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Seized/Stuck alternator cap

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Falco
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Joined: 27 Nov 2015
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PostPosted: 13:56 - 09 Apr 2017    Post subject: Seized/Stuck alternator cap Reply with quote
I am not sure exactly what it's called, but it is the screw cap that covers the alternator rotor, to allow the engine to be turned over for valve clearance checks.

I am not sure if it is seized or painted in (looks like there is a small amount of paint in the gap on one side) but it will not budge.

The head got minced when I tried to turn it. I've tried using punch pins to turn it, but it won't give and I don't want to crack the alternator case by going too hard on it.
How can I get the leverage to make it turn? Cut a slot in it? It's way to big to drill it out..I'm at a bit of a loss.
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stinkwheel
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PostPosted: 14:14 - 09 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
One option is to just leave it and remove the whole cover instead.

It'll be easier to remove with the cover off anyway.
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Suntan Sid
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PostPosted: 14:54 - 09 Apr 2017    Post subject: Re: Seized/Stuck alternator cap Reply with quote
Falco wrote:
I am not sure exactly what it's called, but it is the screw cap that covers the alternator rotor, to allow the engine to be turned over for valve clearance checks.

I am not sure if it is seized or painted in (looks like there is a small amount of paint in the gap on one side) but it will not budge.

The head got minced when I tried to turn it. I've tried using punch pins to turn it, but it won't give and I don't want to crack the alternator case by going too hard on it.
How can I get the leverage to make it turn? Cut a slot in it? It's way to big to drill it out..I'm at a bit of a loss.


First off, order a new on!
As Stinkwheel said it will be easier to remove with the casing on the bench. If it's the type with the hex hole for an Allen key you'll probably have to cut a slot in it, assuming the hex hole is chewed up, or you could try going up to the next size Allen key and jamming it in.
The last on I did came out with an impact driver, the type you hit with a hammer. If you use this method put a soft layer between the casing and the bench!
I got the one out of my DRZ, with the casing still on the bike, by drilling two small holes, putting in two self tappers, putting a bar between them and unscrewing it.
In the past I've also made up a large blade that I could fit into socket and unscrewed it with a socket wrench.
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Robby
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PostPosted: 18:09 - 09 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
When they get seized, they get really seized.

I had one with a long slot for a big screwdriver. Lacking a screwdriver that big, I used a 2p coin held in mole grips. The cover didn't budge, but the coin is very bent.

New engine covers are often cheaper than you think.
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Falco
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PostPosted: 00:11 - 10 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Cheers for the help guys.

stinkwheel wrote:
One option is to just leave it and remove the whole cover instead.

It'll be easier to remove with the cover off anyway.


That was a good shout stinkwheel. It at least let me check the the clearances until I can get the cap off, well it let me discover that my feeler gauge set doesn't have enough gradations to tell how out of spec they are, only that they are Brick Wall Will have to do it again next weekend with proper feelers.

Suntan Sid wrote:
First off, order a new on!
As Stinkwheel said it will be easier to remove with the casing on the bench. If it's the type with the hex hole for an Allen key you'll probably have to cut a slot in it, assuming the hex hole is chewed up, or you could try going up to the next size Allen key and jamming it in.
The last on I did came out with an impact driver, the type you hit with a hammer. If you use this method put a soft layer between the casing and the bench!
I got the one out of my DRZ, with the casing still on the bike, by drilling two small holes, putting in two self tappers, putting a bar between them and unscrewing it.
In the past I've also made up a large blade that I could fit into socket and unscrewed it with a socket wrench.


New one is in the post! (I've been down this road before). It is the hex hole type, it started as a 10mm, when that started to mangle I went and got a 12mm torx and banged it in, no luck. I've yet to have that method yield any results and today was no exception.
I think it will probably be slot, then drilling holes then impact driver (if for no other reason than I don't have anything big enough to grip the now reamed out hole).
Got a big old screwdriver/chisel from the car boot that could be re-purposed. Unfortunately the bike is in use everyday so the cover will be on and off while I mangle it.

Robby wrote:
When they get seized, they get really seized.

I had one with a long slot for a big screwdriver. Lacking a screwdriver that big, I used a 2p coin held in mole grips. The cover didn't budge, but the coin is very bent.

New engine covers are often cheaper than you think.


