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Dog snapped at us for the first time

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Motorhate
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PostPosted: 15:07 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pjay wrote:
Working dogs should never be fully treated as house pets.
They are hunting dogs and only in recent years have the been used as pets. It's not natural for working dogs to be expected to be the perfect family pet, it's unfair on the dog.

People should look into the breeds of dogs when they buy them.


Nothing like a blanket statement to prove the validity of your point.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 15:13 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Feasty wrote:
It's an extremely difficult thing to work through though when there is a risk to your child.

It shouldn't be. I quite like my moggies, but if they ever get bitey, then it's here kitty-kitty-kitty time.

https://i.imgur.com/aYl1XZ5.png

So, is anyone here actually volunteering to rehome the beast and snuggwle the snarly out of it?
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davethekwak
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PostPosted: 15:22 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Re: Dog snapped at us for the first time Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:
Feasty wrote:
Whilst he is lovely and friendly again after that

Why wouldn't he be happy, having successfully asserted his dominance?

This!
Dogs will generally growl /snap / bite for one of two reasons. 1) they feel threatened or 2) they are trying to raise their status in the pack. The family is his pack including cats and humans.
From what the OP says it strikes me this is a dominance issue which has been growing for some time. The dog has been testing the water to see what reaction he gets.
He is expecting one of two things to happen, his threat is accepted (he wins) or he is at risk of getting his throat ripped out ( he looses). Dogs are simple creatures that don't really understand the nuances of human behaviour.
I would suggest in all the tests he has carried out he thinks he has won and so continues to push.
Unless something stops his progress things will end in a bad place.
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grr666
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PostPosted: 15:27 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Rogerborg wrote:

So, is anyone here actually volunteering to rehome the beast and snuggwle the snarly out of it?

Thought about it, no kids here for it to bite and it will quickly learn who is pack leader in chez Grr. However the timings
wrong while I'm trying to raise my pup into an obedient adult. Also it's a he. I'd sooner stick to bitches, largely speaking
they are more compliant, docile and maternal.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 15:59 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Re: Dog snapped at us for the first time Reply with quote
Feasty wrote:
My wife told the dog off, sent him to his bed and was giving him a telling off


This rings alarm bells. Who told you to tell the dog off when it does stuff like that?

If it was your behaviourist, you need a different one.

Way too much for me to go into but by telling the dog off, you are effectively rewarding it for doing whatever it did by giving it your full attention. You are training it to bark and snap.

It's a behavioural problem but the fact he's snapping rather than biting means he has excellent bite inhibition. It's a grade 1/6 bite on the Dunbar scale and means he knows not to actually bite. You need to train him out of the behaviour.

I have a huge amount of respect for the methods used by a guy called Ian Dunbar. There are dog trainers who use the Dunbar system in the UK or have a look at some of his videos and read some of his articles.
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mudcow007
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PostPosted: 16:06 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
weasley wrote:
Would 4 years old be about the time of life that a large male dog might start thinking about usurping the pack alpha?


My Border Collie went through an episode like this...thinking about it, she still is
https://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c81/mudcow007/DSC01032_zps0d65767a.jpg
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Polarbear
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PostPosted: 17:06 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
grr666 wrote:
Rogerborg wrote:

So, is anyone here actually volunteering to rehome the beast and snuggwle the snarly out of it?

Thought about it, no kids here for it to bite and it will quickly learn who is pack leader in chez Grr. However the timings
wrong while I'm trying to raise my pup into an obedient adult. Also it's a he. I'd sooner stick to bitches, largely speaking
they are more compliant, docile and maternal.


Funny, I'd rather have dogs. Maybe because the two GSD bitches I had were alpha female material and by fuck you had to be on your toes with them. The dogs I have had have been much more predictable.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 18:21 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Re: Dog snapped at us for the first time Reply with quote
stinkwheel wrote:

by telling the dog off, you are effectively rewarding it for doing whatever it did by giving it your full attention. You are training it to bark and snap.


Not sure if I buy this.

