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Early Days, (Struggling with tight turns)

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Deadonkey
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PostPosted: 19:23 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Early Days, (Struggling with tight turns) Reply with quote

Hi,

Doing my DAS, Had 6 lessons so far, 4 on a ybr125 and 2 on a 600.

Im struggling to get the 600 to turn tight and im finding when turning into junctions its running too wide.

Im in the stage where i spend 70% of the lesson at 30 mph riding around housing estates that have loads of junctions etc.

My instructor is saying Clutch back brake and throttle.

I understand that I have to apply some back brake and slip the clutch and apply some throttle. and also press down on the inside bar.

Although I fully understand all of this and I know how to do each thing im finding it very hard to put it all together and create nice tight turns.

I have either the tendancy to pull the clutch in too far and loose drive, or to shut off the throttle. and then because of this I have a slight fear everytime I pull out of a junction, target fixate on the edge of the road and then go wide!

Its the way my brain is programmed by driving a car for years, ie its either brake or throttle not both at the same time.

I was just wondering if this is a common thing to struggle with?

I must admit ive spent the entire time being really frustrated cos I want to be better than I am, and it feels a little like i need to calm down and just not rush it.
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pinkyfloyd
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PostPosted: 19:28 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

It happens as you turn sometimes. Sometimes as you pull the bars to turn your clutch hand pulls the clutch in, should it be turning left where you subconsciously squeeze the clutch, or turning right where your fingers feel stretched.

A cure I use is push the bars rather than pull the bars to turn. EG Turning to the left push the right hand forward, tuck the left elbow into your side. Turning right, push the left bar forward and tuck the right elbow into your side.

Most important thing is to turn your head.
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illuminateTHEmind wrote: I am just more evolved than most of you guys... this allows me to pick of things quickly which would have normally taken the common man years to master
Hockeystorm65:.well there are childish arguments...there are very childish arguments.....there are really stupid childish arguments and now there are......Pinkfloyd arguments!
Teflon-Mike:I think I agree with just about all Pinky has said.
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mas101
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PostPosted: 19:45 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Is this when turning from a standstill or when moving?

I've had the same from standstill which seems to be letting the clutch out too quickly - I'm putting this down as needing experience.

I'm not sure about this use of the rear brake and throttle together business?
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Pete.
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PostPosted: 19:52 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Little bit of power, control your speed with the back brake.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 21:32 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

4 days on a 125? Urine is being extracted.

You're being instructed to over-think it. You can do u-turns and wiggly stuff using either the clutch or the rear brake. Using both is unnecessary both for the purposes of passing the tests, and now that I think about it, for the real world as well. Car drivers aren't taught heel-toe shifting.

Before you do anything else, ask the instructor to demonstrate, on the 600 that you've been riding. I await a "Hmm, let's go petrol station and check the tyre pressures."
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Deadonkey
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PostPosted: 22:07 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not days.
It's done in 90 min lessons.
So I get 15 lessons in total.
I've had 6 so far, 4 of which were on a 125
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pinkyfloyd
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PostPosted: 23:58 - 03 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Silly DAS course is silly, you'll never get it together in 90 minutes at a time.

A DAS course should be intensive to get the benefit out of it, ours is typically 6-7 hours a day spread over 3 days with tests on separate days from the training, 4 days if you are doing a CBT also.
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illuminateTHEmind wrote: I am just more evolved than most of you guys... this allows me to pick of things quickly which would have normally taken the common man years to master
Hockeystorm65:.well there are childish arguments...there are very childish arguments.....there are really stupid childish arguments and now there are......Pinkfloyd arguments!
Teflon-Mike:I think I agree with just about all Pinky has said.
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Deadonkey
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PostPosted: 00:40 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinkyfloyd wrote:
Silly DAS course is silly, you'll never get it together in 90 minutes at a time.

A DAS course should be intensive to get the benefit out of it, ours is typically 6-7 hours a day spread over 3 days with tests on separate days from the training, 4 days if you are doing a CBT also.


I will eventually get it together, Im quite limited in local schools and this school has got quite a few young lads at work through their tests, when ive struggled to get them through their apprenticeship. So they must be doing something right.

Would I prefer to have it more intensive? yeah maybe a bit it would be nice to have double lessons so 3 hours then I could have one lesson and a little rest then go back out after a review. But it is what it is and ive got to make the best of it, get through my tests and then teach myself all over again, if it was anything like learning to drive a car that was very much like that.
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M.C
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PostPosted: 00:54 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've never got along with controlling the bike with the rear brake, I just use the clutch. Until you develop the clutch control it can be a bit dodgy.
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 01:00 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

OK, you are being taught a technique, called 'slip & drag'.
Its a HORRIBLE HORRIBLE bit of 'fudge'.
Bear with me and let me explain, what your instructor probably hasn't.

