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TheInternet |
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TheInternet Borekit Bruiser
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Hong Kong Phooey |
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Hong Kong Phooey World Chat Champion
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struan80 |
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struan80 World Chat Champion
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stinkwheel |
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stinkwheel Bovine Proctologist
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Posted: 20:21 - 08 Jan 2017 Post subject: |
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Because you put progressively more and more weight onto the front tyre as you brake, the grip increases proportional to braking. You'll tend not to lock the front until you bottom out the suspension providing you brake progressively and don't snatch at the lever.
Locking the front isn't instadeath as many seem to think. If you're upright and going in a straight line, squealing the front is eminently recoverable by letting off the brake.
Try it somewhere safe and quiet, it's handy to know what it feels like.
Yes there is less grip in the wet so a loss of grip will tend to happen earlier.
I find in most cases a bike will warn you as you're approaching loss of grip by squirming about and making your bumhole tweak. It's when this is coupled with something that makes the suspension suddenly load/unload that the loss of grip becomes abrupt and you're flying through the air/sliding on your arse. This can be either due to rider input (snatchy brake/throttle action, pulling the clutch mid corner etc) or a road feature like a bump in the road or overbanding.
My most recent super squeaky bum moment was on an overtake abort. Braked hard to pull back in and hit a compression in the road that bottomed the forks, locking the front and snapping the bars round. Took a foot dab and a lot of swearing to get it back under control. Ordered new springs as soon as I got home.
I landed up with an oddball rear tyre at one point last year (had to, I'd hit canvas on my old one and it's the only thing they had in stock). It was fine in the dry but first time out in the wet I could feel it squirming under me as I exityed corners so I backed off a bit. At one point I went for an "overtake with extreme prejudice" only to find it spinning the rear wheel up instead of accelerating. Not good. Again, changed the tyre as soon as I got home. The bike did however let me know I was pushing the limits of grip. As a general rule, if you're in a straight line, you get away with it. ____________________ “Rule one: Always stick around for one more drink. That's when things happen. That's when you find out everything you want to know.”
I did the 2010 Round Britain Rally on my 350 Bullet. 89 landmarks, 3 months, 9,500 miles. |
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TheInternet |
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TheInternet Borekit Bruiser
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M.C |
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M.C Super Spammer
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Posted: 02:01 - 09 Jan 2017 Post subject: |
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Go watch Moto GP and you'll see that going over the limit results in sliding down the road on your face Therefore I tend to stay under it. Bikes are pretty good at giving you an indication of grip levels anyway, hey give you a lot more feedback than cars IMO.
With the front brake as long as you're not grabbing fist fulls straight away you're fine. |
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CaNsA |
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CaNsA Super Spammer
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mentalboy |
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mentalboy World Chat Champion
Joined: 05 May 2012 Karma :
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Posted: 06:05 - 09 Jan 2017 Post subject: |
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TheInternet wrote: | Thanks for the replies, helpful.
Just to be clear this is not so I can be on the ragged edge every ride, it's to have a clue where I am on the scale. At the moment it's not obvious if I'm at one, four, or nine tenths of the limit; it's more this:
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You've been a member of the forum for 6 years but are asking the sort of questions we'd expect from either a non-biking student looking for thesis material or from a 16 year old with no previous experience.
To satisfy your questionnaire:
1) If you have fixed pegs they'll be scraping the ground, if not and your pegs are lifting up then you're pretty close to the limit!!!
Alternatively if your rear end starts breaking out that's a pretty good indication!!!
You could always keep an eye on your 'chicken strips' - centreline wear only = pussy, one inch strips either side of the tread edge = tame, wear all the way across = you're the boss at this cornering lark, wearing out the brand name on the sidewall = you've got issues!!
2)If you really can't decide whether cornering limits are the same in wet or dry weather I'd recommend giving up your licence and sticking to public transport.
You could think about it for 3 seconds, starting with wondering why braking limits might be different in the wet (something you should have covered in kindergarten bike school) and use rational thought processes to come to a conclusion.
