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Bordtea This post is not being displayed because it has a low rating (Redundant). Unhide this post / all posts.

CaNsA
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PostPosted: 00:34 - 24 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll wait and see what Borg and Arry say about this.
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Going
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PostPosted: 02:35 - 24 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on Brit Exit.

This will mean that half the stuff in my garage will now have to have insurance for just rusting there.

On a off topic but could some how be related, just because. Where's the euro court saying you don't need all internet activity because terrorism to the gov.
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ThatDippyTwat
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PostPosted: 07:47 - 24 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Going wrote:
On a off topic but could some how be related, just because. Where's the euro court saying you don't need all internet activity because terrorism to the gov.


https://arstechnica.co.uk/tech-policy/2016/12/investigatory-powers-law-setback-blanket-data-slurp-illegal-top-eu-court/

There is, and always will be, good, solid arguments for both sides of the argument.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 08:00 - 24 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe there's already an exemption for UK motorsport. Haven't really looked into it much as everyone's gone balls deep to "think of the children" mode.
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G
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PostPosted: 09:38 - 24 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just three posts below this one:
https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=317347

This post here was all good until we got to 'petition'. Really?
How about you start by writing to your MP to express your opinion?

Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote:
I believe there's already an exemption for UK motorsport. Haven't really looked into it much as everyone's gone balls deep to "think of the children" mode.

There isn't that I'm aware of so far.
There isn't even an exception for dodgems that I can see, as they're a motorised vehicle!
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 09:47 - 24 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
Just three posts below this one:
https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=317347

This post here was all good until we got to 'petition'. Really?
How about you start by writing to your MP to express your opinion?

Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote:
I believe there's already an exemption for UK motorsport. Haven't really looked into it much as everyone's gone balls deep to "think of the children" mode.

There isn't that I'm aware of so far.
There isn't even an exception for dodgems that I can see, as they're a motorised vehicle!


Skip to page 19

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/579383/motor-insurance-vnuk-judgement-impact-assessment.pdf

not an exemption I grant you, but they are aware of the impact. I will continue looking, as I'm sure I read somewhere there was proposals to make motorsport exempt.

Originally came about from some guy getting hit by a tractor on a farm or something.

Consultation currently open, respond here:

https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/motor-insurance-consideration-of-the-vnuk-judgment
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G
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PostPosted: 09:55 - 24 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, unfortunately the impact includes:

Quote:
When compulsory competitor-to-competitor third party liability insurance was introduced in Finland it effectively ended grassroots motorsport in the country because this cost became prohibitive for the amateur motorsport enthusiast.

However, for the UK, the cost could be considerably higher as a result of personal injury claims requiring cover and with medical expenses being recoverable


Yes, involved a tractor.
Of course the reality is that many East European countries will likely just ignore this.

Obvious answer seems to be to delay it for 3 years, then ignore it as it'll no longer be our problem hopefully.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 09:56 - 24 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/579377/motor-insurance-vnuk-v-triglav.pdf

Skip to page 29, suggestion 3 would seem to be the most likely (possibly 4 as well).

Also see point 3.11 on page 27. The government isn't at all keen to fuck motorsport within the UK.
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G
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PostPosted: 10:53 - 24 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Suggestion 3 leaves us to the question of what would be included.
Their description doesn't really make it clear - what does traffic constitute and similarly for transport of a person.
And excluding tractors... which was the original cause of the legislation!
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:24 - 24 Dec 2016    Post subject: Re: Help Save UK Motorsport! Reply with quote

Bordtea wrote:
this campaign gives a way forward

Does it?

Bordtea wrote:
so thought it was worth another thread.

Did you?

I do love it when issues that were blindingly obvious years ago to anyone actually paying attention suddenly become a crisis when they hit Facebook.

So, is there a #hashtag I should be Likescribing? Maybe a ribbon that I can add to my avatar(s)?