My parents' dogs are like hyperactive toddlers. Soon as they do something wrong, you give them a good telling off and they cower like hell. The female even sometimes pisses on the floor in fright - and the bollocking they get is never very aggressive, just the 'bad dog' variety. They just know full well when they've done wrong.

Sometimes there's a shit in the kitchen in the morning and they know they're in trouble before they even get out of their dog beds. That one generates a bit of guilt actually because dogs can't be expected to hold it in if they have to go. But still, the guilt is so very obvious and that was caused by training them to know there's trouble coming if they do certain things.

I'd suggest a troublesome dog might not be getting enough love. The anecdotal dog-bollocking evidence I've just given is counterbalanced by ultra-dog-love they get every other second of the day. They know their place and it's by and large a very good one.

Maybe Mr Feasty's spaniel doesn't feel like he's part of the pack at all, whether he does right or wrong. Just a thought. Dog psychology is probably quite complex with lots of individual cases. Could even be loneliness. That's why my parents have two dogs now.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 18:45 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Re: Dog snapped at us for the first time Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
Soon as they do something wrong, you give them a good telling off and they cower like hell. The female even sometimes pisses on the floor in fright

That's really bad! Really really bad!!!

If the dog pisses then it's clearly scared witless. You can't punish a dog, they're not going to make the link between whatever it was they did which your parents dislike and the "good telling off" they get at some point after. All the dog will know is that your parents are sometimes nasty scary people who make the female piss herself. The dogs aren't going to trust your parents because things like that sometimes happen and the dogs can't unlearn that.

If a dog does something wrong then it's the owners fault for letting the situation occur in the first place. If there's a dog egg on the kitchen floor in the morning then you either should have taken it outside to lay an egg before you went to bed or you should have got up earlier. The dog can't open the door to let itself out, it doesn't want to shit in the kitchen but if its beloved people (who're sometimes really scary) don't let it out then it's left with no choice.

That ultra-dog-love counterbalance just creates more confusion for the dogs.

Training them to know there's trouble coming if they do certain things sounds horrible, you can't scare them into doing what you want, that's cruel.

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Howling Terror
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PostPosted: 19:05 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
I have learned patience, and to reward good, use distraction or ignore bad behaviour.

I used to hit my old dogs if they'd done something bad. They don't all respond to this and they trust you less.
My then partner now wife showed me by example how to bring up an obedient and happy dog (I am also happy (and sometimes obedient during roleplay)).

Collies are a nipping breed...terriers are snappy but surprised your spaniel is bitey. Recently lost my Collie (Tilly aka TillBob aka Bobski aka PsychoBob)
she'd been left tied to a post-dogshome-rehomed-returned-Me-returned-Me.

Long story short she was a messed up dangerous mess and through patience and taking her everywhere with me we ended up with a dog that would allow my daughter's pet rats to walk on her and approached people and other dogs with her tail wagging happily.

Taught her to get the phone/remote. Bark on command (handy when you send the kid off to the shops), swim. Had a dog lead..didn't use it.

Dan our other Collie was a clean slate he's an A Grade pupil and does about 3x the distance I walk ...so approx 30miles. He is living the dream.

Sweep our working cocker is a cunt. I adore her.
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duhawkz
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PostPosted: 19:51 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Re: Dog snapped at us for the first time Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
stinkwheel wrote:

by telling the dog off, you are effectively rewarding it for doing whatever it did by giving it your full attention. You are training it to bark and snap.


Not sure if I buy this.

My parents' dogs are like hyperactive toddlers. Soon as they do something wrong, you give them a good telling off and they cower like hell. The female even sometimes pisses on the floor in fright - and the bollocking they get is never very aggressive, just the 'bad dog' variety. They just know full well when they've done wrong.

Sometimes there's a shit in the kitchen in the morning and they know they're in trouble before they even get out of their dog beds. That one generates a bit of guilt actually because dogs can't be expected to hold it in if they have to go. But still, the guilt is so very obvious and that was caused by training them to know there's trouble coming if they do certain things.