3) How long is a piece of string?
Front break out whilst cornering hard will quite likely result in a slide. If you hit slippery stuff, debris or are facing a rapidly oncoming obstacle it'll take experience to stay upright. Unlike Stinkwheel's advice, I haven't had the opportunity to break out the front with sensible braking methods, I've only ever broken out the front with hard braking which led to eating tarmac very, very quickly (Except for one occasion where, when faced with sliding into the back of a queue of cars hidden by a blind corner that I was approaching at 80ish, I somehow managed to take the beast out of it's slide and continue up the wrong side of the carriageway. Left a lot of rubber on the road and realistically didn't gain full control for about 50 yards on a continuing sweeping corner. Luckily for me it was a long queue caused by cattle crossing the road so nothing was coming the other way and I was able to make my way to the front of the queue, with the knowledge that I'd just come out of what could have been a very sticky situation like a boss ).
Rear break out can be controlled, or not. Try to come up too quickly though and you will almost certainly end up with browned trousers, at the very least.
5) Again, try to recall what you were advised regards braking whilst taking your basic skills course.
Simplfying cornering/braking/wet/dry into 5 questions is not practical.
Experience counts, if you want to push it then you'll soon find the limits. If you want to improve your handling skills then you have to decide whether you need to go back to CBT, visit IAMS or similar, take track lessons, etc. The above chicken strip guide should give you an idea of which path you should be looking at. ____________________ Make mine a Corona. |
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TheInternet |
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TheInternet Borekit Bruiser
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mentalboy |
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mentalboy World Chat Champion
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 14:56 - 09 Jan 2017 Post subject: |
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TheInternet wrote: | Know your limits - clues? |
Fact you feel you have to ask suggest a pretty big 'clue'.
TheInternet wrote: | I always like to have an idea of the limits of any vehicle I am in control of. |
WHY?
TheInternet wrote: | Finding and exceeding that limit in a four-wheeled machine is easy and relatively safe to do, |
No.. no it isn't!
TheInternet wrote: | not so on a bike. |
Err... yeah.. see top.
TheInternet wrote: | In an effort to avoid pointless crashes |
TheInternet wrote: | whilst exploring two-wheeled behaviours |
TheInternet wrote: | assuming sensible tyres and rider inputs |
I think that idea went out the window a L-O-N-G way up the post!
Assuming a 'sensible' rider... these limits wold never be close enough to be in contention, let alone 'experienced'!!!
struan80 wrote: | Best place to even think about getting to a bikes limits are on the track. |
Which, a decade of dirt before I took to the roads made/makes me a bludy menace, 'cos I don't even consciously recognize when I am over riding the limits of gip, I just do, intuitively It is about as far from 'sensible' as you can be. OR as other's I know, road riding becomes so boring or so scary, they ride like a granny or stick to the track.
Back to top again, biggest clue is in the actual asking. ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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TheInternet |
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TheInternet Borekit Bruiser
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gingercat |
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gingercat Derestricted Danger
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Azoth |
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Azoth Brolly Dolly
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Posted: 19:19 - 10 Jan 2017 Post subject: |
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To do this safely, you need a track, the right gear and a trainer to make sure your technique is OK. And you need to be happy to bin the bike. If you don't have those things, you can try it on the road but you're going to be pushing your luck.
The limits change a lot depending on road and machine conditions. It's important to know your bike's maximum braking performance at various speeds, if you want to overtake safely. That's something you can practise on an empty stretch of road without too many problems arising.
If you're talking about cornering, it's more difficult. First, you have to be sure your technique is spot-on, otherwise your cornering ability will be well short of the bike's capability. Once you're sure your technique is absolutely right in the corners, that you're doing all the right things, smooth and not panicking, you can try to find out where the limits lie. However, there's always a high risk of binning the bike or ending up in a hospital or both when doing this. If you really want to, try to find a corner where there's no other traffic or pedestrians, where your bike can crash into something green, and preferably without kerbs. Then take it slowly a few times until you learn the absolute maximum speed you can take that corner in those conditions.