99.9999% of the time, if you were to pull in the clutch, during a maneuver, he'd slap our wrists. No drive means no control. So you don't for example, pull in the clutch and 'coast' down hills.. by the book you are not in full control. You don't, slowing for a junction, pull in the clutch, and do all your slowing on the brakes; again, you are NOT under full control, and you are 'wasting' the potential for 'engine braking' whilst you do it.

SO! When moving, clutch should be 'out' for all but that brief moment you need to change gear, in order you are under drive and in 'full' control.

NOW you are being asked to forget all that, and to 'supposedly' demonstrate GOOD control.. pull the damn clutch in... and ride.. relatively for an extended period, with the damn thing neither nor in nor out! Eh?!?!

Yeah, it is an anomaly.....

OK, you have experience of the little YBR125. Its a 10bhp lightweight commuter. 10bhp engines DON'T deliver 10bhp, in fact they seldom will. They ONLY deliver 10bhp, with the throttle wide open, and the engine spinning to peak power revs, probably about 10,000 on the YBR. So it makes approx 1bhp per 1000rpm, so 1bhp at tickover, 2 at 2ooo, 3 at 3ooo, etch up to the red line.

Now, gearing. Top gear is set so that the bike can do apox 60mph n to at r near peak power revs, because it takes pretty much all the possible 10hp to go 60mph. So maybe 6mph pr 1000 revs.

Ths means eve in top gear, you can probably go as slow as 6mph.... would probably judder a lot tryg to go that slow in top.... BUT, thats what the gear ratio comes down to.

Now change down, and in 1st gear, the reduction is such that you are probably gong to be reving the crackers of the poor little thing, to get to up much over 20, maybe 25mph.. rato n 2st s more likely around 2.5mph per 1000, so at tick-over thing can probably 'drive' clutch out at a speed that would make a school boy who's forgot thier home-work's walking pace seem 'fast'!

Normal walking pace is 3-4mph, and so bike that clutch out an go as slow as 2-2.5mph at tick-over doesn't have ANY problem goig slowly or letting you do slow-speed manouvers.

NOW.. get a big bike (You didn't say what g bke, so I'm goig to offer example of) like an XJ600 Diversion. This now has 60bh, and is geared in top for something like 120mph; still revs to somethng like 10K, so 12mph per 1000 revs,. Change down, and same deal, reduction lowers speed at the red line, and now first will probably take you to something like 40mph. The rato is twice as tall, because the top speed is twce as high, AND you still only have the same mber of gears, so you have to space them out a bit, and first can go 'up' a lot, because you have 6x the power, therfore 6x the force to make it move, you dont need as much reduction to make up for lack of power and get t moving, potetially on a hill, 2-up loaded with luggage.

BUT... now, 4mph per 1000 revs.... ick-over is likely going to drive you 4-5mph, a fast walking pace verging on a trot,, it WILL not go much slower, and f you try, you risk making t stall.

SO.. we get to the dreaded 'slip'n'drag'... which is basicaly a way t 'defeat' the gearbox.. it wont let you go slower than 5mph, with the clutch out... so you pull the clutch n, and let it slip... you now give it some revs so t wont stall, and modulate the power to the back wheel, on how much you let the clutch 'ride'.. and hole it back on the back brake, so it wont go faster than you want it to, whilst you jicggle clutch ad throttle.

Good Grief Penfold! THREE damn controls, being 'jiggled', throttle, cltch and back brake... and breaking the RULES that you cant be in 'full control'unless you have the clutch out!!! In order to... err.. what? Oh yeah, 'cheat' the gearbox and go half a mile an huor to a mile an hour SLOWER through the comes... WHY cant the instructor keep up!

Actually I probably couldn't, but still.... Point IS its actually breaking all the usual rules, that you cant be in full control f you have the clutch in. And t IS making a meal of the job, givig you a HELL of a lot of extra work to do, jigglig three cotrols instead of just one, merely to go that 'tad' slower... compared to ridng it 'clean' clutch out n FULL control using the throttle alone.

