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| arry |
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arry
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 Posted: 10:41 - 10 Jun 2022  Post subject: |
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By the way, good to have you back M.C - and this is an interesting debate  |
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M.C
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| Posted: 12:11 - 10 Jun 2022 Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip wrote: | If you gave me the choice of living in a community based on Christianity, or one based on a political ideology, or which claimed to draw its moral guidance purely from science or intellectualism, I would choose the Christian one |
Well it's Sub-Saharan Africa or Latin America for you, good luck.
| chickenstrip wrote: | even though I don't call myself a Christian. |
That is completely disingenuous, you can't defend something to the death then claim not to be a supporter of said thing.
| Easy-X wrote: | Yes, interesting you avoid answering the question: what would you have instead? |
I answered that several posts ago...
| Quote: | Well it [religion] doesn't solve any of our issues, how about we try everyone being responsible and accountable for their own actions? |
It's not binary, we aren't machines that need programming to function. It's possible, an extreme suggestion I know, you don't need to indoctrinate people with any religious or political ideology?
| Easy-X wrote: | Typical Leftist: only able to critique and never able create something better. |
Leftist  Because I'm not Christian? Go back to what I said about the recent Christianity meme, and observe how right wing circles are now full of people who have been Christian for 6 months, attacking others for not believing like they do (high IQ behaviour that).
Actual lefties would recoil in horror at most of the things I openly talk about. We already have something better, that was created by people who questioned, rather than blindly followed scripture. |
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Easy-X
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| Posted: 12:19 - 10 Jun 2022 Post subject: |
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I can't see the correlation. The USA is very religious relative to other Western nations and I don't think it's a massive stretch to say they've been successful culturally... as in "these c*nts are everywhere" 
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| Posted: 12:26 - 10 Jun 2022 Post subject: |
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Christianity would be a specific bit on the Venn Diagram but I was more focused on tradition.
Reject [tradition] embrace [current thing] is Leftist. The opposite is a [small c] conservative as in conserve the status quo - "this is the way we've always done it and it's worked up till now."
One needs both in balance but as has oft been mentioned previously there are no rabid centerists, it's all "you're either with me or against me" shite
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M.C
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| Posted: 12:42 - 10 Jun 2022 Post subject: |
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| Easy-X wrote: | Christianity would be a specific bit on the Venn Diagram but I was more focused on tradition.
Reject [tradition] embrace [current thing] is Leftist. The opposite is a [small c] conservative as in conserve the status quo - "this is the way we've always done it and it's worked up till now."
One needs both in balance but as has oft been mentioned previously there are no rabid centerists, it's all "you're either with me or against me" shite |
Shitlibs made things binary, which isn't how politics used to work at all. I'm obviously fine with tradition, most people are naturally drawn to it anyway, even with Christianity where people seem to observe the bits with pagan origins.
| Easy-X wrote: | Okay, what do you want? |
For us to follow our natural progression as a society and a people, which doesn't mean a return to Christian, or any sort of political ideology. I don't believe we're on the wrong track, I believe we're being forced off course by people who want to do us harm, be it shitlibs, the church, diversities who hold a historical grudge.
https://i.ytimg.com/vi/qhvUMHNkMgE/maxresdefault.jpg
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Bhud
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Posted: 14:24 - 10 Jun 2022  Post subject: |
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Religion possesses the full gamut of mind control tools, and differs only in its slight flavour, in various regions around the world.
You have to have basic health, clean water, food and shelter. Once you've got those things, why should you come and farm someone's land for him, or fix his boiler? That guy knows how he got his land and his boiler. He doesn't need that to become common knowledge, or else he might inspire someone to take some action to make him lose his land and his boiler.