There's a double bend I use for practice from time to time in Berkshire which meets nearly all those conditions. Feel free to PM me for the coordinates.
NB: not recommended to find the limits of your machine on the road. ____________________ Safety in numbers |
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Holdawayt Trackday Trickster
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 12:49 - 11 Jan 2017 Post subject: |
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Holdawayt wrote: | TL:DR - You'll know the limit when your bike tries to kill you, your bike is probably far more capable than you are. |
Or you'll be sat in a ditch wondering "What happened there?!" Whilst waiting for the meat waggon.
Holdawayt wrote: | I was at Rockingham last year in the wet... |
A piece of pedantry, as to whether adding 'in the wet' to 'last year' is a piece of tautology? However... I had deigned not to even reply to Gingercat's query.... but what the heck..... I had gone to offer the notion that this is translation of Boy-Racer speak "'aving a laugh' into politically correct IAM approved 'safty speak' , but still trying to essentially justify high octane indulgences, as something other than.
Thirty years ago, a callow 17 year-old with the ink still wet on my driving licence, I had taken the car test, for three main reasons; first; parents had handed me a voucher for lessons on my birthday in the hope I'd loose interest in these motorbikes (They're still hoping!); second; it secured provisional entitlement for bikes, when it only lasted 2 years and getting a test appointment was a bit of a lottery; third; meant that I didn't have to rely on begging favors to get myself and bike to comp-event! I could, 'borrow' the works pick-up on the week-end!
One weekend, though, one of my college mates, his Dad's Co-Driver in local club rally, had been trying to encourage the more ardent Boy-Racer's among us to go over to an RTV his Dad's club were hosting. Unfortunately, work had a rush job on, "Army style" Hurry up and wait! And Sunday morning I was sat about on site, half a dozen miles from the event, whilst the boss made frantic 'phone calls, and I wondered, rather than sitting about a building site, if I could just 'pop over' and watch.... "Sure, bring back lunch" Said the boss... so over I went.
I returned (in the works pick-up!!) a couple of hours later, without lunch. Much to boss's consternation, with a trophy on the dashboard, much to every-one's amazement, not least my own! Mate's Dad had convinced me to 'enter' since I was there, and had wheels, 'just for the fun'... but actually I won the damn thing!
Was the swansong of the club-rally era to a large degree. And I will confess, I was no stranger to it. I had grow up being chucked about the back of various stage prepped Hillman Imps or MK1 Escorts, and ISTR a rather extrovert ex-works Triumph 2500! That one, I recall being told was a TR6 in disguise! My mothers' car, when I was ten, was a hill-climb Mini, with an over-head-cam 1550 Wolsey engine and genuine magesium wheels that had 'escaped' BL's R&D site! atUmberslade Hall.
That age, of the 'Every-Man' RWD Rally-Car, was being nailed shut by the Germans, and a thing called the 'Audi Quatro', which had had to beg dispensation to be run in rally from the FIA, who had, in 1969, on spotting the Spen King Range-Rover in the Louvre, observed, that it was essentially a Morris Marina estate car, sat on a Land-Rover chassis, with permanent four wheel drive and an engine that, only a couple of years earlier had placed on F1-GP podium.. so BANNED all wheel drive! before it had a chance to show up the Citreons Lol!
Remarkably, for four years at the end of the '70's in international Rally, that German Techno-Wonder was kept at bay by the Humber-Road Hot-Rod, the Talbot Sumbeam Lotus... oh yeah... That was what my Granny drove! Lol! Well, the 'boy-racer' version, the Tii! (WHY it had two 'i's when it didn't have fuel injection is a mystery only the marketing men can answer for! But still.)