It is NOT repeat NOT an example of 'fine machine control'. I sports where fine machine control is important, like trials ridng or stunting IF they want a bike to go that slow, they DONT fanny about with the clutch brake and throttle tryng to 'cheat' the gears.... they CHANGE THE GEARS! And trials bikes ad stunt bkes usually have HUGE rear heel sprockets to lower the overall drive rato.. I think my 250 comp-trials bike has a first gear that tops out at something daft like 5mph.. 2nd doesn't take me much faster, less than 10mph... actually has six gears... three of them are almost 'ordinary' gears, but the three bottom ones are 'under drives'! I dont thnk it wll actually go much more than 30mph in 3rd! SO, if you really want a bike to go THAT slow, for 'slow speed maneuvers'.. THAT is how you do it properly! Believe me, on section the heat of competition, trying to ride a motorbike where mountain goats fear to tread, negotiatng a tricky gate, on a hill, n the mud, I am NOT effing about reving the motor, slippng the clutch and holdng t back o the brakes! I am riding it CLEAN clutch out, on the throttle alone!

Slip'n'Drag IS a fudge.. on a bigger road bike, that does't have such low gears, to 'cheat' the gearbox and go a LITTLE slower.. very very occasionally.... so occasionally on the road you should NEVER need to.. if you need to.. and even when you might, there's probably a better way to do t.. like get off the bludy bike and PUSH it where you want it!

IT IS however, a 'fudge' that has been brought to training via DAS training, where, under DAS rules you cant ride big bike solo unsupervised, you have to be under instruction, whch denies the hours of self pactce you used to be able to get on your own 125. And getting a student up to sped, and performing slow speed manovers, Slip'n'Dag IS a quick trick, to help get a student doing, and get confidence up..... Which in your case, struggling is rather failing to do..... but could save an awful lot of traning te, to get a student doing and dong well enough to move on and not stalled, practcng and struggling with all the slow speed stff, but getting on and getting to tests.

In the last twenty years it has become endemic, and it s ow so accepted and so many have learned to ride via DAS even many instrctors DONT know that Slip'n'Drag, is 'wrong', that t isn't the 'best' way to do slow speed maneuvers, let alone not the only way to do them.

And even where they may, it is defended that t is a excersse in cotrol.... see above it is NOT.... OK, it is a demonstration of control dexterty..... err yeah.. like rubbng your tummy ad patting your head.... EXACTLY..... something you would NEVER do..... Prec... hang on! Yo HAVE to do it..... yes, on test, like a perfoming seal, JUST to show the examiner you can.....

Well, they lay down the rules! If they said you had to do it n a pnk tu-to with a ping-pog ball on your nose... that's what you'd have to do!

DOESN'T mean ts a great way to try ridng a motorbike, OR that it's ecesserily the best.

Yup.. slip and effng drag is like nails down a chalk-board to me! And its made worse by fact so many are taught t blndly and the people teaching it should, UT dont now any better.

YOU now do.....

And nfortnately you STILL have to do t! Like the red-nose and tu-tu... its in the test.

On the road? Pobably never have to... can f you want, once you have learned, whether its best still remains in question.

OH-Kay.. somethng of more practical help.....

Tight turns.. bikes steer be leaning... going slow, YOU probably wont like to lean one, especially a bigger heavier one.

NOW, if you keep it upright, to make the same angle of turn, you will have to turn the handlebars further and punt the front wheel at more of an angle.... But back wheel is tryng to push you along, and in a straight line, and worse, the steerg geometry is tryig to push the steerig straight with it.. and the more you turn, the more the back will psh ad try and straigte the turn.. the more you will want to slow, and the LESS you will want to lean. Its a self defeatig cycle.

BUT bikes turn by tiltng! Let the damn thig lean, you will get FAR more steering for far les effort than tryng to hold it up ad turn the bars. Now back wheel is pushig still, but with less lock o the bars, it wont be tryng to straighte them, you wot be fghtig the bike so much, and it WILL go roud a heck of a lot more easily...

HINT, opening the throttle tries to make a bike 'stand up'.. its not the speed, its the acceleration. And works the other way, close the throttle, you ca push the bike over more easily.

SO! completely ignorng slip'n'drag.... you want bike to make tight turn... you get it up to speed, you pont it at the corner, and toy ROLL OFF... that lets you push the bike down, nto the turn, and make it lean.. NOW it is turning.... let it get you where you want to be going.. then, pick it back up, wth the throttle... accelerate UT of the tr to make the bike stand up, and straighten the steering back up...

Swoop and Droop.. in tip, turn, up and out.

THAT is how a motorbike goes around a corner.... wide Or tight, slow or fast.. THAT is the echanics of t.

You want to do that, you want to do that slow, and you want to do it tight.... so, do it slow do it tight... UT its ALL oj the throttle, NOT the handlebars, and it DEPENDS on yo having that 'faith' and 'confidence' to tip the damn thing over and MAKE it lean.