To make someone do something, you have 2 options:
1) Enslave him (this has worked for thousands of years, but it's inefficient)
2) Make him optimistic about a future happiness that's greater than his present one, if he does what you need him to do
Religion is a highly developed control mechanism. It exerts forces from within the psyche of man. It's like a rootkit. These are the means:
- shame
- guilt
- sense of belonging
- ecstatic states
- gates / stages of progression (the snake sheds its skin)
- effacement of self
etc.
This is why America is more religious than Britain. America is an idea that cannot function without consumerism and the pursuit of eternal life, etc. It's been tried, with hippy communes, etc. and it failed. Nobody, even the most philosophical, really wants to go back to shitting in a bucket.
Britain, on the other hand, has falling church attendances, and a low level of belief in divinity. Yet, most people here have enough (food, health, hygiene, etc.) Not as much as they want, but enough. This has caused a lacuna in people who find, once again, the uncomfortable facility of reason to surface. Why are we here? What are we supposed to do? What's the point in doing xyz? Who or what is to blame? Of course, the answer is always "someone else". So those same old holes (shame, guilt, sense of moral rectitude, superiority or purity, gratitude as code for self-sacrifice, etc.) are filled by different things now. God will no longer destroy the world if you have a wank instead of making more replacements to serve your master, but rather if you keep getting in his way riding bikes and driving cars for reasons other than serving your master. Or, in general, consuming things and energy that don't serve your lord. So religion was replaced by some "new" things:
- fitness and health fanaticism
- latching onto a chosen "truth" and then becoming a martyr for it (XR, etc.) in order to enact a holy war on your neighbour
- the new Lent of giving up sugar or petroleum products or meat or whatever
Same old same old.
The bottom line is, if people see the truth, nothing will work. Society has to constantly marginalise and demonise the nonbeliever as savage and unwelcome, to be shooed off (someone's) land.
Last edited by Bhud on 14:32 - 10 Jun 2022; edited 1 time in total |
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Posted: 14:56 - 10 Jun 2022  Post subject: |
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M.C, it is your replies that are disingenuous, as you paint sweeping generalisations about vast swathes of people, assuming they are all the same.
Let me explain my position:
I happen to think Christianity has given us the best and most complete framework for leading good lives in the context of how we interact with others. You, I am sure, are going to point me to a better one? I await with interest.
I say I am not a Christian. Why is that, since I think the above?
It is because I see the Bible as a metaphorical text; God, Jesus and miracles etc as metaphorical concepts to illustrate various points, just as children's fables do (which are often drawn from the Bible anyway, but represented in a way that is easier for children to understand).
Now you are also going to point me to a country that we can hold up as a wonderful example of how to live that is all based on a political ideology, or pure science (science has no values, by the way, ethical, moral or otherwise), or pure intellectualism. Again, I await with interest. What have you got to offer me?
You talk of "progression", but what are you progressing towards? How will you know when you've reached the destination? By what will you measure it?
Christianity actually gives the answers to all of that by placing the onus on YOU, the individual. If you're a wrong 'un, how are you going to progress anywhere? But I assume you think you are already perfect? Well done, you are God then.
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| Posted: 15:20 - 10 Jun 2022 Post subject: |
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| M.C wrote: | For us to follow our natural progression as a society and a people, which doesn't mean a return to Christian, or any sort of political ideology. I don't believe we're on the wrong track, I believe we're being forced off course by people who want to do us harm, be it shitlibs, the church, diversities who hold a historical grudge. |
You could have just said "anti-Globalist" - would have saved a lot of typing 
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| Posted: 19:05 - 10 Jun 2022 Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip wrote: | M.C, it is your replies that are disingenuous, as you paint sweeping generalisations about vast swathes of people, assuming they are all the same. |
| M.C wrote: | To me that is utter insanity, to ignore trends, patterns, and the underlying causes. I'd go as far to say that it usually comes from a place of malicious intent. |
| chickenstrip wrote: | I happen to think Christianity has given us the best and most complete framework for leading good lives in the context of how we interact with others. You, I am sure, are going to point me to a better one? I await with interest. |
| M.C wrote: | It's not binary, we aren't machines that need programming to function. It's possible, an extreme suggestion I know, you don't need to indoctrinate people with any religious or political ideology? |
| M.C wrote: | Well it [religion] doesn't solve any of our issues, how about we try everyone being responsible and accountable for their own actions? |
| chickenstrip wrote: | Now you are also going to point me to a country that we can hold up as a wonderful example of how to live that is all based on a political ideology, or pure science (science has no values, by the way, ethical, moral or otherwise), or pure intellectualism. Again, I await with interest. What have you got to offer me? |
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Religion_in_the_world.png
| M.C wrote: | ...under Christianity most of our population lived in poverty, children were exploited, we fought extremely bloody wars with each other sometimes over doctrine, invaded other countries, saw a thriving slave trade in Africa and with our Christian morals thought ooh let's get involved in that. |
^If you're going to be tedious and repetitive I'm going to copy previous answers.