I'd suggest a troublesome dog might not be getting enough love. The anecdotal dog-bollocking evidence I've just given is counterbalanced by ultra-dog-love they get every other second of the day. They know their place and it's by and large a very good one.

Maybe Mr Feasty's spaniel doesn't feel like he's part of the pack at all, whether he does right or wrong. Just a thought. Dog psychology is probably quite complex with lots of individual cases. Could even be loneliness. That's why my parents have two dogs now.


You are aware that stinky is a vet?
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:25 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Re: Dog snapped at us for the first time Reply with quote
duhawkz wrote:
You are aware that stinky is a vet?

Yes, he kills animals for a living.

I have brick, will travel.
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Islander
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PostPosted: 23:08 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Stinkwheel's spot on. If he has bite inhibition then you're halfway there.

Pjay is talking out of his arse. Working breeds are fine as pets and most springers are bred as pets not as working dogs.
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andyscooter
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PostPosted: 23:18 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
So according to this thread my 14_year old dog that happily rips rats to bits should have killed my 9 year old daughter

Who I add is the only person in the house that the mental case will let near him and put head bands on and cuddle up to unless its on his terms

If she is Ill good luck getting past him by the way he wont leave her side

My dog would defend me to the death unless I was having a go at her then I think he would take her side

He snaps at me on occasion then remembers I am in charge
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Last edited by andyscooter on 09:19 - 04 Mar 2017; edited 1 time in total
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Pjay
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PostPosted: 23:50 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Islander wrote:
Pjay is talking out of his arse. Working breeds are fine as pets and most springers are bred as pets not as working dogs.


Yeah dogs only kill around 25,000 people per yer, nothing to worry about.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 00:06 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
We are getting a Border Collie pup in 3 weeks time following the death of our beloved mutt just before Christmas. My Mrs is a serial Googler and has read every dog training site on the net in preparation. What more does she know now that we didn't know before - very little...

Her in depth investigation into the hows and whys of dog training can be summarised in one sentence - ignore the bad and praise the good.

Just like kids, dogs seek attention and will try to get it in any way they can. Also like kids, aggression stems from fear so remove the fear factor by properly socialising the dog and unless it truly has a screw loose, the aggression should disappear. This is why small dogs tend to be snappier than large ones, again just like kids...

I've never owned a Spaniel but have known a few, and in my experience the temperament tends towards the 'daft' rather than aggression. Next door has a lovely Spaniel but I wouldn't enter it for Mastermind...
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Dalemac
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PostPosted: 00:09 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pjay wrote:
Islander wrote:
Pjay is talking out of his arse. Working breeds are fine as pets and most springers are bred as pets not as working dogs.


Yeah dogs only kill around 25,000 people per yer, nothing to worry about.


Humans kill many order or magnitude more Humans than dogs do. Maybe it's just because we're humans, or maybe some of us were taught what is right and what is wrong, while others were not.

OP, it seems to me like you've already made your mind up and are just seeking validation to put the dog to sleep.

If this isn't the case, I'd strongly advise you to contact Simple - I've seen her training, I've seen her dogs (in working and home environments) and she really know what she is doing!
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 00:12 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Pjay wrote:
Islander wrote:
Pjay is talking out of his arse. Working breeds are fine as pets and most springers are bred as pets not as working dogs.


Yeah dogs only kill around 25,000 people per yer, nothing to worry about.


Must be worldwide figures including countries that have wild dogs or something because in England & Wales it averages just over 2 per year.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 00:16 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Re: Dog snapped at us for the first time Reply with quote
duhawkz wrote:


You are aware that stinky is a vet?


Vet = Animal psychologist ?

Ste wrote:

That's really bad! Really really bad!!!

If the dog pisses then it's clearly scared witless.


It's an ultra-rare occurrence anyway, but she pisses when she's excited too.

Quote:
You can't punish a dog, they're not going to make the link between whatever it was they did which your parents dislike and the "good telling off" they get at some point after. All the dog will know is that your parents are sometimes nasty scary people who make the female piss herself.

The dogs aren't going to trust your parents because things like that sometimes happen and the dogs can't unlearn that.


