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Oldie |
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Oldie Brolly Dolly
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andyscooter |
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andyscooter World Chat Champion
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weasley |
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weasley World Chat Champion
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 11:04 - 30 Dec 2016 Post subject: |
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My main question before jumping in re-arranging things because they seem like a good idea is are they fixing something which is broken?
So are people riding on a CBT the people who are making up the 21% of KSI traffic accidents they state involve motorcyclists?
If they are, fair enough, shake it up. If they aren't, why are they messing?
I'd suggest that if it does turn out to be that people on a CBT are overrepresented in the KSI numbers, surely the solution is to get them up to test standard quickly?
The way to do that is to make it impossible to just sit on a CBT and L-plates for an extended period. When I did my test, a provisional motorcycle licence lasted for 3 years, then it was taken off you and you couldn't reapply for another 12 months. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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M.C |
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M.C Super Spammer
Joined: 29 Sep 2015 Karma :
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Posted: 14:39 - 30 Dec 2016 Post subject: Re: New Learner Proposals |
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Oldie wrote: | This was issued by the DVLA today - stuff like revoking CBT after 6 points (which I had thought they already did). |
Nope. As far as I'm aware even a learners license is limitless in terms of points, BCF says 12 but I know a driving instructor who taught someone to drive with 18 points.
It depends how a revoked CBT would work, if you can re-take it straight away then it'll be a minor inconvenience, and if it remains as difficult as it's now to prove you've completed your CBT course (ie just that bit of paper) it won't be enforced.
stinkwheel wrote: | My main question before jumping in re-arranging things because they seem like a good idea is are they fixing something which is broken?
So are people riding on a CBT the people who are making up the 21% of KSI traffic accidents they state involve motorcyclists?
If they are, fair enough, shake it up. If they aren't, why are they messing?
I'd suggest that if it does turn out to be that people on a CBT are overrepresented in the KSI numbers, surely the solution is to get them up to test standard quickly?
The way to do that is to make it impossible to just sit on a CBT and L-plates for an extended period. When I did my test, a provisional motorcycle licence lasted for 3 years, then it was taken off you and you couldn't reapply for another 12 months. |
That stat gets on my nerves a bit, remove seat belts and crumple zones from cars and they'd have much worse KSI stats. It's an interesting question although one you probably couldn't answer convincingly, as someone riding on a CBT isn't an indication of experience.
Off the top of my head it's young and middle-aged (born again) bikers who kill themselves. I actually agree with the changes they're proposing, the only thing I don't understand is the changes to the CBT. What's being removed, it sounds like the onsite riding? |
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Fizzoid |
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Fizzoid World Chat Champion
Joined: 06 Sep 2016 Karma :
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Karma :
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Posted: 15:15 - 30 Dec 2016 Post subject: |
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It would be nice if just once in a while, our government made regulations based on evidence rather than a monologue prepared by a civil servant consisting of their oppinion of what seems like a good idea.
It's what comes of the governing classes almost exclusively being educated in the arts rather than sciences. A scientist wouldn't dream of handing in an assignment without multiple references. A white paper on the other hand is just an eleborate version of 1,000 words on "What I did in My Summer Holidays.".
The annoying thing is, they don't even need to do any legwork to come up with the numbers, there is a whole government department whose job it is to collate such things and regurgitate them in a consise and valid manner. They just need to ask the office of national statistics "what proportion of KSI motorcycle accidents involve learners?". ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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redeem ouzzer |
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redeem ouzzer World Chat Champion
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Azoth |
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Azoth Brolly Dolly
Joined: 07 Jul 2016 Karma :
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Posted: 16:45 - 30 Dec 2016 Post subject: |
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stinkwheel wrote: | It's what comes of the governing classes almost exclusively being educated in the arts rather than sciences. A scientist wouldn't dream of handing in an assignment without multiple references. |
You have to provide references in the arts as well - the only major difference from science being that you won't get top marks down for coming to conclusions that conflict with the opinions of those in charge. Think of it like BCF's karma system. It matters whether you're right or wrong, but the weighting given to your error is so important that it could actually lead to positive reward.
