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Evil Hans |
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bigdom86 |
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
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Posted: 18:49 - 17 Mar 2017 Post subject: |
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125s need a lot of gear changing. If you're 19+ I'd urge you to get yourself an A2 or A (geared) licence.
If you're 17/18 and stuck on a 125, then fair enough, an auto will make good use of the available engine power. But it's scooter body or nothing (or get very lucky), I'm afraid. ____________________ Biking is 1/20th as dangerous as horse riding.
GONE: HN125-8, LF-250B, GPz 305, GPZ 500S, Burgman 400 // RIDING: F650GS (800 twin), Royal Enfield Bullet Electra 500 AVL, Ninja 250R because racebike |
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andyscooter |
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andyscooter World Chat Champion
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thx1138 |
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thx1138 World Chat Champion
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Posted: 20:35 - 17 Mar 2017 Post subject: |
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Rogerborg |
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Rogerborg nimbA
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Teflon-Mike |
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Teflon-Mike tl;dr
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Posted: 01:02 - 18 Mar 2017 Post subject: |
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Honda CB400A; Honda CB750 Hondamatic; Moto Guzzi Convert; Husquvana 430 Torque Converter.. There was also a Rokon 380, based on a Polars snow-moble, that was also sold as a Can-Am and possibly a bombardier in the US, which is probably the more genuine 'automatic motorcycle transmission'. But, OTMH that is pretty much IT for auto-'bikes' apart from the Gilera DNS which is a non-step-thru scooter, bit like the Lanbretta with a petrol tank between the seat and handle-bars.
Most listed are also quirks of the 70's, stimulated by the suggestion the US market wanted them, that never really took off, and demo'd the 'problems' with them, which is significantly that most aren't geuine automatics.
There are probably other bikes that might claim to be auto or semi auto, and some consensus or contention with DVLA as to whether they are or not, that could include the Duel Clutch 'switch change' gearboxes used o some more modern Honda's.
Baically, the early twist and go mopeds, didn't have an 'automatic transmission'. They ran a fixed reduction ratio between crank and driven wheel, and a 'centrifugal' (automatic) clutch, engaged when weights thrown out by centrifugal force of crank speed made shoes take up drive, or partial drive in slip.
The 'clutchless' semi-auto or crunch box Honda Cub step through, added a conventonal gearbox to this; so you could 'pre-select' a gear and ride it as a twist and go, or you 'might' roll off the throttle to disengage the cetrifugal clutch and 'crunch-change' gears on the move.
It has gears, they are user selectable, DVLA no longer accept these as an 'Auto'... whch also chalenges suggested status of most alleged auto's.
The Boss Hoss! (just remembered aother one!) Is a Cheverolet Car engine with a wheel bolted at ether end! Wth a hge, low revg oster torque America V8 engine, it does without a geared transmission, lke a moped, but uses a car type Torque converter, instead of a centrifugal clutch.
In the 'slip' rage between the fluid being churned by the engine, and locking out, giving direct drive between input paddle and drum, vanes inside the drum, direct fluid tipped off the paddle onto cups in the drum, to 'recoup' energy losses, and convert torque to power, providing a 'sort' of effective gear reduction in slip.
Boss Hoss uses this in conjuncton with a tall final drive to save having a gearbox; the Husky, the Convert, and the Hondamatics, still had a gearbox, and ISTR on all of them it was a spe h/lo range two speed that could be used like a cub-moped either as pre-select or a 'crash-box' on the move, and again, would probably make those arly 'automatics' manual bikes in the opinion of DVLA.
Leaves the Rokon/Polaris... which used a curouse type of rubber band transmission, that had been poneerd in the 1960's and '70's by a Dutch chap ad used on cars in the DAF variomatic car, i jont veture wth Polars in USA/Canada.
This is essentially the common 'variator' transmission used on larger scooters. It wasn' anything particularly new n the 1960's, and a filly echanical verion was offeed on the British Zenith coffee-grinder motorcycle in the 1920's when belt drive bikes were still more popular than than drive ones.
Basic priciple was that drive was transmitted between engine and wheel by a V-Belt, ad two pulleys. By splitting the pulleys and adjusting the width of the gap between the halves with a cam and spring, the V-Belt would rise or fall o a different effective diameter, and give a slightly different drive ratio.
