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Street Triple Launch 10.01.2017

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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 23:59 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will they really keep the Speed on, alongside a larger Striple, d'ya think? I mean, in its current guise?
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Pigeon
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PostPosted: 00:06 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Will they really keep the Speed on, alongside a larger Striple, d'ya think? I mean, in its current guise?



If it sells, sure. Ones a little scamp that loves a B-Road. The other is a semi-muscle bike that's more suited to A-roads.

Street is based on supersport platform, so I think its a different audience. As long as either is selling, and don't require bucket loads of R&D money to improve.


But everything I think will happen is usually the 100% opposite of what actually happens Smile
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Alex A
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PostPosted: 00:09 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

chickenstrip wrote:
Will they really keep the Speed on, alongside a larger Striple, d'ya think? I mean, in its current guise?


I doubt it's going anywhere anytime soon. They made the effort to overhaul it and make it EURO4 compliant last year. They need to redeem that investment, and will sell it so long as the sales numbers make it worthwhile. Also:

- It's physically much bigger than the Street. Some people like that.
- It still has almost 300cc on the Street, which means it offers much more torque, and doesn't need to be worked hard. Some people like that.
- It has a single sided swingarm. Some people like that.
- It's a very long standing model for Hinckley Triumph - much longer than the Street. I can't see Triumph culling it before EURO5 (2020?) at the earliest, and probably not then.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 00:14 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is the real definitive reason for the bigger engine though?

1, has everyone become rich enough to pay much more for insurance for bigger bikes?

2, has insurance prices got lower so the bigger bikes are more attractive?

3, is it the fact that revvy powerful for the size 600's have got to focused and too much like hard work in modern times, and that people have generally got lazy and want easy to use big midrange shove, like everyone seems to want with cars now.

Many people like the way modern diesel cars drive, and it's got to the point where you'll struggle to sell a new petrol car now that's not got a turbo, as it's apparently too hard or too much like hard work to drive a Nasp engined vehicle now?

Maybe the same thinking has become the norm for bike owners, and to get an easy ride and good real world power delivery, everyone is going +size on engine capacity to make easy lazy riding less effort?
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 00:18 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alex A wrote:
chickenstrip wrote:
Will they really keep the Speed on, alongside a larger Striple, d'ya think? I mean, in its current guise?


I doubt it's going anywhere anytime soon. They made the effort to overhaul it and make it EURO4 compliant last year. They need to redeem that investment, and will sell it so long as the sales numbers make it worthwhile. Also:

- It's physically much bigger than the Street. Some people like that.
- It still has almost 300cc on the Street, which means it offers much more torque, and doesn't NEED to be worked hard. Some people like that.
- It has a single sided swingarm. Some people like that.
- It's a very long standing model for Hinckley Triumph - much longer than the Street. I can't see Triumph culling it before EURO5 (2020?) at the earliest, and probably not then.


You talking to me? Laughing

Old Fazer 1000 still has more power, more torque Mr. Green
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Alex A
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PostPosted: 00:21 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevo as b4 wrote:
What is the real definitive reason for the bigger engine though?


Two reasons IMO:

1) They've discontinued the Daytona supersport model, which used to share an engine and chassis platform with the Street. If there's no more Daytona, and the chassis can accomodate a slightly bigger engine without any weight gain, why stick with the race regulation capacity? There's no replacement for displacement.

2) They apparently wanted to offer a bit more performance. 106bhp (old R) to 123bhp (new RS) is a very useful increment for a 90cc capacity hike. Especially with EURO4 compliance.

Peak power is at 11,700 RPM, which is the same as the 675. That's not exactly lazy is it? EURO4 compliance is also likely to negate much of the added low-down grunt offered by the capacity hike.

I suspect the power delivery of the 765 will be much the same as the 675 model, with a bit more of everything.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 01:01 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it's win win then, except for the slight blunting of performance and low down shove to meet Euro 4 then?

The above could almost certainly be eliminated with a non road legal de-cat pipe and loud silencer and some richer non cat friendly fuel mapping, maybe with a more aggressive ignition advance curve too?

So why do some moan about a bigger engine possibly making the bike less fun/nimble/agile then?

