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onlyJaz
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PostPosted: 12:19 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Does it get better? Reply with quote

Londoner here. My commute to work via bus, tube and walk is around 65-70mins normally depending on traffic and walking speed etc so sometimes it can be around 80mins but the best time I've ever got is 55mins. (You northerners will be laughing right now, I know)

I've recently started commuting on my bike, and it takes 45-50mins (13miles) riding but giving time to gear up & gear down it's 70mins which is fine for me because while I don't gain a huge time gain, I miss rush on trains and human traffic and it's more consistent not to mention cheaper than the 140 I used to pay monthly for travel..

According to google maps the dual carriageway (50mph) route is 18miles but quicker (15mins quicker apparently) but that's based on me being in a car so as I only have a small 125, I take the shorter route, more standard city roads as I can filter through the queues of traffic. So my thinking is that I have more to gain from filtering through the traffic on slower roads than trying to make progress on a dual carriageway (even when there's traffic people switch lanes without notice sometimes and my acceleration AND braking distance is abysmal on the ybr so if the route to avoid these is available, I'll happily take it for now).

My question/discussion point I guess is to ask, given that my current average speed in my journey is 14mph, will my journey be quicker or more enjoyable on a bigger bike (on the same roads)? I might take the dual carriageway instead when I get a bigger bike and see how that goes too.

I do plan to get a bigger bike don't get me wrong, I just would like to hear some insight..
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kraggem
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PostPosted: 12:47 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's no reason not to try the dual carriageway on your 125 once or twice just to see what you think given the speed limit you quoted was 50mph. I use my CG (for shorter distances mind you) on 50mph dual carraigeways all the time with no issues. It will manage that no bother I also use the occasional motorway and 70mph dual carriageway on occassion without issue.

Having said that the bigger bike is far more comfortable on such roads. It's more stable, significantly more when it's windy. For a longer journey it's just easier on a bigger bike, less work. Which is generally what you want on a day in day out commute I would suggest. About town a bigger bike isn't much harder to filter than a 125 tbh, provided you don't buy something silly like a Harley full dresser.

The larger bike obviously uses more fuel but how much more depends on the bike, it varies significantly. Also part costs tend to be higher but at the same time the service intervals are also usually further apart.

To be honest I think for a longer commute, especially where sustained higher speeds are required a larger bike will be more enjoyable and much less work. I prefer my 125 for short journeys about town as it feels like I'm ragging it everywhere and it's therefore fun. The bigger bike sometimes barely gets up to temperature on my current commute, but isn't any harder to ride around town or filter with. Both bikes are fun in their own way so I switch between them depending on my mood.

Ideal thing to do if you can afford it is buy a bigger bike and keep the 125 as a spare/winter hack for when your larger one is off the road for maintenance.
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Andy_Pagin
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PostPosted: 13:00 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

All depends on the precise routes, but as a generalisation I would say that an average 14mph for a London commute is about as good as it gets. Personally when I went from a 125 to a big bike it made not the slightest difference.
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pudder
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PostPosted: 13:24 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know your route, or how busy the dual carriageway is, but immediate assumption would be that dual carriageway route would win out.

It might feel like you are gaining more when filtering, as you are passing lots of other vehicles, but its not those vehicles you are trying to beat.
You are trying to beat your time on the other route.

5 miles filtering at 20mph is 15 mins.
8 miles on dual carriageway at 50mph is 10 mins.

But then that is assuming that the dual carriageway flow at 50mph.. which may well not be the case.
City roads will typically have more waiting around at traffic lights.

125 should be more than capable of dual carriageway. Try it both routes a few times, and draw your own real-world conclusions.
Like posters above have said, it will be more enjoyable (less painful) on a suitable bigger bike.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:21 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

You won't be quicker on a bigger bike, but you might enjoy it more. Then again, you might enjoy an MSX more. Or a moped. Or an electrically assisted pedal cycle (legal or "legal"). You might be quicker on the dual carriageway. You might not.

How would we know? Eh?
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onlyJaz
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PostPosted: 14:36 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

meggark wrote:
There's no reason not to try the dual carriageway on your 125 once or twice just to see what you think given the speed limit you quoted was 50mph.