They really do. Happened twice on my CG125, first time was not my fault, 2nd time was entirely my fault and I ended up cracking the casing. No replacement covers available at any price (on ebay at least) Sad
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Falco
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PostPosted: 19:14 - 14 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
A couple of hours of fruitless attempts and I am no further forward.

I tried cutting a slot for the big screwdriver, but it's slightly too small so I used the flat end of the crowbar, can't seem to apply enough leverage to get it moving.

Drilled 2 holes and put 2 small screws in, they bent as I applied pressure, removed them, drilled 2 larger holes and put 2 larger screws in, they bent as well.

So my options at this point seem to be:
1) keep drilling larger holes and putting bigger screws in until the cap gives in
2) Drill a hole right in the centre and put a bolt extractor into it
3)Last resort - take the alternator off and start trying to drill/cut the cap out (I suspect this will damage the thread

Am I missing anything obvious? Of 1 and 2, which would be my best bet?
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Paulf
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PostPosted: 19:52 - 14 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Is it worth applying a little heat, not blasting with a oxy torch, with a hot air paint stripper thing...the super hot air dryer type. Any paint theadreadlock would come sticky might help...if ally don't use a flame type heat for anymore than a few seconds or you may have a pool of ally on the floor.
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mkjackary
Nitrous Nuisance



Joined: 15 Jul 2016
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PostPosted: 20:04 - 14 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Paulf wrote:
Is it worth applying a little heat, not blasting with a oxy torch, with a hot air paint stripper thing...the super hot air dryer type. Any paint theadreadlock would come sticky might help...if ally don't use a flame type heat for anymore than a few seconds or you may have a pool of ally on the floor.


A soldering iron works a treat usually.
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Baggyman
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Joined: 20 Feb 2017
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PostPosted: 20:14 - 14 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Robby wrote:
When they get seized, they get really seized.

I had one with a long slot for a big screwdriver. Lacking a screwdriver that big, I used a 2p coin held in mole grips. The cover didn't budge, but the coin is very bent.


the slot in those usually has a curved bottom. A C spanner (e.g. like those for shock absorber adjustment or push bike head races) often fits well
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Suntan Sid
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PostPosted: 22:56 - 14 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Falco wrote:
A couple of hours of fruitless attempts and I am no further forward.

I tried cutting a slot for the big screwdriver, but it's slightly too small so I used the flat end of the crowbar, can't seem to apply enough leverage to get it moving.

Drilled 2 holes and put 2 small screws in, they bent as I applied pressure, removed them, drilled 2 larger holes and put 2 larger screws in, they bent as well.

So my options at this point seem to be:
1) keep drilling larger holes and putting bigger screws in until the cap gives in
2) Drill a hole right in the centre and put a bolt extractor into it
3)Last resort - take the alternator off and start trying to drill/cut the cap out (I suspect this will damage the thread

Am I missing anything obvious? Of 1 and 2, which would be my best bet?


If it's that stuck you're going to have to go for option 3.
With the cover off you should be able to get plenty of penetrating oil into the threads from the back. Bare in mind it is a very fine thread on these covers.
Assuming the plug is now destroyed, I'd drill and tap a hole in it, the larger the better, screw in a bolt then use a socket to screw it out from the back, saves buying an extractor.
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Falco
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PostPosted: 01:47 - 15 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Suntan Sid wrote:
If it's that stuck you're going to have to go for option 3.
With the cover off you should be able to get plenty of penetrating oil into the threads from the back. Bare in mind it is a very fine thread on these covers.
Assuming the plug is now destroyed, I'd drill and tap a hole in it, the larger the better, screw in a bolt then use a socket to screw it out from the back, saves buying an extractor.


It's the thread that worries me on it (and my mullering of it). A new crankcase cover is just shy of £100. An expensive mistake to make Confused Plug has been drilled through, so I don't think there is much chance of putting it back on the bike as it is.

I actually already have a set of extractors, from back when I thought I might need it for a seized pad pin in a caliper. Is there any reason to use a bolt over an extractor or vice versa, if I already have both (the largest size I have in both is 10mm)?
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Baggyman
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PostPosted: 07:55 - 15 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Falco wrote:
Suntan Sid wrote:
If it's that stuck you're going to have to go for option 3.
With the cover off you should be able to get plenty of penetrating oil into the threads from the back. Bare in mind it is a very fine thread on these covers.
Assuming the plug is now destroyed, I'd drill and tap a hole in it, the larger the better, screw in a bolt then use a socket to screw it out from the back, saves buying an extractor.