Practice of racing the car you drove to work, which had me, as a child, in a sleeping bag, clinging to the pipe lagging on the roll-cage during, pre-event 'siting runs', WAS coming desperately to a close. And at about the same time, as the 125 learner-laws for motorbikes saw the end of 'The lads' turning up to Long-Marston Raceway (Still a closed circuit Road Race venue in them days) or other local tracks, on Suzuki X7's or if they could afford them, RD250LC's and swapping L-Plates for race plates, and hoping not to bend it so much they couldn't ride it home after!
THIS was my childhood, and petrol-head apprenticeship. In an era of hammer and tong mechanics; friendly MOT's overlooking hydraulic handrakes and back-dated 'cover notes' provided on a nod and a wink! And local bobbies, sat in country pub's till closing time, watching amused, as fourteen anorak clad people with clip-boards slowly shuffled out and parked down the lane out of site, leaving the barmaid to find them when he had left, so they could run their midnight 'Time Trail'!
"THE LIMITS".. as perceived by the query, were significantly provided by cross-ply tyres. Often agressive 'Town and Country' tread remolds! At least on the cars. On the bikes, it was rock hard Yokahama's or Japlops, to which an Avon was a decided improvement.
These were a peculiarly effective leveling mechanism between vehicles and drivers or riders, if crudely damped, unsophisticated suspension, drum brakes, and what would now be considered 'curios' weight distribution weren't enough.
Meanwhile "THE LIMITS" were not, have not and will never BE something imposed by the tyres, the suspension, or other design facets of the vehicle.
Learning 'The Craft' with such agricultural machinery, 'The Limits' were regularly driven or ridden right up to, crossed with abandon, and made mockery of.
Cars would be pushed into severe under-steer by, probably simple lack of braking power on corner entry! Then coaxed into over-steer to compensate by application of a bit of power to make the tail step out, the two competing conditions kept in notional balance with a little 'opposite lock'; the car negotiating a corner, FAR beyond the explanations of simple Newtonian Physics, in near parabolic 'flight' only notionally in contact with the ground!!!
BIKES, would be pushed to the point that they wobbled and weaved, and similarly 'drifted' through bends, and riders would tank tape up the rents in their leather's from holding them up with their knee, and then tape bits chopped out of old tyres to the rent, in order to carry on doing it.!!
And in my wandering memory, the camera cuts from a wet and windy Cadwell, scavenging the paddock, looking for broken bits of bodywork, having been dispatched by a rider who's said "No! The rubber's too grippy, I need something a bit more 'slidy' like a broken side panel" To a suburban semi's living room, gin and tonics, whisky and cigars, and the IAM members commenting on the 'natural balence' of a Rear Wheel Drive BMW, and the merits of Anti-Lock-Brakes.. ad of course "How much SAFER it is to have these things AND know how to use them"
BOLLOX! Sorry, but it is utter.
"The Limits" are a myth. They are fiction. a FANTACY! They are IN YOUR HEAD and your head alone!!!
These 'limits', the point at which a vehicle stops obeying simple linear 'rules' of dynamics, and enters the fuzzy world of transtional effects, are NOT where a vehicle automatically 'crashes'.
The era of buggy-spring suspension and cross-ply tyres proves just how far beyond those limits a skilled or foolish driver or rider could go to the 'fuzzy margin' and still maintain some degree of often only notional 'control'.
More modern vehicle design has chucked a heck of a lot of technology at tidying up that boundary, and now a vehicle doesn't so progressively leave the linear and enter the turbulant, and when it does, it is likely that a brave or foolish rider/driver WONT be able to effect control and pilot it through the parabolic.
THIS was being observed in the early 1960's in formula 1 and sportscar racing, as mid-engines and multi-link suspension and rigid monococh construction 'stretched' the boundaries, YET lesser vehicles still managed to stay on a pace with them. In production cars, the same effect was being observed as these technologies filtered down to the street, in the 80's. That was thirty, forty years ago!
Since then, 'productionisation' has seen little significantly 'push the limits', IF limits ever existed, any further up the mountain. ALL they have done is push the transition point further into the margins, and make it a LOT finer and a LOT harder.