There's nothing technocratic about the wheels of government and administration, and the involvement of scientists wouldn't necessarily supply definition to policy. In addition, the people who came up with these proposals were actually using a scientific method. Nobody's writing sonnets - they're using Excel and specialist software. Whichever ideology they're using, it may be widely unpopular, but it's undoubtedly based on one of the popular ideologies of management, perhaps project management in particular. In other words, the proposals were most likely put forth by a fast-tracker new from university, who has a maximum 6 months to make his mark on the department before he moves on. His personal performance review and assessment will be based on setting his own goals and tickboxes for his mentor to sign off before he's promoted. His choice of project, his self-assigned goals and measures, etc. He has free rein on all of it. The actual constraints on him are in sensing what would benefit his superiors. If he can make them and their leadership of their department look good, they'll sign him off.
The bottom line is, there are 6 proposals and most will be 'adopted', albeit in a heavily watered-down form. ____________________ Safety in numbers |
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notbike |
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notbike Formerly known as notabikeranymore
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andyscooter |
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andyscooter World Chat Champion
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thepuma |
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thepuma World Chat Champion
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Kickstart |
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Kickstart The Oracle
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M.C |
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M.C Super Spammer
Joined: 29 Sep 2015 Karma :
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Posted: 20:21 - 30 Dec 2016 Post subject: Re: New Learner Proposals |
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stinkwheel wrote: | The annoying thing is, they don't even need to do any legwork to come up with the numbers, there is a whole government department whose job it is to collate such things and regurgitate them in a consise and valid manner. They just need to ask the office of national statistics "what proportion of KSI motorcycle accidents involve learners?". |
Again it depends on your definition of learner. There's definitely a difference in riding style between scooters on L's and other bikes, but then I think a lot of them are actually quite experienced and are just brave stupid.
I think in terms of tightening up the loopholes it's a good idea. If you had 3 or 6 points you might be put off going or your license, when on a provisional you can rack up more points.
Kickstart wrote: | Fizzoid wrote: |
Provisional licences are 12+ points for a ban. I recently confirmed this with the Police & DVLA as I'd gotten into an argument about this on a Farcebook group, and I don't like being told I'm wrong when I know I'm right :p
It's 6 points in the first 12 month of passing a test, CBT isn't a test
Not sure how you'd get 18 and still be driving though. I presume because the ban would have been shorter than the life of the points on your licence, which is 3-4 years isn't it? |
12+ for a ban normally, but it is not 100% automatic and people can avoid a ban despite having more than 12 points.
Passing a test, gaining any points that results in the total being 6 or more points results in the full licence being revoked (not a ban). Hence someone could pass their test while having 9 points on their licence and would be OK, but any points in the next 2 years resulting in a total of 6 or more would result in their full licence being revoked.
All the best
Katy |
Fizzoid how long's the ban? That's what I've been unable to find any reference to. My understanding's the same as Kickstarts - https://www.gov.uk/penalty-points-endorsements/new-drivers
Points on your provisional licence
Any penalty points on your provisional licence that haven’t expired will be carried over to your full licence when you pass your test. However, your licence will be revoked if you get any further penalty points that take you up to a total of 6 or more within 2 years of passing your driving test.
So the 18 point guy was in the same situation, he could pass but anymore points and he would lose his license. As Kickstart says there are exceptions, I worked with someone on 12 who argued he needed his license for work. I don't see why there should be exceptions but there you go. |
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
Joined: 26 Oct 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 23:12 - 30 Dec 2016 Post subject: |
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Huh, one of those secret consultations. It didn't make it to any of the many email addresses that I've used to register interest with DVLA and DVSA shenanigans.
On the face of it, it looks commonsensical enough. Nobody should be tooling around on the roads without passing a theory test (I'm looking at you, pedalists and horsists). Auto CBT gets you an auto entitlement, CBTs can be revoked, and so on. All fair enough.
I mean, if you view a CBT as sort-of-a-license, which we do.
Thing is, these are the conclusion from the previous consultation on training, which concluded that they'd like to do all of this, but Whitehall had told them to sod off, there was no room on the Minister's calendar, let along Westminster's.
If they've made room, then I suspect that it's already a fait accompli, and we can kiss goodbye to buzzing around at 28mph on a moped than getting a sort-of-a-license to ride an 80mph 125.
The interesting part is this very vague statement: "Training courses to upgrade motorcycle licences".
When the 3DLD came in, they knocked that route back in favour of repeated full tests because (I swear) the cost of doing more training. Apparently completely missing that it's essentially impractical to upgrade from A1 to A2 to A without going via a training school to get access to their insured bikes.
An assessed training route to upgrade an existing license rather than doing the exact same performing-seal tests over and over on increasingly more capable bikes is long overdue, and I hope we can all get behind that. ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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stevo as b4 World Chat Champion
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secretagentmo... Scooby Slapper
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 7 years, 117 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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