| chickenstrip wrote: | You talk of "progression", but what are you progressing towards? How will you know when you've reached the destination? By what will you measure it? |
Hopefully a better and more peaceful society with less suffering and conflict, the measure is reflecting on how things were and if there has been an improvement or not.
| chickenstrip wrote: | Christianity actually gives the answers to all of that by placing the onus on YOU, the individual. |
It does the complete opposite. It's gods will, it's gods plan. Along with the offer of redemption it's why it's so powerful and alluring.
| chickenstrip wrote: | But I assume you think you are already perfect? Well done, you are God then. |
Were you genuinely proud to write that and click submit? |
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| Posted: 21:01 - 10 Jun 2022 Post subject: |
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| M.C wrote: | It's not binary, we aren't machines that need programming to function. It's possible, an extreme suggestion I know, you don't need to indoctrinate people with any religious or political ideology? |
But we do need to indoctrinate people with good moral values, yes? You say you have come up with your own. What about everyone else? Do you trust everyone else to come up with their own values? Do you trust that they will come up with the same ones as you claim to have? Do you see that happening in society all around you, and all around the world? You don't have to force anyone into religion or political ideology, no, but Christianity has already done the work of laying a set of core values by which we in the west live, have built our civilisation around. Deny it all you like, but you better avoid reading history.
| M.C wrote: | Well it [religion] doesn't solve any of our issues, how about we try everyone being responsible and accountable for their own actions? |
But that is what the Bible has been teaching for over 2000 years. It even explains WHY people should be responsible for their own actions. Heaven and hell are very real. But another reason I don't call myself a Christian is that I don't think they are places where you go when you die. They are very real in life. If you have a conscience, you will suffer the consequences of what you do in this life, while you are still breathing.
| Quote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | Now you are also going to point me to a country that we can hold up as a wonderful example of how to live that is all based on a political ideology, or pure science (science has no values, by the way, ethical, moral or otherwise), or pure intellectualism. Again, I await with interest. What have you got to offer me? |
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6c/Religion_in_the_world.png |
So from a moral perspective, Russia under Putin is fine by you. Ok... 
| M.C wrote: | ...under Christianity most of our population lived in poverty, children were exploited, we fought extremely bloody wars with each other sometimes over doctrine, invaded other countries, saw a thriving slave trade in Africa and with our Christian morals thought ooh let's get involved in that. |
So you aren't aware of the history about how Britain helped to bring slavery to an end? That it was very much driven by Christians? And how did people live before Christianity?
| Quote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | Christianity actually gives the answers to all of that by placing the onus on YOU, the individual. |
It does the complete opposite. |
No, it doesn't. It gives you as an individual a standard by which to live.
| Quote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | But I assume you think you are already perfect? Well done, you are God then. |
Were you genuinely proud to write that and click submit? |
Proud? No. But I'm perfectly happy with it.