Thanks for all the advice. I did try the dual carriageway a couple times for work and a few times for other trips but I just didn't enjoy the battering it takes from the wind and the fact that I don't have too much acceleration around 50mph is quite off-putting and another time where a clueless woman decided she wanted to change lanes and then whilst she was moving over she decided to change her mind and I had to press harshly on brake, it was wet so my rear tyre started to slide around but luckily I stayed upright. It may well have been poor observations from my end but it was a little off-putting, thinking if a car decided to cut me off unintentionally that I don't have the power to get out of trouble or good brakes.

If I were to keep two bikes, I'd be getting rid of my car which I don't see myself doing Shifty
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onlyJaz
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PostPosted: 14:41 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy_Pagin wrote:
All depends on the precise routes, but as a generalisation I would say that an average 14mph for a London commute is about as good as it gets. Personally when I went from a 125 to a big bike it made not the slightest difference.


Yeah that's basically what my question is. Because there was a nice 600-700cc Triumph (don't know which model but a cruiser style) on my route yesterday and although he would constantly leave me behind off the lights and may even make it past a light that went red for me, I'd always catch him further up the road on another red light, so it makes me think if it will even make a difference in terms of time. That's on the same city route, not the 50mph
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onlyJaz
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PostPosted: 14:42 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

pudder wrote:

It might feel like you are gaining more when filtering, as you are passing lots of other vehicles, but its not those vehicles you are trying to beat.
You are trying to beat your time on the other route.

..........

125 should be more than capable of dual carriageway. Try it both routes a few times, and draw your own real-world conclusions.
Like posters above have said, it will be more enjoyable (less painful) on a suitable bigger bike.


Might just do that two days on and two days off and see what works out better when comparing the two journeys Thumbs Up
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Rufous
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PostPosted: 14:44 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Remove number plate, don't stop at red lights, ride on pavement. You'll get there faster and the police will leave you alone, because it's London. Thumbs Up
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pudder
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PostPosted: 15:03 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

onlyJaz wrote:
Thanks for all the advice. I did try the dual carriageway a couple times for work and a few times for other trips but I just didn't enjoy the battering it takes from the wind and the fact that I don't have too much acceleration around 50mph is quite off-putting and another time where a clueless woman decided she wanted to change lanes and then whilst she was moving over she decided to change her mind and I had to press harshly on brake, it was wet so my rear tyre started to slide around but luckily I stayed upright. It may well have been poor observations from my end but it was a little off-putting, thinking if a car decided to cut me off unintentionally that I don't have the power to get out of trouble or good brakes.


Bigger bike would be a big improvement as far as being blown about.
Having additional power and better brakes gives you options for evasive maneuvres, but the more experienced you get at anticipating erratic behaviour from other road users + pedestrians, the less you will need to rely on them.

As a daily commuter, I wouldn't swap my 650 for a 125. I have a few miles of A roads where its normally clear enough to keep above 50mph. If I have to slow and wait for someone to turn off, its nice to be able to be back up to speed in a couple seconds, rather than it being a slow slog.

If it was all city riding (and never going to be used on more fun roads at the weekend), then theres less incentive to get a bigger bike.
(I know 125's can be fun... according to some people)
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 15:05 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Filtering" is not a word that has any legal meaning.
As far as road law's concerned, what you are doing is "Over-Taking"
Highway code used to contain a disclaimer that opened by saying that "Over taking is a hazardous maneuver performed at risk, by the rider/driver'"
When filtering, you are, largely ring 'at risk' EVERYTHING else, pretty much has right of way; from cars pulling on or out of the queue or switching lanes, or stopping randomly to let other traffic pull across them.

It IS one of THE most dangerous things you can do on a bike, and where you are likely to want to do it, is already likely to be one of the most hazard fraught environments, full of half awake idiots not paying attention and dong daft things, around large numbers of intersections or junctions and pedestrians etc etc etc, all adding to the chaos!

NOW; I used to commute daily into Brum. 22miles each way; last 8miles through city snarl. I NEVER found taking the bike, much if any faster than taking the car, particularly with the togging on and togging off time tagged on ether end.

Journey time, could be a little shorter, BUT we are talking the time it takes a kettle to boil over forty five minutes difference....

