Cat C vs Cat D vs intact used bikes?

[Azoth]

Can anyone help to explain why I'm seeing so many nearly immaculate 'Cat C' and occasionally 'Cat D' bikes on Ebay, which typically go for wisebuyer's 'Private Average' price when the hammer falls? Supposedly 'salvage', 'spares or repair' and 'damaged'..
Been looking for a project bike, and bidding and watching quite a few of these. I don't understand how, if a bike has just one broken indicator and a very, very lightly scratched exhaust, it can be classed as a Cat C. I've actually seen some of these bikes in person. Usually, it's obvious they've been stood up for a long time, often outdoors. Then the seller, running a sideline as an insurance company (?), puts them up for sale as Cat C (usually). The trouble with these bikes is, they aren't what I would call a Cat C. About 80% of them are as good as any unwritten-off used bike of the same age. I've even seen a bike, in person, sold by one of these 'salvage' sellers that was the best example of its type that I'd ever seen, with no damage at all, yet was a 'Cat C' with 'accident related damage' (maybe a tiny scratch under the chromed exhaust if you had a microscope and were a forensic expert). It just screamed 'scam', but then what do I know? Tbh I'm confused about how this works. Cat C should mean a project bike -something that needs fixing, more than just having indicators replaced by Chinese Ebay specials.
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Safety in numbers

[Pete.]

Scratch on a frame - category. Broken plastics - category. Chunk out of the engine casing - category.

Doesn't stop the bike being a bike. People have wised up to the fact that light damage caused by being knocked over by a car is no different to light damage by rolling off the stand or dropping it at the pump and are no longer scared away by the words 'total loss or 'write-off'.

They should be cheaper though. Why would you pay the same for a total loss as for a bike with no chequered history. I guess it's market-driven like everything especially now when your pound doesn't buy you so much. A nice used bike is very tempting cat C/D or not.
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a.k.a 'Geri'

132.9mph off and walked away. Gear is good, gear is good, gear is very very good

[Azoth]

Makes sense, thanks. Yes, if you're looking for a bike to actually use, ride and enjoy, it would make a lot of sense to buy of those. But what if, like me, you're looking for a bike to fix, i.e. a spannering project? Not something silly like a vintage British bike, but something that's been in a crash or has been vandalised to the point where it isn't viable for someone to just replace mirrors/indicators and ride into the future? Where do you get an actually crashed, but not completely wrecked, Cat C bike?
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Safety in numbers

[Kickstart]

Hi

Check the cost of replacing the damaged parts (however barely damaged) with new parts. Can get frightening.

For example a new original silencer for an early Suzuki 1200 Bandit (which comes including the link pipe) is £812. Couple of indicators (£46 each from Suzuki) and levers and falling off the stand will easily be £1k in parts.

All the best

Katy
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Traxpics, track day and racing photographs - Bimota Forum - Bike performance / thrust graphs for choosing gearing

[Itchy]

Ah but the thing is your used bike that isn't listed on the insurance register as a cat A,B,C or D could well have been involved in a severe bump and been repaired and therefore pretty much the same except for being on the insurance register.

Consider my CBR6FX.

It was never on the insurance listing.

Yet it was involved in a licence losing go straight to prison spill.

https://farm4.static.flickr.com/3284/2541863451_0002762b9a.jpg

The guy I bought a new swing arm off. How the hell did you break your swing arm? How the hell are you still alive?
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Spain 2008France 2007Big one 2009 We all die. The goal isn't to live forever, the goal is to create something that will. In the end, your life will flash before your eyes. Make sure it is worth watching.

[M.C]

It's a scam (unsurprisingly), if they write the bike off they get to add storage and hire charges (at outrageous costs) to the claim.

As for why those bikes go for so much, I really don't know. You need to do a Paddy and get them direct from the crash victim. Recently I saw an MT-03 for sale on gumtree for £600, and a hypermotard on eBay (private seller listing) go for little over a grand*. The problem with them's you need to collect, the salvage peepz will deliver.

*I was crying I didn't have access to a van and/or strong mates

[MahatmaAndhi]

[Azoth]

I must say, it seems that someone must be getting shafted somewhere along the line, and chances are that it's more than one: the person who took out the insurance policy, and the person buying a 'damaged spares or repairs' bike on Ebay. Ebay winning bids seem pretty outrageous on these bikes. So I did a bit of digging, and found that the 'salvage' seller isn't an insurer, but a sort of garage that does repairs and evaluations for insurance companies. They have hundreds in a warehouse, and I guess that the ones deemed uneconomical to fix are written off (by them and the insurance company in cahoots) and sold on the bay.