This is fundemental.... and If you were my student, I wouldn't be wasting my time pssing about tryng to get you doig Slip and drag U'turns, you are oviousely struggling with... But on the yard doing CBT cones excesises, JUST tryng to get you to lean the bike ad learn to steer properly.

I would probably, as I abhor the damn practce, NOT even introdce you to slp'n'drag, untl I had to... and would try ad get you doing as much slow speed stuff, 'clean' cltch out, under full control and full drve.... THEN asking you to try ad get the speed down, do it slowe, and slower,until you started t struggle, THEN I might explain S'n'D and show you how it works, ad I woldn';t give it to you on the U-Turn, I would get you dog S'n'D n a straight line on the play-ground, JUST to get a feel for THAT partcular bit of tummy rubing head patting, until it became 'natural' and you might be able to start applyng t during more cone manouvers, and EVENTUALLY the U-Turn... which is a bgger MANY student sstruggle with.... without strggling o tight turns, and wthout struggling with Slip and effing Drag at the same time.

Many instructors have different techniques for helping students with U-Turns.. but usual advice is head up, where you look is where you go.... and that is a mantra you NEED to absorb, it doesn't just apply to U-Turns.

Usual issue with U-Turns, ad see comments about tilt to turn.... These come back on the huey.

Typical student starts off in normal riidng position, slightly left of centre of lane. as they aproach the turn pont, lookig AT the turn pot they naturally drift towards the center f the lane. Then as they start to turn, they struggle to make it turn tight ad by the time thy have got it round 90deg... they have run out of road, ad have he front wheel up against the opposite kurb.

Oh-Kay... First up, remember tilt to turn, THAT is how you will get t round a tight turn...

Next, DONT look at the bludy cone in the middle that is NOT where you want to go!

On the aproach.. 'glance' where you want to go, but then, o the aproach to the turn point DONT tun RIGHT... turn LEFT... where you look is where you go.. look at the kerb on the left hand side of you, get the bike into that space! Dont waste it.

Now the bke is right over to the left, you have SO much more room to make your turn, and you DONT have to make it so tight, SO before you run into left hand kerb, look for the cone, accelerate a little, make the bike sit up, and as it does roll off, and push t down to make it steer right, and now, keep looking and beyond the cone to where you want the bike to go straight, let the bike roll 'in' with lean to make the bottom of the turn, then as you see your exit, GENTLY wind o throttle, let it accelerate let it pick the bike up for you, and agan, carry that round a little bit further than you need and jink it back into the straght, to get your lane pssition back.

Its NOT a 'U' its a bell-flast, left right, left, NOT a smple right hand all the way around. first left makes space for turn, second gets your lane position back, BUT you make the most room on the road to make the turn in, and you DONT run the risk of wastig it ad runig ot of t, WHILST you use the tilt to turn to MAKE the bike lay down and make a tight tur for you, you dont fght it tryg to hold it up, doing it all on the bars.

That is how you do it... and its a few techniqes all pluled together.... which are probably better learned seperately.

- Tilt-to-Turn
- U-Turns
- Slip'n'Drag

If you are struggling, I would ask for ore tme o the pan to practice. if you aren't doing t there already, BUT, if your nstructors aren't inclined to sggested... then I WOULD suggest, you tell them that you WLD like to get the hang of this Slip'n'Drag, on ts own, before going on, and could you have time to ptactice t on the yard, and do it in a straight line, then maybe through some simpler excersises like the cone slalom, and maybe less severe 90 deg turns left and right, before takling the Huey.

On the huey... once you have got more confident on the slow speed handling, then they will possibly have thier own tick, BUT that bell-jar technique works, ad if you are on the pan, a couple of extra cones, set on the kerbs, about half as far forward of the turn cone as turn coe s fro kerb, to give you targets to make the room makng jinks, can help a lot, until you have fixed the dea your head and ca do without them.


But bottom line... YUP... U-Turs is a manouver an AWFUL lot of students DO struggle n, and it is one that can, waste entire days of DAS training trying to nail, if a student cant wrap thier hea around it.

And I WILL say, that time a car will lkely NOT have helped much, you will likely have a lot of ar driver habbts to break, for whatever existng road-know you may have, AND on the tlt to turn, and the resstance to lan, tryg t make it turn like a car turning bars like you do a sterig wheel, PROBABLY isn't helping, and is ALSO oh-so-common...