It wasn't actually a novelty on the coffee grinder Zenith, but that had a cleaver mehanical mehansm to allow the pulleys to be adjusted on the move, and maintain belt tension.
This was the refinement of the variamatic, making that 'automatic', and varying the pulley ratio on the move, depending on engine load, and getting sufficient ratio alteration to be useful, whlst t did it, whch could take a umber of sets of pulleys.
The modern scooter 'varator' is essetially a simplification of that system, using 'cage' pulleys to take more efficient flat rather than v-belts, ad makes do with a reletively limited range of ratio varability, from a scooter's small wheels reducig the amount of reduction needed, whilst low power ad low speed helps make the system practical and effive, but is a evolutio of systems developed mainly for plant application and things like snow-mobles.
These do have a variable ratio transmssion, and rato is automatically adjusted, hence they are full autmatic tansmssons..... BUT.... they are prett much exclusive to scooters, where the small wheels and wheel bolted rigidly to transmission case/engine it, that is entirely 'unsprung' and moving with the wheel, makes t more practicable
The electronic Duel clutch electric change systems used on some more odern hondas have more conventional geaed transmissions, but gear selecton is effected electrically, hence the rider may change with a button rather than a lever, OR a control coputer can take over fro the button to effect some 'program' automatic shift control... AFAIK as they are still rider shiftable, ot fully electronically controlled, they are deemed 'semi-auto' like a cub moped for licencing purposes ad require a manual licence.
So the bottom line is, there are VERY VERY few genuinely fully auto transmission motocycles, of any displacement, and almost none, really over 125cc.
Most that can be ridden on an auto-only licence are mopeds and scooters, and eve there, a lot don't have real automatic variable ratio transmission, just automatic clutch ad direct drive; but the market and the mechanics are more conducive to them.
HOWEVER..... its no big deal. Learners are rather prone to over use the gears to start with. It something to do, ad it seems important... it isn't.
On the big bikes, can pretty much start in 2nd, ad I could leave the damn thing in 2nd all day long, unless I was heading out of town on a faster 50+ limit road.. and even then, on 60 & 60' I probably dont 'need' use anythig taller than 3rd... and with a bit of judiciouse clutch abuse could probably even start fro a stand still in 3rd, provided I wasn't on too steep a hill or too heavly loaded....
On the 125, I dont have as much power, or as much flexability i its delivery, I do need to use the gears.... I could probably start fro stadig 2nd wth a bit of clutch abuse if I wanted, but once movng, and 10mph I can snck 2nd, ad rond the houses up to 30mph, that is the ONLY gear I really need... yup, little motor, on my 4-stroke 125 revig to as much as 14ooo rpm does sound a little, err.. raucouse.. but t dont explode!
And it does give me best chance to get at ad use the limited power the 125 has a well as the flexibly to change speed, on the throttle, alone, rather than sturr cogs... which is another common newb error, making themselves work, shifting up possibly all the way to top before 30mph, because it sounds better, it feels better, there's some notion, possibly from car drivig lessons that taller gears are better for economy, and... its something to do... makes you feel 'in control'... then of course coming up to a junction, you have to slow from 30mph to walkg pace... and things get a bit tense, wth a lot of gear change to make down the box or ignore and 'coast' n the brakes, and ntangle at the end, IF yu have chance havg had to stop, f not, i a panic before you try pulling away fro the give way, at walking pace!!! Hard to make changes smooth, in a hurry, had to make them at all in a hurry, and every one is an extra oportty for effupp... dont make unnecessary up-changes you no need make unnecsary down changes, you CAN leave it in a lowr gear ad do t on the throttle 'like' an ato, and more should, to make things easy and get the 'control' that a gearbox offers.
Don't get me wrong I do like automatic gearboxes.... in a car! My first car lessons umpety decades ago were Canada whee Auto was the only real option in an american car (And was driving a Volkswagen with a gearbox outside lessons to make life 'hard') And I have been driving Auto cars almost solely here in the UK since the millennium, when I had an epiphany going to work one day, sat yet another traffic jam wrestling with a heavy hot-hatch clutch, and decided fukit! For the few chances for more spirited driving UK offers, it wasn't worth the hassle... and I capitulated to the lowest common denominator, bought a sofa with wheels, and a nice hi-fi and had an extra half hours kip on my way to work, like all the other idiots!