Or is it a case of if the bike moves towards 800cc that it puts it closer to the litre performance naked bike market both on price and power, so those people would rather shell out the extra for a Tuono etc, than have an 800cc halfway house compromise?
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Alex A
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PostPosted: 01:30 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevo as b4 wrote:
So it's win win then, except for the slight blunting of performance and low down shove to meet Euro 4 then?


Depends how well it's been engineered. Difficult to say for sure until it's been Dyno and road tested side by side with the old model.

Quote:
The above could almost certainly be eliminated with a non road legal de-cat pipe and loud silencer and some richer non cat friendly fuel mapping, maybe with a more aggressive ignition advance curve too?


Almost certainly.

Quote:
So why do some moan about a bigger engine possibly making the bike less fun/nimble/agile then?


I expected that more capacity + EURO4 would result in a substantially heavier bike. According to Triumph, it's actually lighter than the old model. That doesn't mean it will handle the same as the old one, but since the chassis looks to be subtly improved, and it's lighter overall, then I'm optimistic. Again, time will tell.

Quote:
Or is it a case of if the bike moves towards 800cc that it puts it closer to the litre performance naked bike market both on price and power, so those people would rather shell out the extra for a Tuono etc, than have an 800cc halfway house compromise?


I think there's too much of a focus on the capacity figure. There's still a 40-60bhp peak power deficit to the leading superbike-derived naked bikes. It's not nearly in the same class.


Last edited by Alex A on 02:04 - 12 Jan 2017; edited 2 times in total
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owl
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PostPosted: 01:33 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

In case you missed it, or just ignoring it

vice wrote:
Alex A wrote:


This isn't a 1000cc+ twin. It really doesn't need a slipper clutch, or a blip. Bang it down, release the clutch (progressively or abruptly as required), and use the engine braking. You'd have to really abuse it to break traction. Or clutchless shift. It's not as smooth as a quickshifter/auto-blipper, but it's really quite slick on the 675.


Oh wow, look at that, both R and RS have slip assist...

Also I took your shitty advice as I thought I may be being over cautious and under estimating the bikes ability, banged it down a gear without a blip, released clutch fairly slowly and guess what? Back wheel jumped, real fucking surprise!

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Alex A
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PostPosted: 01:51 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I didn't miss it. But what do you want me to say? Were the surface conditions particularly poor? Do you like to bury it into the redline when you shift down? Are you particularly light? Have you cocked up the suspension settings?

If none of the above, then my experience with the 2010 STR (including riding the bike very enthusiastically over Winter) doesn't tally with yours, whatsoever. I haven't once bothered to blip the throttle on the STR, and the rear wheel has never broken traction on downshift (or felt like it might). So, IMO it doesn't need one. I suspect that the addition of one on the 765 R and RS is as much to do with marketing as it is a requirement. YMMV.
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owl
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PostPosted: 08:40 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The shitty advice bit was more of a statement than a question. I'll continue blip on downshifts to match revs unless there's a slipper as I did before, but thanks anyway.

I just wanted to hear your invaluable opinion on the slip assist that Triumph decided to add to a bike that so obviously didn't need it Rolling Eyes
yeah thought as much, obviously just marketing for sure, obviously not a requirement for some riders at all Thumbs Up
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tricolorsuper...
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PostPosted: 12:09 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Re: Street Triple Launch 10.01.2017 Reply with quote

vice wrote:


Here is a look at the dash in full color. its a 5" TFT Screen with different layouts. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uJ-yASpEOD8[/url]
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andys675
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PostPosted: 15:41 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevo as b4 wrote:
What is the real definitive reason for the bigger engine though?


euro 4, half as noisy as they are now and the exhaust must be made to be still as efficient in 20 years time so the noise won't increase as the engine wears or the exhaust ages.

more silencing= less power so add CC, same as Ducati have done with their 821 now sporting 939cc's, same engine in euro 4 guise
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 19:02 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Final question from me then.

I get that the sweet balance of handling, nimble feel and chuckability, along with a reasonable amount of performance from an interesting perky engine is the Triumph's secret of its success, and how that's made it the darling of the middle weight naked market.

It sounds like a nice recipe for fun, real world usability and engagement too.

So what is the reason of existence for the 160bhp+ litre naked bikes, and what can they offer a rider for considerably more cash, or do massively better than the Triumph?

Are they as good to ride as the Triumph and do they offer as much fun for most of the time?