So too, will likely be instructor 'nagging' you to do propper shoulder chcks and rear obs, where you have ecome mirror depndent in the box, AND t cancel indicators, where you, again are likely accustmed to self cancelling indes in a car.

Just remember to put your foot down when you stop.... I HAVE actually had a car driving student do that! They find it amusing " forgot I was on the bike! I wondered what was happening when it started to topple, THEN I remembered!".. which is a good thing to remember, it IS supposed to be fun, DONT forget t laugh!
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 01:05 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
If you were my student

He's not though, because you're not a DAS certified instructor and you never were. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I seem to recall that you weren't even a DSA registered down-trained CBT instructor, but more of an unofficial assistant / tea boy.

Can you produce anything showing that you were ever DSA registered or certified to provide any training?

By which I mean: please do produce it.

Teflon-Mike wrote:
I HAVE actually had a car driving student do that!

Still talking in the present tense about something that you haven't done for a decade?
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike
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Deadonkey
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PostPosted: 01:38 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Im not saying Im struggling with a U Turn, although im sure i would, Im not talking the slow speed that you would take mod 1 type stuff at.

Im having issues turning the bike tight enough to do normal housing estate turns, you know the type 10-15mph stuff. left and right turns, round mini roundabouts. Its all going way too wide.

pulling out of junctions to turn right is an issue but thats just target fixation.

I was fine on the 125, i simply carried on as normal, clutch fully out, bit of throttle and back brake around the corner.

it was when I moved onto the 600 where these sorts of turns went wide.
My instructors are saying because of the bigger bikes power i need to use the clutch and slip it.

Im guessing its because im so tense on the bike, i mean im not exactly relaxed and am holding the grips way too tight which obviously isnt helping.

But to get the confidence to throw the bike into a corner while loosely having hold of it,,,, i dunno im not quite there yet.


Whatever they are trying to teach me isnt what the majority of motorcyclists are doing im guessing, when ive said clutch back brake and throttle to the lads with bikes at work they have no idea why im being asked to do that, but suggest I keep doing what the school is saying at the moment.

It seems to be a technique that you guys here arnt doing day to day
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 02:06 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Don't sweat it, you only just had enough time to get used to the 125 then switched to a bike that requires a lot more input.

If I ride my 250 for a few days then switch to my 800, I'll often have an "Ooops!" moment where I'll run wide until I remember to give it more lean, shift my weight, and/or put more pressure on the bars.

And I do often slip the clutch on my bigger bike where I wouldn't do so on the lower powered ones. Or I might drag the rear brake if I'm taking a roundabout a bit quicker. Both at once, well, maybe for novelty, but it's not necessary. I got by for years barely touching the rear brake.

Don't worry. Doing it in 90 minute chunks is going to make it tough for you to get used to the bike. That's no reflection on you. Try slipping the clutch, or dragging the brake, see what works best for you on that bike, and just stick with that. You don't need to be preparing for moto-gymkhana, just getting through your tests, then you can spend as much time as you like learning on your own bike.

Feel free to have a frank conversation with your instructor if you believe that he's trying to over-train you in the short time available. We do hear about instructors who are more interested in riding a bike, showing off their 'advanced' techniques or just plain berating people than in actually delivering instruction tailored to the learner. Remember, you're a paying customer, not some wayward schoolkid.

By the way, I am serious about checking the tyre pressures on the training bike. You'll have been told during your CBT to do it, so do it.

Just keep at it, it'll click, and you'll wonder what the fuss was about.
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Teflon-Mike
tl;dr



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PostPosted: 04:22 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Deadonkey wrote:
It seems to be a technique that you guys here arnt doing day to day

Oh-Kay....
Well, sounds then like you are being offered slip'n'drag as a bit of a placebo, to get you 'dong' on DAS time.. and it's not really working.
It is a technique that is becoming more and more and more common, as it's been promoted through DAS over the last 20 years.
How many regularly slip'n'Drag on the road regularly... hard to say... It's not something you should need, but as many have been taught it as 'first course' I suspect many do use it that way.
And I will confess to the hypocracy, that I do use it... not habitually, and usually for 'other reasons'... rather than slow speed maneuvers.
Eg; for the U-Turn where it's most often taught, I almost never use it.

For making generic turns on housing estates, or on mini-roundabouts?

Yeah.. I can see where and why it might be offered.... mini-rouds particularly... they can be a bt of a bludger.

In a car you will likely ignore the white dot, ad drive over it, as the road isn't wide enough to go 'round' it.

On a bike, and on test, you will be expected NOT to take that 'lazy line'.. and make distict attempt to go 'around' the dot.