Now instead of a vehicle wobbling into the fuzzy edges, it snaps over them... and it does it at speeds FAR higher, and in conditions that are far less predictable.
BUT STILL, a brave or stupid rider/driver can drive or ride right up to them, and even beyond, and NOT CRASH. The 'Limits' remain a fantasy. Talk of them, mere justification for being ' a bit daft'.
Where the boundary lies; where a vehicle stops behaving in a linear predictable manner, is STILL not something you 'need' to know, UNLESS you wish to go there, and explore that boundary.... but if you do, DO NOT try kidding ANY-ONE least of all yourself that it is in any way in the interests of 'safety'!
It is NOT, it is entirely for that 'aving a laugh' thrill seeking experience.
Boundary shifts from vehicle to vehicle, from day to day, road to road. How the vehicle behaves, or misbehaves, on any road, in any condition, shifts. It s NOT a fixed datum, that anchors perceptions and 'helps' you know where you are or what you are doing.
EVEN if you THINK you know where it is.... you DON'T... and if you THINK that makes you 'safer', you are even more misguided in your notions! It DONT!
What makes you safe is NOT going near that fuzzy edge!
Want to experience it?Want to exlore it? Want that high octane thrill seekng 'laugh'? Fine. YEAH its can be a hell of a lot of fun.
GO do it on the track where the points mean prizes, not penalties, and you can come home with a trophy for it, not a bad case of gravel rash and a week off work to wonder how you'll pay the fine without a pay cheque!
Want to be 'safe' on the road? Stop deludng yourself that this thrill seeking fun is what its about and that you need to get anywhere close to that fuzzy margin, and that you can find thrills AND stay safe.
On the road, only 'limits' you need be aware of are the ones posted by the side of the road for how fast you are allowed to go, and you can breach most of them with anything with an engine bigger than a moped's!!!
Be more worried about how other vehicles (And your own's!) DRIVER'S behave, than what you are riding/driving! THEM is what's most likely to hurt you, NOT what point the tyres start to come unglued, or your suspension start to get a bit bouncy!
Seriously the clue IS in the question, THAT you should have to ask it, THAT you think that there really is 'something' in the bike, that sets these limits AND that they are 'important'.. its fantasy on fallacy built on more fallacy and fantasy, trying to justify something that is unjustifiable.
You want to go quick? You want to have fun? Fine go do t... preferably in the track. Do t on the road, don't come crying after.
Want to stay safe? Don't get on a bike to begin with! If you do, accept the risk, and recognize where the risks are, and most aint in the bike, or its deign! And don't try kidding yourself over them!! Watch where you are going! Don't ride into danger expecting other people to watch your arse for you! Don't push your luck looking for these 'limits' you think must exist and that you have to know the location of! ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Holdawayt Trackday Trickster
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onlyJaz |
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onlyJaz Scooby Slapper
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Holdawayt Trackday Trickster
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mentalboy |
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mentalboy World Chat Champion
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Hong Kong Phooey |
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Hong Kong Phooey World Chat Champion
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Monkeywrenche... |
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Monkeywrenche... Nearly there...
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Monkeywrenche... |
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Monkeywrenche... Nearly there...
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
Joined: 01 Jun 2010 Karma :
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Posted: 13:47 - 12 Jan 2017 Post subject: |
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Take what you wish from it.
"The Point" was, and remains, there is a direct conflict between safety and speed.
Doesn't matter how you try and wrap up the wordage; if you are trying to go fast enough that 'The Limits' are in question, you are NOT doing anything to make things any 'safer'.
If you want to explore "The Limits", go ahead... just DON'T try and kid me, yourself or any-one else, that it is in ANY WAY in the interests of 'safety'... or come crying when the plot goes to pot and you learn the lesson the hard way. ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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TheInternet |
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TheInternet Borekit Bruiser
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 7 years, 99 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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