This isn't true at all, classical conditioning has been known for about a century. You can train a dog to sit, lie down, give you a paw and all that other stuff, which is a direct result of positive reinforcement for a certain human-desired acts. They do it because they think they're going to get a biscuit or something. The same goes for training a dog to not do certain human-undesired acts.

The other of my parents' dogs is a rescue dog who was used for fighting by chav scum. He now always tries to fight other dogs and animals he meets. I was once walking the dogs and passed a horse on the other side of a fence. He suddenly jumped at the horse, which started and galloped away down the field, then galloped straight back at me and stopped right at the last moment in front of the fence. It was scary and infuriating in equal measure. I thought it was going to hop over and mow us down. How do you propose I should have reacted? Tell him that I'm not upset but I'm disappointed and give him a big understanding hug? Nope, he got a good slap on the snout. Surprise surprise, he hasn't done it since, and now every time he gets jumpy and I have to hold him back in any way, he shows serious guilt afterwards until I tell him it's all ok and he's a good boy for not being as fighty as he used to be, and then he gets all happy and starts trying to lick my face. That's your classical conditioning right there.


Quote:

If a dog does something wrong then it's the owners fault for letting the situation occur in the first place. If there's a dog egg on the kitchen floor in the morning then you either should have taken it outside to lay an egg before you went to bed or you should have got up earlier. The dog can't open the door to let itself out, it doesn't want to shit in the kitchen but if its beloved people (who're sometimes really scary) don't let it out then it's left with no choice.

That ultra-dog-love counterbalance just creates more confusion for the dogs.

Training them to know there's trouble coming if they do certain things sounds horrible, you can't scare them into doing what you want, that's cruel.

Thumbs Down


Why is it cruel? It works on humans. If you stay awake past midnight the witches come out, so get to bed! If you take any drugs you'll end up addicted and homeless!

Also, dogs do have personalities. You can't take my description and blanket apply it to all dogs you've ever met. My parents' two dogs are hyper, lovable little bastards. The female one has pissed in fear twice - and believe me it's not "hell on earth" trouble, it's your run of the mill 'bad dog' variety. She does it when she's excited sometimes too. I honestly think she might have some kind of dog autism or dog ADHD, she's really that hyperactive and unpredictable. They're staffies so they're extremely physical and show love by snapping at your face. Every day is a face snap day. They aren't confused at all and they're intelligent enough to know a lot of things, for example 5 oclock it's food time and 10 oclock they get a chewy stick thing, and they always let us know about it when the time comes. That's more classical conditioning for you.

Generally I think you're wrong saying that you can't train dogs to not do things. If you can train them with positive reinforcement to do circus tricks and feature on crufts, you can also use negative reinforcement to train bad habits out of them. Obviously it's not nice, but how else can you fix the problem? Sitting down and having a polite word doesn't exactly work..!

I agree it's my parents' fault for not training them properly in the first place (well the rescue dog had previous owners so they're the culprits there), but now I'm living here for the year all the dog walking has been put on my shoulders and a bit of tough love has helped greatly.

Really feel like I've come across as an arse of a dog-keeper here so I want to say again that these dogs are the most loved I've ever seen. They're like two extra humans in the house, sharing sofas, beds, food (leftover meat) etc, even 'friendship' if it could be described as such a thing. Every morning when I see them their excitement and happiness is off the scale.
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Diggs
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PostPosted: 00:24 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
About the dog 'pissing' thing, I did read that they do this to show submission. Make sense to me. Any dog that considers itself low in life's pecking order is going to piss itself more than the top dog...
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 00:39 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Re: Dog snapped at us for the first time Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
they're staffies so they're extremely physical and show love by snapping at your face. Every day is a face snap day.

[3... 2...]

Generally I think you're wrong saying that you can't train dogs to not do things. If you can train them with positive reinforcement to do circus tricks and feature on crufts, you can also use negative reinforcement to train bad habits out of them.

https://i.imgur.com/qbIs6Fa.png?1
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duhawkz
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PostPosted: 09:39 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Re: Dog snapped at us for the first time Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
duhawkz wrote:


You are aware that stinky is a vet?