NOW; mini-rounds are notorious; and too many driver's ignore the altered priorities, and you can never be sure that they will yield right of way.. or if they have even seen you, and even if they have, they've seen indicators on a bike... and going that half bikes length 'further' forwards, before turning, on one, does offer a mixed signal, and they WILL frequently presume that your NOT turning straight away and not cutting the dot, implies you ARE going straight on, and they will come tanking through....

So I am always very very cautious on them, a) that any oncoming traffic HAS actually seen me, especially if am 'curbing' towards the left to line up and give myself room to make the turn, and there's a larger vehicle in front, obscuring the line of sight & oncoming vehicle may not see me, or think, I have turned 'left', or cant see right hand indy.

Then, I am very tardy to 'commit' to the turn, and keep the bike very upright, for as long as I can, so that if and when, and it is more often when, oncoming vehicle, fails to yield priority, I have the space to brake and or stop,n a straight line, I'm not teetering, and in a situation where I have started t turn, and taking a fistful of brake, would have me likely go down... so I keep it up, I go WAY into the roundy 'straight' and make sure, any oncoming actually stops for me, and/or I have the lea-way to grab a fist of front, bang a boot down, and let them sail past having 'stolen' priority.. wheich even if they have seen you, and even if they have seen indy, ad even if they haven't read any mixed signal, and know you are there, know what you are dong and KNOW its your right of way, many are STILL inclined to do.... especially if the bike has an L-Plate!

So I tip-toe into mini rounds a lot of the time, especially on busier bult-up roads, ad I happen to live on one, with a school on either end, that T's onto the main 'artery' between the two man roads in and out of town, with a mini on it! It's like twice every time I go out at the very least! Yup, try and avoid 3pm to 4pm! Its HORRIBLE! Citeon pcasso things every damn where!

However, that situation gives a 'problem', in so much as I am trying to make a tight 90 deg turn, from almost a dead stop, with no speed to ti it in to turn, and little or no room to roll forwards and get some mentum before I try.....

It IS better, if you are going to stop, and for you, probably an absolute to do it further back, before the dot as if giving way to some-one from the right, so that you do have that extra bikes length to accelerate n to, roll off as soon as bikes moving, and use that de-celeration to tip the bike in, and then accelerate out again, in tilt-to turn tight turn.

What I do, would be very frowned on on test, as I would apparently be making progress, but at the same time 'hesitant', and possibly failing to observe the give-way.... Which is when we get away from do as I do into do as I say... BUT, in that situation, I am covering the ack brake anyway, I am trying very hard to keep it rolling and not put a foot down and properly stop, and so, I will use slip and drag to get the bike to keep moving THAT slow, and dong almost all on pure balence

So, as said, it 'can' be useful, but.. its not best practice, and very circumstance dependent, where it may be useful, and where employing it may be lesser of evils.

Back to where you are at... Yeah.. on a mini-roud or an uncertain intersection, possibly un-marked, or on a housing estate where there are potentially other hazards. like mini-round at top of my street, it MAY be an appropriate or valid techniqe to employ... not a generic one sze fits all one though.

And I would advise, if you are struggling with it, to ask for time on the play-ground to do 'just' Slip'n'drag, starting with the principle of under-driving the gearbox, to go slower than gears will allow, in a straight line, and you may find it easier to get rollng frst, get walking pace clutch out, then bring it down on slip and drag, then try some manouvers and see if it 'helps'.

Meanwhile T-Junctions and Mini-Rounds.... Tip-To-Turn.. it does sound like you are loath to lean, AND tryg to take a lazy line, in consequence.

Remember what I said, If you are loath to lean, you will struggle to make a tighter turn; yo will need more bar steering to get the same angle of turn, and you will be in that hyatus, fightig the bike, trying to make it turn whilst the bike tries to go straight, and less throttle making the bike want to st up more, and not lean, and not turn, and consequently making a wider line than you want.... A-N-D likely predicting having to, so lining up to take a wide line, before you begin.

A-N-D its another car driver habbit to try and cut corners.... There's an ingloriouse example junction of it near town I encounter regularly. Traffic light controlled T. Two lanes to each top-lane, one lane ether side.

Sat in the minor branch of the T, lights let left turn traffic next to me 'out' whilst letting right turn traffc from my left 'in'... and I can garuntee, almost nine out f ten cars wll start turning from where they are stopped, or where the lead car was stopped AT the stop line... rather than go one or two cars lengths forward first, and so they turn and suddenly realise that they are driving across the right turn lane coming out of the road they are turning into.. and they have to suddenly straghten up, go straght ad then make second turn when they are past my lane, into their exit.