On a bike? There' a lot more opportunity for rider involvement; you can exploit the light weight and manouverability to take gaps and filter through jams, you can keep it rolling a lot more, and on an open road, with bends, 'enjoy' using the gearbox from time to time to 'drive' through bends....
Meanwhile, bike is a way to escape the sofa on wheels;and enjoy riding. Enthusiasm and interest in cars is limited and seriously damped by increase in traffic over the last 20 years, and fact most of it is utility transport going places I need to go rather than ones I want to go to, in a convoy of other frustrated motorists all fighting for their bit of road room; so non enthusast auto, makes sense, if t cant be fun, at least make it easy and comfy; THEN, when I WANT to have fun, and go some-where I want, THEN the bike makes sense, and so does a proper cog box.
I couldn't conceive owning an auto scooter... for daily grind commuting and 'chore' travel, its still out in the cold, wet and miserable, you still have to dodge twenty thousand half awake idiots dozing on their sofa, AND, its either fun nor comfy, and 'easement' of an proper automatic transmission isn't dong much if blugger all to make it any easier or comfier... while denying that 'freedom' the whole thing is supposed to be about to be 'liberatd' from achines telling us what we should do or trying to dowhat they thnk we should do for us, on the few oportunities for geuine lesure rides I'd get...... so a bit either one world nor t'other for me...
AND, usng a geabox properly, exploiting the cotrol a cog box offers properly, NOT short shifting, and over shifting, riding for response, using the revs not the gears, EVEN on a 125, I can still use the gearbox so seldom, an auto wouldn't be 'saving' much if any effort.
For you? Learn to use a cog box properly. Aim for smooth DONT over shift. Ride for response, take car driver notions of block shiftng you cant do on a bike, and hauling tall for ecconomy off the table, if you don't get enough economy fro a 125 catch the ruddy bus, or use a push bike! They are hardly gas guzzling monsters like my Auto Armchair! And as a learner, learn to ride, ad learn how LITTLE you really need change gear, and so how little an auto-trans really might do for you....
And when not a learner... THEN make up your own mind whether you would actually be getting anything from an automatic transmission on any two wheeler, in the use you would put it to.
Key here is the 'Learner' and CBT sn't a licence ts just the first lesson, a pretty comprehensive one perhaps, but still a long way off teaching you all you need to know to meet test standard... and THAT aught be the objective here.
And as a learner, dodgng learning to use a gearbox properly ad well, sn't learning; t's dodgng, an aproach to avoid learning, avoid gettng better, avoid taking tests, and litterally taking to the roads, on a vehicle that is potetially as fast as anythng else can legally go, and face all the hazards there ay-one else does, WITHOUT the skills to really cope or cotend with them... on a wing ad a prayer, hoping for the best, rather than putting in the effort to MAKE the best of thngs, and lookig at the machinary to do the jobs for you you dont want to.... its NOT really a partcularly good aproach to start a long, happy and cofortable rdng career, really... bte the bullet, do the learnng, get the ticket, and THEN if you think you will gain fro an auto, give it a go... but if you kow how to use a gearbox and use t properly, how much 'easier' it is likely to be for you is likely egligble....
WHICH is why there have bee SO few genuinely full automatic transmission motorcycles over the last fifty years, at best a small umber of semi-auto ones, and an awful lot of hugely compromised by design twist and go scooters and so many of them, ridden on L-Plates by know-o-better numpties who just dont care to learn to ride properly, to whom the lack of a gearshift is just one 'more' think not to care about!
If you aren't enthusiastic eough to want to learn to ride... buy a scooter; catch the bus, walk or get a car. If you have the enthusasm for a powerd two wheeler, the you will probably want a gear-box, you will need to know how t use it properly and explot it, and probably wont want a scooter or a car, but a proper geared motorcycle. And THAT is why so few fully auto motorcycles have ever been offered.
G use L-Plate for iteded, to LEARN.. not dodge learning, get a licence and discover for yourself, along the way, why there are so few auto's out there, over 125cc. ____________________ My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?' |
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Azoth |
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Azoth Brolly Dolly
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dydey90 World Chat Champion
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The Shaggy D.A. |
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The Shaggy D.A. Super Spammer
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WD Forte |
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WD Forte World Chat Champion
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Posted: 02:34 - 19 Mar 2017 Post subject: |
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Never in the field of bcf conflict
has so much been written by so few
and scrolled over by so many.............. ____________________ bikers smell of wee |
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Old Thread Alert!
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