I might tail on to any petition that's pimped by MotorCycleNews. Absent that, it's a big fat waste of time. Even with that, it's probably a big fat waste of time. It's not like Sharia.gov doesn't already understand the consequences.
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Mawsley
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PostPosted: 11:40 - 24 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Petitions are very useful.

So useful, in fact, that this year we are cooking Xmas lunch entirely through the power of petition. We will be delivering the piece of paper to the oven, bearing the names of all those who wish to eat, and waiting for it to cook our food for us.

If this goes well (as is expected) I am rolling the action out to include petitions to tidy the house, do the ironing and to get more sex. I'm even thinking of petitioning Westland to make them give me a helicopter.

All apart from this petition. This petition is fucking hopeless.
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Bordtea
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PostPosted: 16:15 - 24 Dec 2016    Post subject: Re: Help Save UK Motorsport! Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Bordtea wrote:
this campaign gives a way forward

Does it?

Bordtea wrote:
so thought it was worth another thread.

Did you?

I do love it when issues that were blindingly obvious years ago to anyone actually paying attention suddenly become a crisis when they hit Facebook.

So, is there a #hashtag I should be Likescribing? Maybe a ribbon that I can add to my avatar(s)?

I might tail on to any petition that's pimped by MotorCycleNews. Absent that, it's a big fat waste of time. Even with that, it's probably a big fat waste of time. It's not like Sharia.gov doesn't already understand the consequences.


Seems to provide a much better way forward than all of the doom and gloom crap spouted by various media outlets over the last couple of days that mention the problem but don't suggest doing anything about it.

The campaign is now backed by the ACU. Is that good enough for you Sir holier-than-thou?
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Bordtea
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PostPosted: 16:16 - 24 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:
Just three posts below this one:
https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=317347

This post here was all good until we got to 'petition'. Really?
How about you start by writing to your MP to express your opinion?

Wafer_Thin_Ham wrote:
I believe there's already an exemption for UK motorsport. Haven't really looked into it much as everyone's gone balls deep to "think of the children" mode.

There isn't that I'm aware of so far.
There isn't even an exception for dodgems that I can see, as they're a motorised vehicle!

Have a look at the website. There are currently two buttons. One to sign the petition and one to write to your MP.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 16:36 - 24 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

In simple layman's terms what does this actually and realistically mean for:

1, organised motorsports events on closed private courses/land.

2, the same but on closed off public roads or in public places like forests, parks and arenas/events.

3, paying spectators at private circuits and on private land for such events.

Could insurance for motorsport be negated by not allowing public spectators into any area at risk of injury such as track side stands, or behind barrier tape?

Surely keeping the public away and showing the action on televised screens from a safe location is better than insuring all vehicles for public damage and injury?

What does it mean for rwyb events on the strip, where you used to sign the old motorsports are dangerous disclaimer and the accepted rule of if you crash, you burn, you die?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 23:39 - 24 Dec 2016    Post subject: Re: Help Save UK Motorsport! Reply with quote

Bordtea wrote:
The campaign is now backed by the ACU. Is that good enough for you Sir holier-than-thou?

No, it's not. Go to the Naughty Step and think about what you've done wrong.
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GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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rhys99
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PostPosted: 23:53 - 24 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

So would this mean that if i wanted to ride an Off road bike on my own land, i would need insurance?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:22 - 25 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup.

In its most extreme form, it would mean that all vehicles (which The Man knows about) would need to be insured at all times. Conceivably no more SORN, and no more uninsured "field" or "track" bikes, or cars, or quads or for that matter mini-motor, >250W+ electric bicycles or Segways.

Just one of many gotchas: at what point would insurance become required if it's not when a vehicle is first road registered? First sale? (What distinguishes public from trade?) At customs clearance? Either way, DVLA/DVSA will be gushing their gussets at the prospect of a whole new raft of legislation and the mouse-nudgers required to enforce it.
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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Dimerz
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PostPosted: 01:27 - 28 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why was this marked as spam, I didn't know about this and i think its good that he's spreading the word.
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G
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PostPosted: 06:52 - 28 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dimerz wrote:
Why was this marked as spam, I didn't know about this and i think its good that he's spreading the word.