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| Posted: 21:17 - 10 Jun 2022 Post subject: |
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| M.C wrote: |
| arry wrote: | Just because the society has now moved away from religion - which let's be honest, has only really happened over a very short (relatively speaking) timeframe in this country |
And it just happens to coincide with people having the highest quality of life in human history. |
We'll never know how we got to these prosperous times
| Quote: | Answer me this why are people fleeing deeply religious Christian and Muslim regions for irreligious countries? |
And taking their religions with them.
| Quote: | Why are Orthadox Christian's killing each other right now in Ukraine? |
You think the war in Ukraine is all about, or driven by religion? 
| Quote: |
I'm not sure it's good to be back but thanks  |
You plunged straight into the politics and current affairs section. What did you expect?
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| Posted: 22:00 - 10 Jun 2022 Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip wrote: | But we do need to indoctrinate people with good moral values, yes? |
| chickenstrip wrote: | Do you see that happening in society all around you, and all around the world? |
Around me? I see Christians and Muslims causing lots of crime and generally behaving really shitty. Not sure why as they've been instilled with muh morals and should using your logic be better human beings than us godless heathens. Around the world... much the same thing.
| chickenstrip wrote: | You don't have to force anyone into religion or political ideology, no, but Christianity has already done the work of laying a set of core values by which we in the west live, have built our civilisation around. Deny it all you like, but you better avoid reading history. |
You've essentially repeated 'diversity is our strength' 1700 times during this convo.
| chickenstrip wrote: | But that is what the Bible has been teaching for over 2000 years. It even explains WHY people should be responsible for their own actions. Heaven and hell are very real. But another reason I don't call myself a Christian is that I don't think they are places where you go when you die. They are very real in life. If you have a conscience, you will suffer the consequences of what you do in this life, while you are still breathing. |
You don't even understand the religion you're trying to defend. It doesn't teach personal responsibility, the main concept of hell is unbelievers go there, and sinners who haven't repented and accepted Jesus.
| chickenstrip wrote: | So from a moral perspective, Russia under Putin is fine by you. Ok... |
You claim to be well read and learned, on Putin as I remember. You'll know all about the rise of Orthodoxy in Russia, I even referenced it earlier...
| chickenstrip wrote: | So you aren't aware of the history about how Britain helped to bring slavery to an end? That it was very much driven by Christians? And how did people live before Christianity? |
We ended slavery? I think you'll find it's very much alive and kicking in African/Christian and Muslim countries... but wait muh morals. Christian's were happy taking part in the Atlantic slave trade for over 300 years, before some of them thought hang on, and you think that gives them some moral highground?
Before Christianity we were obviously all savages and zero advanced societies ever existed. |
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| Posted: 22:24 - 10 Jun 2022 Post subject: |
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| M.C wrote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | But we do need to indoctrinate people with good moral values, yes? |
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Ok, how about "teach people good moral values"? Are you ok with that one?
| Quote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | Do you see that happening in society all around you, and all around the world? |
Around me? I see Christians and Muslims causing lots of crime and generally behaving really shitty. Not sure why as they've been instilled with muh morals and should using your logic be better human beings than us godless heathens. Around the world... much the same thing. |
So only religious folk cause crime and behave "really shitty". Ok...
| Quote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | You don't have to force anyone into religion or political ideology, no, but Christianity has already done the work of laying a set of core values by which we in the west live, have built our civilisation around. Deny it all you like, but you better avoid reading history. |
You've essentially repeated 'diversity is our strength' 1700 times during this convo. |
Frankly, I think you're a bit weird...
| Quote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | But that is what the Bible has been teaching for over 2000 years. It even explains WHY people should be responsible for their own actions. Heaven and hell are very real. But another reason I don't call myself a Christian is that I don't think they are places where you go when you die. They are very real in life. If you have a conscience, you will suffer the consequences of what you do in this life, while you are still breathing. |
You don't even understand the religion you're trying to defend. It doesn't teach personal responsibility, the main concept of hell is unbelievers go there, and sinners who haven't repented and accepted Jesus. |
I think I already told you that I'm not a Christian, and that I think that in particular the New Testament lays down a good way to live your life. Perhaps it's my turn to have to repeat myself?