Or is it that there is just a market out there for them for people with money who want them even though they are not the sharpest tools in the box? A bit like that there is a decent market for 400bhp Range Rover's, even though 400bhp and 2.5ton of high centre of gravity SUV are not the ideal or most efficient combination?
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G
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PostPosted: 19:05 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bigger engine will mean less effort needed changing gears - more leaving it in 6th and still accelerating hard.

For many that ability is valuable over ultra sharp handling.
Some may prefer a bit bigger feeling bike too.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 19:20 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

But if say a Tuono V4 with its 40-50bhp more than the Street triple, could not even hope to hang on to one through the corners or on a tight track, then would it still be a good bike?

I guess what I'm getting at in a way is how much power is deemed worthwhile in a naked bike before it gets pointless and not worth having? I know naked bikes are the new Fireblade of these times in popularity, but if there was say a 185bhp naked litre bike, would it actually be any good or just a pointless irrelevance?

And if it were, would there still be a decent number of would be owners that like or don't mind having a pointless bike?

A 400bhp Range Rover sport seems idiotic and pointless to me, as big weight, poor handling and masses of power are a pretty crap combination IMO. Are the big naked bikes like this to a degree, but seen as a status symbol to own?
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Bozzy
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PostPosted: 21:21 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well mine's plenty quick enough to 100 with its measly 107bhp. Anything over that and it feels like my head is about to be torn off so moar powweeerr wouldn't be a benefit to me! Cool
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G
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PostPosted: 22:26 - 12 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevo as b4 wrote:
But if say a Tuono V4 with its 40-50bhp more than the Street triple, could not even hope to hang on to one through the corners or on a tight track, then would it still be a good bike?

To start with, the faster rider will probably go faster around the corner.
Then, quite possibly the slower rider on the faster bike may find the better midrange lets them get away with being in the wrong gear or getting on the power later.
However the rider on the slower bike may find they can get on the power earlier without it being scary, so does that more.
I think in average hands the cornering ability of the two will probably be close enough. It may even be that the V4 is less good for a pro rider because it's softer, but that may work better for a less experienced rider.

Again, it may not be the 180hp of this naked bike someone likes, but that you can be in 6th gear in top gear (presumably geared lowered than a sports bike) and still have maybe 80-90hp at 70mph.
For me it's the 'lazy' aspect that appeals for litre bikes on the road and the reason I bought the GSXR. (The ZX9R I thought I'd enjoy lots of power, but ended rather 'meh' about that.)
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 03:21 - 13 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevo as b4 wrote:
But if say a Tuono V4 with its 40-50bhp more than the Street triple, could not even hope to hang on to one through the corners or on a tight track, then would it still be a good bike?



There is only one criteria in deciding what is a good bike (competition aside). Do you enjoy riding it?

Imho, of course.
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recman
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PostPosted: 08:12 - 13 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally like the look of the new Street. I wasn't too keen on the headlights on the previous offering but I think the latest has more of an old fashioned flying goggles look.
I don't need more power tbh, the MT10 was ridiculously ridiculous and on the one or two occasions where I was able to open it up, I only did so briefly. 99% of the time I rode it like my current bike.
675 is probably my level, it would still be my level even if I had upgraded to a 1000 from a 125 I think.
I often ride around in 6th at lower speeds and while I don't doubt a 1000 would be quick to pull away, mine is enough for me.
The larger engine in the new Street might make me raise my game a bit but I doubt it.
Not been able to get a close up in the flesh yet but I'm fairly sure I'll like it.
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Matt B
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PostPosted: 10:45 - 13 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevo as b4 wrote:
So what is the reason of existence for the 160bhp+ litre naked bikes, and what can they offer a rider for considerably more cash, or do massively better than the Triumph?


Forget the bhp, people get far too wrapped up in that as a measure of a bike. What they offer is torque, bags and bags of it.

New Striple 57 ft-lb compared to something like the BMW S1000R that pushes out 83 ft-lb. Depends on how it is delivered but that big push from low down is what makes the difference. Just roll on the throttle and go without the need to bang it down through the box and scream the nuts off it. I'm spoilt because I'm used to something that kicks out 100 ft-lb but for me it's what makes a bike.
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G
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PostPosted: 13:42 - 13 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Matt B wrote:

Forget the bhp, people get far too wrapped up in that as a measure of a bike. What they offer is torque, bags and bags of it.