Vet = Animal psychologist ?


What are you suggesting, that your second hand experience gained from watching your parents badly raise their dogs qualifies you in animal behaviour/psychology.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 10:13 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Re: Dog snapped at us for the first time Reply with quote
Lord Percy wrote:
Why is it cruel? It works on humans. If you stay awake past midnight the witches come out, so get to bed! If you take any drugs you'll end up addicted and homeless!

Exactly, it doesn't work on humans. Laughing

You can't tell a dog why you're being angry at it, the dog isn't going to make the link between something it did however long ago and you being nasty to it now.

Lord Percy wrote:
You can't take my description and blanket apply it to all dogs you've ever met. My parents' two dogs are hyper, lovable little bastards. The female one has pissed in fear twice - and believe me it's not "hell on earth" trouble, it's your run of the mill 'bad dog. bad dog, why did you do that lol? why did I let you do that? please stop that right now' variety.

If its pissing in fear then that's beyond run of the mill saying 'bad dog'.

Lord Percy wrote:
She does it when she's excited sometimes too. I honestly think she might have some kind of dog autism or dog ADHD, she's really that hyperactive and unpredictable.

The unpredictableness says more about the owners than it does the dog.

Lord Percy wrote:
They're staffies so they're extremely physical and show love by snapping at your face.

If they show love by snapping at your face, what are you worried about? Laughing

Lord Percy wrote:
They aren't confused at all and they're intelligent enough to know a lot of things, for example 5 oclock it's food time and 10 oclock they get a chewy stick thing, and they always let us know about it when the time comes. That's more classical conditioning for you.

They are indeed intelligent, they know that their beloved people are usually nice to them but not always, for that reason they're never going to trust you as much as if one of them didn't piss themselves of our fear / submission on occasions.

Lord Percy wrote:
Generally I think you're wrong saying that you can't train dogs to not do things. If you can train them with positive reinforcement to do circus tricks and feature on crufts, you can also use negative reinforcement to train bad habits out of them. Obviously it's not nice, but how else can you fix the problem? Sitting down and having a polite word doesn't exactly work..!

Of course you can train a dog not to do something. Laughing

You can use positive reinforcement to train bad habits out of them. If you want to fix the bad habits then working out why the bad things are happening will help you. The dog is attempting to communicate something with you, then you can take steps to prevent whatever the problem is from happening again.

Lord Percy wrote:
I agree it's my parents' fault for not training them properly in the first place (well the rescue dog had previous owners so they're the culprits there), but now I'm living here for the year all the dog walking has been put on my shoulders and a bit of tough love has helped greatly.

Yup, it's the owners fault. Very Happy Sounds like you're getting on well with them anyway so this is all somewhat of a mute point. Laughing

Lord Percy wrote:
Really feel like I've come across as an arse of a dog-keeper here so I want to say again that these dogs are the most loved I've ever seen. They're like two extra humans in the house, sharing sofas, beds, food (leftover meat) etc, even 'friendship' if it could be described as such a thing. Every morning when I see them their excitement and happiness is off the scale.

Mr. Green It's more than friendship, you are their life. Mr. Green

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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:40 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Re: Dog snapped at us for the first time Reply with quote
duhawkz wrote:


What are you suggesting, that your second hand experience gained from watching your parents badly raise their dogs qualifies you in animal behaviour/psychology.


No Confused I was saying that vets are trained to be vets, not animal psychologists.

And that's not to say Stinkwheel was necessarily wrong, just that I had anecdotal evidence that disagreed. You however believe vets know all about how animals think, which is about as valid as saying all RAF personnel can fly planes because they work with them.
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Lord Percy
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PostPosted: 12:45 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Re: Dog snapped at us for the first time Reply with quote
Ste wrote:

Mr. Green It's more than friendship, you are their life. Mr. Green



Agreed Thumbs Up

Funny how BCF turns to mumsnet when it comes to dog ownership Laughing
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The last post was made 7 years, 54 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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