| Quote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | So from a moral perspective, Russia under Putin is fine by you. Ok... |
You claim to be well read and learned, on Putin as I remember. You'll know all about the rise of Orthodoxy in Russia, I even referenced it earlier... |
You're the one that posted the map.
| Quote: | | chickenstrip wrote: | So you aren't aware of the history about how Britain helped to bring slavery to an end? That it was very much driven by Christians? And how did people live before Christianity? |
We ended slavery? I think you'll find it's very much alive and kicking in African/Christian and Muslim countries... but wait muh morals. Christian's were happy taking part in the Atlantic slave trade for over 300 years, before some of them thought hang on, and you think that gives them some moral highground? |
Oh, you're one of those people! We ended slavery here, and we put pressure on other European countries to end their involvement in it. But that doesn't matter, it's only the bad stuff that counts, right? 
| Quote: | Before Christianity we were obviously all savages and zero advanced societies ever existed. |
That's just plain funny
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| Posted: 22:29 - 10 Jun 2022 Post subject: |
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| M.C wrote: |
That one of the few people I respected on this forum wouldn't have turned into a total nobhead but I guess unfortunately people change. |
It's ok, your respect is something I can manage without
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| Posted: 23:27 - 10 Jun 2022 Post subject: |
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| chickenstrip wrote: | So only religious folk cause crime and behave "really shitty". Ok... |
Never said that however, the majority of crime in this city comes from one Christian community, and the other abrahamic lot aren't much better and seem to like morally molesting young girls. Sorry sorry they aren't a community statistically massively over-represented in crime, merely a community with bad individuals.
| chickenstrip wrote: | | M.C wrote: | You don't even understand the religion you're trying to defend. It doesn't teach personal responsibility, the main concept of hell is unbelievers go there, and sinners who haven't repented and accepted Jesus. |
I think I already told you that I'm not a Christian, and that I think that in particular the New Testament lays down a good way to live your life. Perhaps it's my turn to have to repeat myself? |
I didn't say you were Christian, I said you're trying to defend Christianity. Or does defending the religious text the religion is based on not count?
| chickenstrip wrote: | You're the one that posted the map. |
And you knew better, do you see why I called you disingenuous?
| chickenstrip wrote: | Oh, you're one of those people! We ended slavery here, and we put pressure on other European countries to end their involvement in it. But that doesn't matter, it's only the bad stuff that counts, right? |
Yes I'm one of those people who thinks we should never have got involved in African slavery Sorry my morals are iffy.
| chickenstrip wrote: | | M.C wrote: | Before Christianity we were obviously all savages and zero advanced societies ever existed. |
That's just plain funny |
And yet it's exactly what the likes of E.Michael Jones say, which isn't a million miles from what you're saying, except he thinks it's just Catholicism which is even more hilarious. |
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| Posted: 15:20 - 25 Jun 2022 Post subject: |
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Jeez Louise! Americans have a poor grasp of European geography at the best of times but the article starts with:
| Quote: | LONDON -- Two people were shot and killed and 10 were injured early Saturday in a nightclub in Oslo, Norway, in what Oslo Police now suspect was a terror attack.
Authorities say the gunman, identified as a 42-year-old Norwegian citizen originally from Iran, was arrested after opening fire at three locations in downtown Oslo at approximately 1 a.m., including at a nightclub that is popular within the LGBTQ community called The London Pub. |
With regards to the weapons used "an automatic weapon but not modern" might refer to the outright ban on full automatic weapons (for civilian use) in Norway except for collectors. Something like a deactivated Sturmgewehr above the fireplace but not an AK74 for hunting moose.
The hand waving "mental health" reasons are ever present but surely someone provided the (somewhat) exotic weapon 
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 1 year, 299 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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