And THAT is by taking significant... err... liberties, exploiting 1000cc to get my blood pumping, and blow the sleep out my eyes on the twisty bits at the start; some quite brutal three figure velocities between round-abouts on the by-pass, 'detaching' from the dodderers sorting themselves out as they see clear road ahead, and then, what would still be considered quite 'aggressive' filtering, through the stop start city snarl, and lots of 'risk' every ruddy traffic light trickled to the head of.

Balls to the wall, no prisoners riding.. for at best... five minutes minutes sooner to my desk....

NOW, how desperately do you enjoy your work, or want to impress the boss?

Yeah! it can be done, and you can live to tell the tale, BUT, it takes a hell of a lot of practice to do it, ad do it well enough not to come a croppa, and save any time for the doing.

IF you really have to be at your work-place those few minutes earlier... don't have the extra cuppa before you leave the house! Set the alarm clock ten minutes early, or just don't hit the 'snooze' button! You'll achieve the same end, for little effort or sacrifice and without needig to take ANY of the added risk to life or licence.

On anther commuter run; from one side of Brum to the other; about 50miles each way, It was a trip, on a clear road, I could do in 45minutes or less. During commuter snarl? Could take two hours! Changng my leave time, by just fifteen minutes either way, though could add or remove half an hour from the road..... Not having that coffee for the road, I could get n and have a full breakfast in the canteen instead. OR other end, I could hang back after hours, put n a little over time, or have supper with the nigh-shift, and be back home, just as early, already fed, rather than grubling hungry.

IF you want to cut down journey time; THIS is where you will likely find any large saving, IF they are to be found. NOT in 'Faltering', which if you find any at all, will be small, and at the expense of accepting MUCH bigger risks to get them.

Influence of a big-bike on all of this? Speed limits remain the same, and for the most part a 125 is still capable of exceeding most of them if you are determine enough. It's unlikely to make much odds, it is so much more determined by your attitude.

Effect of a bigger bike, likely a double edged sword; on the one hand, it may make you less inclned to take 'so' many silly little risks to make progress through slower traffic, where its hard work, and a smaller lighter bike is more in ts element, and less hard work, but encouragig you to take those extra rsks because you cant make it up elsewhere, like off the lights, on one go, you may better be able to do o a bigger bike.

Might be more comfy... when you are moving... more to manage when you aint... its a swings and roundabuts job, BUT tendency would likely be it deterred small and frequent risks and encouraged larger less frequent ones.

But either which way; likely savings on time, are likely to be minimal, risks significant; only you could say whether they might be worth it or whether to adjust the alarm clock..

Just remember, its adding risk, in the place there already is MOST.. and in that grey area, where you are most likely to blame for any mishap before the argument even starts.
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onlyJaz
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PostPosted: 15:21 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
I used to commute daily into Brum. 22miles each way; last 8miles through city snarl. I NEVER found taking the bike, much if any faster than taking the car, particularly with the togging on and togging off time tagged on ether end.


Taking a car is out of the question. Traffic means it WILL take 30-40mins longer by car, a daily 11 (maybe 12 now) congestion charge and then you have the problem of no parking in central London unless you want to pay a fortune.

It's Bike/Change vs Bus/Train/Walk

The public transport route costs 1500+ for the year plus hassle of London rush hour. Bike costs are as you guys know, maintenance, insurance and fuel, which is still less than the cost of TFL. I know I'm literally not making many significant time gains btween my two options but one is more consistent and convenient, albeit a LOT more dangerous.

Teflon-Mike wrote:

Effect of a bigger bike, likely a double edged sword; on the one hand, it may make you less inclned to take 'so' many silly little risks to make progress through slower traffic, where its hard work, and a smaller lighter bike is more in ts element, and less hard work, but encouragig you to take those extra rsks because you cant make it up elsewhere, like off the lights, on one go, you may better be able to do o a bigger bike.

Interesting, good points.. Cheers
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pudder
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PostPosted: 15:27 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

While I agree with Tef that filtering isn't that much faster than not, it does tend to be more consistent.

On a reasonable day, my commute is 45 minutes. Once gearing up is included, its only a few minutes faster on the bike than driving.
However, on a bad day I might take an extra 10 minutes battling through Bristol on my bike, or an extra 45 minutes in the car.
And those bad days happen suprisingly frequently, even if not always to that degree.