Probably seven out of ten have to make that double turn, and one ofthe, like the one who tries to make it round in one wide line, suddenly realises as they have got 'in' to thier exit lane, that they have run out of road room, and probably has to make two more 'jnks' to get t poited straight p the road they want to go up and dodge oncoming traffic and curb, and get it back n the center of lane!

They make a HASH of it, nine times out of ten... AND it's ironic that what started out as simle sloppy lazy drivng proves so much hard work for them!

IF ONLY, they had driven a cars length forwards beyond the stop line, used the effing steerng wheel and made ONE smple tghter turn, they would have done it with far less effort, far less risk, far more smoothly and almost vertainly far faster.

And on a bike... that is the key. And another car driver habit worth breaking.. 'the lazy line'.

On a bike.. leaning is fun.. its what bikes do!, BUT, the longer they are tipped over, the more you are ramping risks.

Further you travel tipped over, more chance you are gong to go over a surface irregularity or change of surface, a patch of grease or gravel (Especially on a unction) 'something' that will upset the balence, you are trying to hold. Upright the bike has 'some' better stablity and you have better chance of mantaining that stabiity AND best control to do it.

SO, if you have a choice far better to go 'deep' into a corner, and keep the bike as upright as you can, as long as you can, make ONE tighter turn, and get it over with, fast, and then back upright, and headng where you want, than taking a long lazy line, dragging it out, and ncreasng the chances you will have something catch you a cropper, lik the change in camber or gravel wash, or a deseasil spill, or whatever.

So; square the corner; when you aproach a junction, don't fixate on the stop line; and start your turn fro there; pick your point of no return. If you are turning right, out of a T for example, kep calm, ride to your stop line, do our obs, do your checks, make sure you are in gear, and are clear.. then DONT RUSH (little mantra of mie I us a LOT) RDE to your pot of no return n a straight line, probably the median divider or white line of traffic from the right, get past that, dont ride into it! Turn and turn tight AT the line, make it one turn, make it delierate, make it confident, get t over with and get it up and potig where you want to go, and upright again as soon as.

Don't tip-toe it, on the lazy line, hesitant, correcting re-correcting tryig to hold it up, but not up, and tending to fight the bike, drift even wider etc etc etc.

TIGHT TURN.. one turn, neat tidy clean, and ONLY when you have to, DONT turn your corners before you have to! Go in that bit further, give yourself that space, when you aren't committed, and upright you ca use the cntrol yo have to stop or change what your doing if needs be... take a breath be sure you have gone in deep enough... THEN DO it, and get it over with, no messing.

Works well on a tiddler too!

IF you are struggling on cornering, AND slip and drag.. seperatig out the techniques, agai, you MAY want to ask f you can do a few rod the block excersises on the tiddler again, try it out, get that tight turn nailed.

On the big bike play-ground practice at tight turns might be useful, before putting it into practice on the road, BUT, go deep my friend, go deep....

What gender are you BTW? I was going to type 'Go deep my son'.. but something tells me you may not be a bloke?!?!

Anyway, again, it is another common newb niggle, and lazy lines are another typical car driver habit.. ad 'tip to turn' tight turn confidence, is a key skill, and is slip'n'drag isn't helping, go-deep is likely to, and probably more., and in more situations. Whether the two would work for you combined? Hum-Hrr.. like I said, I will go deep and slip and drag on the min-round at top of street, in a lesser evils scenario.. CAN work... but it shouldn't be first go-to .

Rogerborg wrote:
you're not a DAS certified instructor and you never were.


Roger.. something I haven't done in a decade is still something you haven't done..... one of many, on a motorcycle, I suspect. In fact, come to think of it.. beyond CBT, have you even had any formal training, in what is it now, four years you have had an unrestricted licence?

Much as you have an 'issue' with, well, it would seem any 'authority' or even opinion that appears authoritative.. Rog... you do know that that is, that s your problem.. I didn't make it, I damn well don't own it, I sure as hell see little point in helping you perpetuate it. That's your's, deal with it.

Meanwhile, how to make a motorbike go round a corner, hasn't changed in my life time as far as I know; whatever qualifications I might or might not have either in the pycics or engineering of vehicles, designing them, building them or in using them, or in teaching people to use them, ins't really germane to the advice offered; You want to challenge the advice, challenge the advice, not the 'authority'.

Do you have any reason to believe that suggested techniques are wrong? Dangerous? Flawed?

Do you have any better suggestion how OP can improve their cornering technique?
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Ste
Not Work Safe



Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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PostPosted: 08:06 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Were you a certified DAS instructor ten years ago?