Usual answer...
How'd you like to buy my bike that has 150ft-lb of torque then. Only, lets say, £1500?

Ok, I'm just going to stick my 18v impact wrench in a push bike.
Problem is that it only produces that torque at very low rpm.
High torque x low rpm = low power.
Which then means low gearing, which removes the flexibility

Range of power is more what I believe you're discussing - something like the new latest big Ducatis are actually quite lacking in midrange despite over 100ft-lb, while the CBR1000RR with 3/4 that actually has a good bit of midrange relatively I believe.
(The shape of the Ducati's power graph is quite similar to an Aprilia RS250 2 stroke.)
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 14:12 - 13 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had a bike once with 48ibft and used a V-twin 1000cc for a while after that had maybe 65-70ibft. Both were powerful enough for me, had enough drive and would go fast, and way faster than my usual up to 80/85mph max riding style I've always had. The bike with 48ibft was quicker at the top end however, and is the only road bike in the last 18years I've gone over 100mph on. Matt B has one I think too.

But though people saying they like what they like is their justification for all sorts of things, I'm struggling a bit to see what's definitively good and worth praising, and what's not to an extent.

Alex A, has made a great case for the new Triumph STR to be a really good naked bike, if a fun/nimble and sharp/ light machine with just enough and a bit more performance is what your after. It sounds logical and reasonable to me too.

There's some moaning about the Triumph only being an 800cc or indeed because of it being bigger than before. Yet new Euro laws aside it seems that it can only be a better bike than the last one?

I guess if I was after a great handling modern naked bike that's a bucket of fun, I'd like one myself too.

But seeing as it's much cheaper than the litre nakeds like the Tuono with massively more power and torque, and probably no better handling at best, I just wondered if these big bikes are as good? Or more or less important and relevant compared to a bike like the Triumph?

Say Matt B likes naked bikes with over 100ibft, and Chickenstrip liking 160-180bhp naked bikes, how many others think that way, compared to the tick nearly all the box's for most people Triumph? How many of the above people wanting these quite specific but not necessarily better requirements does it take for manufacturers to start building and selling them?

Or are they in an automatic arms race to make naked superbikes to chase each others machinery, irrespective of how many people out there want them or want to pay for them.

Someone on here said they see no point in a naked bike at all if you can have the same kind of bike with a fairing instead. I don't fully agree with that, and I'm not actually against big power naked bikes as specials or one off owner builds for fun etc. But is there a big market in the UK in 2017 for naked versions of litre sports bikes like the Aprilia or BMW 1000's, and do they sell anything like as well as the sportsbike versions?

I do still struggle a bit to understand who is buying these bikes new and why they want them, and what they are so good for compared to both the superbike versions and the ideal compromise sports nakeds like the Street.
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chickenstrip
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PostPosted: 15:17 - 13 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

stevo as b4 wrote:


Say Matt B likes naked bikes with over 100ibft, and Chickenstrip liking 160-180bhp naked bikes


What I like is great big dollops of shove where I can utilise it on the road. I'll leave the technical arguments about torque and power to others, but it seems to me you need quite a bit of both and suitable gearing to get that.
My old turbo had that. The Fazer has it. I'd have more too, if I could afford it. In fact, I'm beginning to think more and more that the MT10 would be the next logical step for me, ugly though I think it is, although I think I'm slowly getting used to the look (the Fazer also has many everyday practical aspects I'd be sorry to lose though).

stevo as b4 wrote:
Or are they in an automatic arms race to make naked superbikes to chase each others machinery, irrespective of how many people out there want them or want to pay for them.


Haven't they always been? It's called competition, and is what drives innovation.

stevo as b4 wrote:
Someone on here said they see no point in a naked bike at all if you can have the same kind of bike with a fairing instead.


Yeah, naked isn't the right word for me. Another reason I love the Fazer I suppose. It has a fairly effective fairing, but also much of the character, looks-wise, of a naked. Jeez, why hasn't everyone got a Fazer thou? Laughing
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Matt B
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PostPosted: 16:56 - 13 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
big Ducatis are actually quite lacking in midrange despite over 100ft-lb


The 1299 Panigale doesn't have a very flat torque curve no, but where the nakeds are concerned they don't tend to be set up to produce their power in that way. The S1000R for example has a pretty flat torque curve, producing around 60 ft-lb at 3.5k.
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