The thing is, if the bike has a broken swingarm, like Itchy's, you can see that that's what it has. I can search and find out the cost of a replacement swingarm, and work out an appropriate offer for a bike. On the other hand, if you're presented with a 'no warranty' bike, which is essentially what a 'cat C spares or repair' bike from this insurance assessor really is, and all you can wrong with it is a hanging broken indicator, it's not a good deal to pay full whack as people seem to be doing. For all you know, there could be a terminal fault in the crankshaft bearings, or the gears might be minced. The salvage seller, which is also an actual mechanic's garage, doesn't even warrant that the bike will start. So how can the risk merit the high bids these bikes attract? Checked out a few bidders on bidding history, and most of them had bid on other 'salvage' bikes from the same seller, and one or two had bought more than one!? Seems surprising, because at those prices there's no money left to squeeze from those bikes.

I suppose what I could use is an old-school scrapyard. Failing that, a van (which I don't have) and Gumtree, as you say.
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Safety in numbers

[Fizzer Thou]

My FJ1200 was a 'Cat C' write off,mainly because of the damage to the irreplaceable fairing had a few cracks in it.

Essentially,I paid £900 for this bike,which came with new fork legs,a complete set of brake disc pads,a Haynes workshop manual and various other spares.So the bike itself was probably only about £600.

But,having enjoyed riding it around Europe last year,I feel that it has been worth the effort rebuilding it to a roadworthy condition

That story is here https://www.bikechatforums.com/viewtopic.php?t=305318
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Just talk bikes.What else is there?

Always have a 'Plan B'

[Itchy]

[SuperMike]

Went through this a couple of years back with my scooter. Got taken out by a SMIDSY, bike was classed as a Cat C. The tales of storage fees and hire bike charges are true - I think the bill was something like 5 grand for 7 weeks hire of a 125 and about the same again in storage fees. They settled in the end for about half of this, but even so - his insurers would have been better off just buying me a new scooter day one and forgetting about it!

As for the bike itself, most of the panels got pretty scuffed up in the spill. They obviously quotes main dealer prices to replace the lot of it which added up to more than the bike and so it was Cat C'd.

Ended up sitting outside my house under a cover for about a year as I didn't know what to do with it - had got my full licence and a big bike by now so didn't need the scooter. I ordered a complete panel replacement from Thailand - it was genuine stuff, honda stamped, or at least it was a damn good knock off. £150 I think it was for the entire panel kit, the black plastics for the centre console, two mirrors and an exhaust guard.

Never did get around to doing the work myself. Put her on e-bay and within an hour had about 10 blokes all get in touch saying they'd come get it now, £400 cash etc etc. Nearly jumped at it as that seemed like a lot for a Cat C scooter, but a bit of research on recent sales and I sat the week out - Got £900 for her in the end. Coupled with the £1350 the insurers gave me I lost £50 off what it cost me brand new 2 years prior. Go figure.

Given a non written off version of my scooter of a similar age goes for about £1400 on e-bay and £1700 from a dealer, I'm not sure where the profit is for the guy. He was definitely a mechanic type - turned up in a big transit van with all the straps and tools etc inside. Can't imagine him getting more than £1200 for it fixed up as a Cat C. Doesn't seem worth his time.

[Azoth]

Mechanics' time is expensive, and so are replacement parts (even the time spent tracking down used ones) and it does make you wonder how it works and who's really benefiting. Clearly there's an accountancy trick or several up the sleeve of the insurance assessors and mechanics and resellers. Nothing they would volunteer, of course. But there's an old saying - from the Chinese I think. Pay close attention to the small things. When I visited, these guys were fully tatted up, had dyed hair, etc. Not pointing any fingers without evidence, and it could just be a fashion choice and coincidence, of course, but it just makes you wonder whose fingers are in whose pie. Especially in the light of someone, somewhere benefiting from mountainous stockpiles of super-cheap used parts, from the bike theft epidemic.
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Safety in numbers

[myvision]

I got a cat C I replaced the indicator and I am living with the scratches which in all honesty are not that visible.
Bought from MC Surrey Salvage I posted about it on here I was pissed on Ebay. It was advertised as running.
It worked out well for me iv'e definitely had my money back out of it already.
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VFR800FI, YZF600R Thundercat and FZS 1000

[SophR so good]

One thing to bear in mind is that these categories are not really based on actual damage. I had an engineer look at mine for about 30 seconds and he decided that cracked fairing = bent forks, possible twisted frame, fucked wheel bearings, cat C. It's really just cosmetic damage and replacement clipon needed. The company who would take and sell it wouldn't have a clue what's actually wrong.
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You win again, gravity! - Zap Brannigan, BCF BBQ 2016

[M.C]

It should be (as far as I'm aware) Cat D = damage less than the value of the bike but still uneconomical to repair, Cat C = damage greater than the value of the bike. However as SophR says they use whatever they feel like, a Cat C can have hardly any damage and a D massive damage.