Back to the OP, imo you shouldn't need to be slipping the clutch, just use the throttle and if necessary the rear brake.

Keep it simple. Using the rear brake whilst slipping the clutch, applying some throttle and pressing down on the inside bar is just making things complicated for the sake of being complicated.

You're fighting to figure out the correct balance of all those things at the same time when all you really need to be doing is to be at the correct speed before starting to turn and then you can just control the bike speed through the corner using the throttle. Master the basics and the rest will come later. Thumbs Up

As Roger says you can ask the instructor to demonstrate it on the bike you're using if you want. With all the fucking around over slipping the clutch whilst applying enough rear brake and enough throttle when moving the optimum mount of body weight onto the inside bar, I wonder if what gear you're using is being over looked.
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pinkyfloyd
Super Spammer



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PostPosted: 08:25 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Come on down to Portsmouth for a week, You'll have a full licence before you leave Laughing
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Ste
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PostPosted: 08:33 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Location: Carlisle

Doh!
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Deadonkey
Borekit Bruiser



Joined: 04 Aug 2012
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PostPosted: 10:06 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

pinkyfloyd wrote:
Come on down to Portsmouth for a week, You'll have a full licence before you leave Laughing


I couldn't be much further away unfortunately Rolling Eyes
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 14:23 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
Were you a certified DAS instructor ten years ago?

He's never been any sort of certified, qualified, or accredited instructor at all, which is why he's so touchy about the subject.

More of a voluntary ersatz deputy assistant backup helper, standing on the pad and lecturing learners with his own special brand of wisdom, whether they wanted it or not.

I wonder how much more quickly Snowie would have got her license without the benefit of 1-to-1 tuition.
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Nobby the Bastard
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PostPosted: 14:35 - 04 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
Ste wrote:
Were you a certified DAS instructor ten years ago?

He's never been any sort of certified, qualified, or accredited instructor at all, which is why he's so touchy about the subject.

More of a voluntary ersatz deputy assistant backup helper, standing on the pad and lecturing learners with his own special brand of wisdom, whether they wanted it or not.

I wonder how much more quickly Snowie would have got her license without the benefit of 1-to-1 tuition.


One word to describe Teffer's teaching skilz.

'Smiler'
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AshWebster
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PostPosted: 15:31 - 06 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

From my very limited experience and being in your situation not long ago - I'd say you need to lean a bit. When I say lean I don't mean knee down I mean just slightly to get the curve of the cornering right.

Anybody else agree?
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Holdawayt
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PostPosted: 17:19 - 06 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

AshWebster wrote:
From my very limited experience and being in your situation not long ago - I'd say you need to lean a bit. When I say lean I don't mean knee down I mean just slightly to get the curve of the cornering right.

Anybody else agree?


Well yeah... that's like saying he needs to turn the engine on if he wants to get moving. You're not going to turn a bike without leaning it a little bit.
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UncleFester
World Chat Champion



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PostPosted: 17:53 - 06 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

When you are slower riding, try sitting forward a bit - brings the bars ( and levers ) that little bit closer to you. Also ... relax. No use pushing with one hand if you're too tense with the other.

As far as bite point goes - learn it with your eyes shut and by the sound / vibration alone. Then you don't need to be looking at the rev counter trying to pre-empt a stall.

Anything more than a fast walking pace and 2nd gear / bit of throttle and a slip of the clutch will be fine. Unless you were stationary to begin with.

Bigger bike is heavier / just needs a mite more effort / input to control blah blah etc etc.

And as above, you really need to get a few back to back lessons in so you are doing a few hours at a time to really get a feel for it.
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Bozzy
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Joined: 20 Dec 2015
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PostPosted: 18:07 - 06 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Holdawayt wrote:
AshWebster wrote:
From my very limited experience and being in your situation not long ago - I'd say you need to lean a bit. When I say lean I don't mean knee down I mean just slightly to get the curve of the cornering right.

Anybody else agree?


Well yeah... that's like saying he needs to turn the engine on if he wants to get moving. You're not going to turn a bike without leaning it a little bit.


It's a fairly valid point. OP is used to driving a car where the only input required to change direction is turning the wheel. If the OP is sat dead centre and as stiff as a board along with only moving the bars, he's going to struggle.

OP, be loose with the bars. Relax, move around the seat a little. Look where you want to go. Enjoy the skills you a learning rather than pressuring yourself unnecessarily.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 19:10 - 06 Mar 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

And having got used to the 125, he's now got to re-learn the amount of lean for the 600. Knee down!
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