To me, there is nothing worse than sitting in traffic without the ability to go anywhere.
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onlyJaz
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PostPosted: 15:43 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

pudder wrote:

To me, there is nothing worse than sitting in traffic without the ability to go anywhere.


I'm fairly new to riding and whenever I go in my car now, I get so tempted to go around traffic whenever I see it built up. I've become accustomed to planning my filtering route but then I remember I'm not on my bike Brick Wall
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DrSnoosnoo
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PostPosted: 15:46 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ninja secret:

It takes me the same amount of time, if not more considering dressing up at each end, to ride my bike to work as driving.

But I enjoy riding more than driving, unless the weather is super mega rubbish.

I'd prefer to spend a bit more time on a bike than have to walk miles and get onto a stuffed train, paying for the privilege.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:59 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
Highway code

Now explicitly mentions filtering. Twice, even. Sections 88 and 211. It doesn't define it though.

Teflon-Mike wrote:
"Filtering" is not a word that has any legal meaning.

It has as much meaning as it's assigned. The latest case to mention it is Jones vs Lawton (2013) where Jones had his leg off, sad times.

He claimed to be 'filtering' but the High Court was having none of it.

They did, however, accept that there is a thing called 'filtering between vehicles', in the sense of declaring that he wasn't doing it.

Just an aside so that we can all update our notes.
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bamt
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PostPosted: 16:14 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

London is different to other places. Few other places clog up quite so horribly. My commute by car can take 50 minutes or 3 hours - usually towards two hours each way. On a bike it is consistently around an hour. Even takng into account kitting up that's a big win - over an hour a day saved, plus we have free secure parking for bikes at work but very limited car spaces.

I tend to prefer dual carriageways for filtering as you normally have plenty of room and can maintain steady progress, unlike smaller roads where you are diving in and out of lanes and being held up up by junctions and islands.

Edit to add: 13 miles is also very comfortable cycling distance. On a pushbike you can easily beat cars around town, it is cheap and you get fit - as long as you have somewhere secure for the bike.
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SophR so good
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PostPosted: 16:23 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Totally unrelated but thanks for that link Rogerborg, it contains some helpful stuff for arguing with insurance companies following my crash Smile
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pudder
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PostPosted: 16:38 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

bamt wrote:
On a pushbike you can easily beat cars around town, it is cheap and you get fit - as long as you have somewhere secure for the bike.


And showers at work. Smile
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 16:56 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

SophR so good wrote:
Totally unrelated but thanks for that link Rogerborg, it contains some helpful stuff for arguing with insurance companies following my crash Smile

There's a handy list here:

http://www.motorcyclelawscotland.co.uk/why-choose-us/case-law/
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onlyJaz
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PostPosted: 17:14 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

pudder wrote:
bamt wrote:
On a pushbike you can easily beat cars around town, it is cheap and you get fit - as long as you have somewhere secure for the bike.


And showers at work. Smile


I feel more comfortable with the road position of a motorbike than a pushbike especially in London, plus I would rather not become a spandex warrior, I find too many of them lacking basic road awareness or find it necessary to abide by laws. I know not all are like that but just my views on the small majority I've observed, I'd stay away
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 20:25 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

onlyJaz wrote:
I feel more comfortable with the road position of a motorbike than a pushbike especially in London

There's no reason that a pedalist can't dominate their lane. I was behind one today who did a great job of it, riding well out towards the lane divider.

Of course, I overtook him on his left, but still - he was being very dominant.
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onlyJaz
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PostPosted: 21:08 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:

There's no reason that a pedalist can't dominate their lane.


Some dominate their lane with so much passion that they forget about traffic lights
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bamt
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PostPosted: 21:16 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

onlyJaz wrote:
I would rather not become a spandex warrior, I find too many of them lacking basic road awareness or find it necessary to abide by laws. I know not all are like that but just my views on the small majority I've observed, I'd stay away


That's kind of like saying you'd rather not be a motorcyclist, as they all ride around on cruisers wearing patches on their backs and fight and sell drugs and stuff Smile
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:19 - 11 Jan 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

onlyJaz wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:
There's no reason that a pedalist can't dominate their lane.

Some dominate their lane with so much passion that they forget about traffic lights

OP is in London, lights don't apply to pedalists. FACT.
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