostPosted: 23:08 - 20 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you find twins exciting AND have ridden peaky 2 strokes, then my views probably won't help you select a bike Smile.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 23:10 - 20 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThatDippyTwat wrote:
I'd *much* rather ride a Nuda 900 [...] despite a certain vlogger's ownership of one.

Oh, are people still doing that "too cool for school" thing? How quaint.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 23:11 - 20 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think alot of G's views really boil down to power/weight ratio more than having 2, 3 or four cylinders.
If a 120bhp+ V-twin litre bike weighs say 170kg, then it's going to be fairly mental IMO especially if the chassis spec is high and the geometry pretty steep.

Remember there are alot of people that just don't like the feel and character of a triple engine, yet it's regarded by some as the perfect road going engine configuration.

I know of people that are used to much bigger bikes, that have ridden a modern Blade or GSXR1000, and found them to be very peaky, revvy and having little low-midrange shove compared to the bikes they are used to.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 23:17 - 20 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
ThatDippyTwat wrote:
I'd *much* rather ride a Nuda 900 [...] despite a certain vlogger's ownership of one.

Oh, are people still doing that "too cool for school" thing? How quaint.


No, I dislike the impression I get of him, and as such, he doesn't feature in my liking of the bike. Anyone who actually knows me will happily tell you that I couldn't give two fucks about "cool".
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G
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PostPosted: 23:22 - 20 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevo as b4 wrote:
I think alot of G's views really boil down to power/weight ratio more

I think you think wrong Wink.

My favourite bike for the engine is still the KTM 200 - massively down on power to weight.
Ah, you may say; but it's about low power to weight. I would then point to something like the BMW R100RT rat-fighter I had. Probably similar power to weight, but a boring engine and nasty handling etc.

My 675 was 165kg on the scales with some fuel in it. Power would have been 110-120hp at a guess.
The engine didn't feel particularly exciting, but for the porpose of track riding, I liked it requiring a bit less work - at least as far as not needing to change the gearing per track to get the best out of it.

I would suggest that people riding a modern blade that finds it to be picky is either a) an idiot or b) in way too high a gear.
Gear for gear they have more midrange than pretty much any bike; certainly up to that cc.
However compare one in top gear to some big faggy cruiser in top gear and possibly it'll feel a bit slow - as likely it'll be geared twice as high or something.
Ride the Blade in first gear to the cruiser in top gear and it'll be a rather different matter.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 23:29 - 20 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
If you find twins exciting AND have ridden peaky 2 strokes, then my views probably won't help you select a bike Smile.


Well, I don't actually know about twins. Wetdream, and yes, one of those pesky SVs aside, 2Ts are the only other twins I've ridden. So I've not had great experiences with them myself, but I'd be delighted to find something like this KTM can deliver fun factor - on road for me though. But then again, maybe I'm getting a bit old for all that looney tunes stuff. To be fair, I'm glad I don't have your fun threshold nowadays. The mind is willing but... Laughing
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G
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PostPosted: 23:47 - 20 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Engine character is nice, but it's not the only fun factor in riding for me.

These are my bikes I've recently been enjoying riding:
675 - fairly flat power delivery, but on track I don't mind so much (you should always be in the top of the rev range anyway).
Jawa 500 884 - 60hp single on Methanol. Think it's pretty linear delivery. Which is good when traction is low and you don't have brakes.
Polini 40cc 2 stroke - 2x 6.2hp and 8.5hp or so. Clutch set to come in at around half revs, so you don't really notice it being peaky. The 6.2hp one with the clutch coming in early is annoying - with direct drive and one gear with an automatic clutch, you're limited with a peaky delivery.

None with engines I'd describe as fun.
And as I've mentioned in relation to supermotos - possibly a linear/boring engine may make something like this more fun by making it easier to do fun-riding.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 00:29 - 21 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think in just pure engine terms we all find different things interesting and fun. For example I think a powerful 125 2stroke is about the most fun engine for hooning around quiet twisty back lanes, especially in an SM bike.

Some IL4's and big twins are fun to me, and I'd get some satisfaction out of a tweaked GPZ500 or CB500 too. I've not tried everything and want to try the joy of in line six at some point too!

On four wheels I really like big turbo diesel engines with lots of in gear low down shove and a short rev range. However the turbo petrol engine in my car isn't so fun, as it's laggy and I don't like waiting until half way through the Rev range for a sudden shove in the back. I end up short shifting to avoid the drama and traction breaking sudden torque, which then makes it feel slow and sedate. I find throttle response in turbo petrol engines especially older indirect injection traditional engines to be crap and mushy compared to diesels too.

Oh and the bloke I know who was the idiot with his view of peaky litre bikes, wasn't used to big cruiser faggot machines, but CBR1100XX's and a ZZR 1400. He said though they were much lighter and more nimble, he was prepared to give up light weight to keep his low end torque and shove without needing to bother the gearbox as much.

Im more impressed with big 1300-1800cc cruiser bikes than I am with mid size KTM supermoto bikes like the 450/525 etc, as I saw an 1800 Suzuki chrome cruiser destroy one from say 15-40/50mph on a busy ring road.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 00:55 - 21 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
And as I've mentioned in relation to supermotos - possibly a linear/boring engine may make something like this more fun by making it easier to do fun-riding.

How is a big thumper boring? Confused With supermotos I think it's the (lack of) weight that creates the fun factor, a lesson for people endlessly chasing horsepower.
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G
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PostPosted: 01:02 - 21 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Missing out a bit, but not too massively on the S1000RR and the CBR has a good bit more midrange.
Adjusted for gearing/speed:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/18968307/pics/somestuff/hyperbikeadjustedforspeed.jpg

As a comparison between that and the Honda:
https://www.motorcycle-usa.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/07/15_Superbike-Horsepower.jpg

If anything, the Honda will have similar mid-range to the big bikes, but be missing on the top!
(Though appreciated different machines on different days.)
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 09:39 - 21 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

ThatDippyTwat wrote:
Anyone who actually knows me will happily tell you that I couldn't give two fucks about "cool".

Except for the impression that random strangers form of you online.
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G
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PostPosted: 09:45 - 21 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

M.C wrote:

How is a big thumper boring? Confused With supermotos I think it's the (lack of) weight that creates the fun factor, a lesson for people endlessly chasing horsepower.

For the most part, linear delivery.
As ever with low powered engines, you do need to rev them to make decent, but that they don't massively change character between low and high revs (in sound, delivery, etc) can mean they don't particularly 'encourage' you to rev it that bit more, go that bit faster.

And yes - for supermotos lack of weight (which is why I'll oft' criticise 'supermotos' that weigh more than a sports bike with twice the power) and high centre of gravity that sees wheels more likely to leave tarmac.
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UnknownStuntm...
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PostPosted: 10:01 - 21 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

So many armchairs.

So many experts.

Nobody has actually ridden one yet though. Rolling Eyes
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G
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PostPosted: 10:23 - 21 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

UnknownStuntman wrote:


Nobody has actually ridden one yet though. Rolling Eyes

Your expert opinion duly noted!
Wink
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