All it really affects is the salvage value, I wouldn't buy a Cat D thinking its been in a less serious accident than a C.

[Groove]

my speed triple is a cat d and I bought it from one of these salvage places.

only damage was the ignition barrel had been broken but they 'fixed' it. it's basically been glued. the ignition key is however different to the fuel tank and seat key, which they didn't tell me about and I only found out after driving nearly 5 hours to get it.
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|| Past: 1991 Kawasaki ZXR 250 ~ 2003 Honda CBR 600 F Sport ~ 2004 Kawasaki ZX6R B1H 636 ~ 1999 Yamaha R1 ~ 1999 Kawasaki ZX6R J ~ 2004 Kawasaki ZX6R B1H 636 ~ 1998 Honda VTR1000F Firestorm ~ K1 GSXR 600 Track bike ~ K6 GSXR 1000 ~ 2006 Speed Triple 1050 || Current: 2005 R1 https://www.adrucore.co.uk

[Azoth]

The clever bits are in the extras that are charged to the insurance company and/or owner, i.e. storage fees, and in accountancy tricks.
But for me as Joe Bloggs buyer, I find these facts striking:

1) The company selling the bikes is the same one that applied/recommended the 'cat' to the insurer.
2) 99% of what they're selling as unroadworthy, i.e. scrap or 'salvage', basically has a scratch in the plastic if you look hard enough, or just a drooping indicator.
3) The same company is also insurance companies' 'recommended mechanic', i.e. if you crash your bike the insurer will 'recommend' you to take it to them.

So, just putting two and two together and coming up with nothing but four, it would be reasonable to suggest that the above facts mean one of two things:

1) The 'salvage' reseller can make more money from several directions (from insurance co., Ebay buyer, etc.) than if they didn't 'write off' a bike, even if the 'reasons' for writing it off are facetious.
2) This is just an ordinary trade seller of used bikes, sourced by all sorts of means, including driving a van around to Gumtree sellers around the country, who has found a way to get around legislation about roadworthiness of used bikes, and a way to get around any warranty, by having an engineer on board who is certified to 'write off' bikes they find, for no reason at all. In other words, a legal loophole, knowing that these bikes are going back on the road and are being bought by people who want to ride them.

Reason (2) actually makes sense, when you look at for how much these bikes eventually sell. What really doesn't make sense is that the only damage to any bike in any crash, ever, is a scratched fairing or broken indicator. Bikes aren't that strong. They get much more damage, often.
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Safety in numbers

[skatefreak]

It's starting to rite p*ss me off actually.
I'm wanting a newer track bike and am pretty handy with the spanners so figured get something already bent and work from there.

Then I saw the prices mentalists are willing to pay?
Literally, thousands for a 15 year old R6 with the whole front end bashed in? It's not far off getting a straight one?

I'm not sure what I'm missing but who in hell is buying all these wrecks for 70%-90% the going rate for straight ones?!

[Rogerborg]

On the other hand, when your insurer says "Oh, sorry, I know we were happy to let you pay for a policy against £5K value, but it turns out that your bike was written off (which we knew but you didn't) so it's only worth £3K tops", you can point at eBay and say "Jog on, monies."
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Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike

[Azoth]

[M.C]

[Azoth]

[M.C]

The bikes (obviously) worth a lot more in bits. They often break crashed bikes, you can tell by the damage, or missing parts or sometimes they're honest They don't seem to mind sitting on parts and are very stingy when you do make them an offer.

[Azoth]

Got another example. XV535 Virago 1996, 'cat C', goes for £1196. I had been to see that one as well, and I couldn't fault it at all except for a very slightly deformed handlebar. There was no reason for an insurance cat. It started on the button, and the engine was perfect. BUT no opportunity to ride it or to test the running. Not even a scratch. Dealership price on these (after haggling them down) is about £1200-£1300. I can't see how it would be worth more in bits. Work out what those engines are worth, how big the market is for those wheels, etc. and it still doesn't make sense.
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Safety in numbers

[M.C]

I ain't no expert but I've heard of people breaking perfectly fine bikes and making a profit. If you're getting it for <insert percentage> less you're making <insert percentage> more, minus the bits you can't use or get returned cos they're f**ked.