It's the thread that worries me on it (and my mullering of it). A new crankcase cover is just shy of £100. An expensive mistake to make Confused Plug has been drilled through, so I don't think there is much chance of putting it back on the bike as it is.

I actually already have a set of extractors, from back when I thought I might need it for a seized pad pin in a caliper. Is there any reason to use a bolt over an extractor or vice versa, if I already have both (the largest size I have in both is 10mm)?


If the cap is already knackered, drill a second hole and put a nut and bolt (with washers) through each. You can then stick something like a long screwdriver between the bolts and get much more leverage than using an extractor - give the screwdriver shaft a tap with a hammer to get it moving.

Hope the plug got drilled with the casing off the bike

Suggest you also check whether the cap should have an o-ring. Adding one will help in the future.
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Suntan Sid
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PostPosted: 08:30 - 15 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Falco wrote:
Is there any reason to use a bolt over an extractor or vice versa, if I already have both (the largest size I have in both is 10mm)?


If you can drill and tap a hole, the bolt will screw right down until the head of the bolt is in contact with the plug and you can use a good socket to grip it.
IME an extractor screws in until it bites, which usually means there's a lot of it still sticking out, giving whatever wrench you're using the chance to wobble around. Most extractors I've seen use something akin to a tap wrench, which isn't as good as a socket wrench.
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Falco
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PostPosted: 13:43 - 15 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
This cap will not give in! tried putting a couple of M6 bolts into the holes, they just bent as well. Drilled and tapped a 10mm hole in the centre and put a bolt down it. Stripped the thread cut into the plug. Put a nut on the other end, but it the socket keeps slipping.

Other options at this point? I really don't want to start cutting and risk the thread

EDIT: just had to cut the nut to get the bolt out. Nut and bolt were both stripped
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Baggyman
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PostPosted: 15:26 - 15 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Are you sure it is a real cap and not just some moulding in the cover?

Can you post some photos? Inside and outside
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Falco
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PostPosted: 16:07 - 15 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Baggyman wrote:
Are you sure it is a real cap and not just some moulding in the cover?

Can you post some photos? Inside and outside


I am not 100% sure, but it shouldn't be. Every parts diagram shows it as a cap with an O-ring, the casing also has an timing inspection hole above the cap, why would that be there if you had to take the whole cover off?

In any case here are some pictures, I've been going at it for a while so its a bit of a mess. To me it looks like a standard cap, but its well and truly not for moving.

https://i63.tinypic.com/2yvrn6r.jpg

https://i66.tinypic.com/2vubtkj.jpg

https://i66.tinypic.com/33yq9ev.jpg
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Falco
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PostPosted: 16:28 - 15 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Got it! Dance!

MVP goes to 12" adjustable spanner and chisel with handle cut off to reveal the tang to allow use of the spanner:

https://i68.tinypic.com/25fswhs.jpg

Thank you for the help.

PS - yes it is supposed to have an-O-ring Baggyman, I ordered one with the replacement cap, so hopefully no repeats!
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Baggyman
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PostPosted: 17:16 - 15 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well done Thumbs Up Looks like it was a right b'stard
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Paulf
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PostPosted: 17:48 - 15 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well done I was beginning to think it was not an inspection cover.
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Suntan Sid
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PostPosted: 18:17 - 15 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Well done for not giving up and getting it out! Thumbs Up

Don't over tighten the new one!
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Falco
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PostPosted: 22:49 - 15 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
Stuck bolts always feel like such an epic saga. Good to triumph though.

While cleaning the cover (getting the prodigious amount of swarf out of it) I found the most likely cause.

The cap did have an O-ring and the threads were not rusted at all, there was however a decent amount of paint in the gap between the cap and the cover as well as underneath the lip of the cap. No idea how that happened (painted with the cap off? surely no one would do that).

No fear of over tightening the new one! Been down that route on my 125, giant faff to get the stuck one off, finally did it (with cracked case) and then promptly over tightened new one Doh! 9Nm and not an a 1/4 turn more.
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Suntan Sid
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PostPosted: 23:11 - 15 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote
When I was rebuilding my XL125, I had 3 sets of crankcases, the timing plug covers were stuck in all three, got 'em all out eventually!
I've made two complete engines, one in the bike and the big bore engine waiting to go in. I never tighten that inspection cover much more than finger tight and it ain't fallen out yet!
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Old Thread Alert!

The last post was made 7 years, 12 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful?
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