It wasn't, while the OP seems to be promoting his own site, it was rated as :
Quote:
Thumbs Down This post is Redundant:
Use this reason if you've spotted a post which repeats a recent discussion, or asks a question that is covered in the FAQs forum.

Which seems entirely fair, as it was repeating a recent discussion.
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G
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PostPosted: 07:31 - 28 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bordtea wrote:

Have a look at the website. There are currently two buttons. One to sign the petition and one to write to your MP.

To my mind auto-generated and pre-written generic letter diminish the concept generally - adding a fair to MPs work load for people that don't really care about the issue that much.

Oh sure, it's great when it's *our* issue... but the same are used by so many people it's a bit meaningless now.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 09:31 - 28 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

Worth a read by David Emmett.

https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/racing/european-motorsport-insurance-law-analysis/
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G
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PostPosted: 09:50 - 28 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I suggested above, they don't really offer enough detail to be clear exactly what is covered.

For instance, >>to make it clear that it is only intended to cover vehicles being used for transport purposes on public roads or on areas accessible to the public.<<
What does 'transport purposes' mean? Was a tractor 'doing work' included in this?
What does areas accessible to the public mean?

It seems like these proposals would exclude the exact situation which started the whole thing.
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Wafer_Thin_Ham
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PostPosted: 10:18 - 28 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

G wrote:

It seems like these proposals would exclude the exact situation which started the whole thing.


Yes, you're spot on. If the farm wasn't "accessible to the public" then you're spot on.

In terms of what the other stuff means, I have no idea. Depends on what the lawyers come out with as usual.
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 10:23 - 28 Dec 2016    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's bloody ridiculous isn't it reading that article. My views are:

1, Slovenian farm worker should have sued farmer normally if it was a case of negligence or unsafe working environment. Tractor insurance should never have come into it.

Also the motto here is that if you badly injure someone with your tractor, your car, your bike etc. Then assuming there's no cctv or witnesss, your much better off running over them again to prevent a claim.

2, The whole insure every vehicle that moves in a public or closed organised private event is so stupid, as It might even have the effect of spectators stepping onto race tracks, or people jumping out in front of golf carts to get a bit of claimage in.

Back in the old Group B rally days, when cars used to horrifically fly off the road into the crowd at 120mph, it was in many cases anything but the drivers fault. If your going to place public just feet away from high speed vehicles, with no crash barriers, and not only that, but let them stray onto the track freely, then how would any insurance company take on that risk? It's just bloody insane to let public and spectators within easy striking distance of out control vehicles.

Keeping spectators away from events, or at a very safe distance say where you need TV to show them the action in detail would work much better than insuring everyone who competes in racing or track use.

This law would see an end to passengers in drag cars or on track days, maybe rightly so though?

3, let's say all motorsports had to have insurance, and it helps people to claim for injuries more easily. Firstly motorsports events and participation would decline and many low level affordable classes would fold up and not exist. But then you could get illegal underground events happening with no support, or safety or emergency services etc.

There's also the point of where do you go next to protect the public? I mean should all boat owners and watersports participants also have forced insurance in case they hit a swimmer? What is different that it requires insurance if I hit a swimmer with a jetski or fishing boat, than it is if I hit and injure them with a pedalo or sailing dingy?

What if Silverstone hosts bicycle races instead of car racing when motorsports dry up. I mean should you need insurance to ride a push bike on a private course in case you hit someone?

The whole, motorsports emphasis of the legislation just seems to ignore the real problems and focus on motorised vehicles= danger but everything else will be fine.

No more tractors on the farm in case they hurt someone, well that's just going to encourage more hands on labour intensive work, with probably less health and safety, more dangerous hand operated tools and more people injured as a result of it all. What if I injure a Co worker with a chainsaw, or a rotorvator etc, will I need to insure those next? The perverse thing is that two blokes stood under a tree with a hand saw are far more likely to get killed or injured than a single chainsaw operator who can cut the tree just how he wants to aim it before it falls.
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