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High MPG bikes which are fun?

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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 19:08 - 16 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

1, I'm sure Bubbs has a full bike licence.

2, What's been repeatedly said about start up costs for two wheels works just as well for 4wheels too. So therefore in some cases cheap transport by means of a bike could work out long term cheaper than by car. It really does depend on the situation of the individual.

Otherwise avoiding using something does indeed save money, but what was failed to be mentioned is that sometimes not using a bike or car for a long period of time to save money, can result in wallet pain when you go to use it again, especially if the vehicle was parked on a whim for months and not prepared for storage etc.
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secretagentmo...
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PostPosted: 19:25 - 16 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

125s can be fun if you ride them like 125s, not like 600s! Just remember the bike is smaller, take your time and find some slow roads to enjoy on it!
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AdamEf
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PostPosted: 22:42 - 16 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm regularly getting 65 to 70 mpg out of my SV650 without even trying to ride economcially.
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Bozzy
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PostPosted: 22:53 - 16 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

AdamEf wrote:
I'm regularly getting 65 to 70 mpg out of my SV650 without even trying to ride economcially.


Jesus, do you push it everywhere? I couldn't get anywhere near that!

Ste wrote:
An hour if he types at about an average speed.

Half an hour if he's pretty damn fast.


Not too bad, although it'd definitely be 3 hours if I wrote it.
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Bubbs
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PostPosted: 07:37 - 17 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I have full bike licence including all kit and security. I also have a work van for rainy days so won't have to rely totally on bike. Wife also has a car I can use. Just want to sell my car and cut down on costs, but I don't have a bike and desperately miss it.

Thanks for your response tef, read it all. Wouldn't have been asking for suggestions over 125cc if I didn't have a licence. Man you can really go off on one but some relevant info there to my situation.
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andyscooter
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PostPosted: 10:10 - 17 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bozzy wrote:
Ste wrote:
Words 2,281
Characters 12,113
Sentences 34
Paragraphs 26

Reading Time 8 mins 17 seconds
Speaking Time 12 mins 40 seconds


What was the writing time though? It must have taken him at least 3 hours.


about five seconds copy and pasting from his archives

sure that's the sperg he uses for new bikers as well
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stevo as b4
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PostPosted: 11:11 - 17 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

What should have been mentioned I suppose is running costs other than fuel, and also exactly what Bubbs commute consists of and any other essential car replacing use?

Saying that if you have a van, you could use a less practical bike and if it gets annoying or boring or too unsuitable, just Park it up and use the van.

I think there's alot to be said on a fun/cheap/simple bike for one spark plug to change, one carb to tune, and something that won't munch on tyres and chain&sprockets too hard etc.

But risk of theft kind of sours alot of the fun bike options too. I'd much rather ride 10miles to work on a WR450F motard, than I would on a Frazer 600 etc. And if you only get say an hour or so of spare time a week to go hooning, a blast down the back lanes on the 450 sounds much more my idea of fun, than a 50mile ride to a typical biker cafe etc.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 11:36 - 17 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

andyscooter wrote:
Bozzy wrote:
What was the writing time though? It must have taken [Tef] at least 3 hours.


about five seconds copy and pasting from his archives

The scary part is that he types it fresh every time.
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Evil Hans
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PostPosted: 11:51 - 17 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's amazing what a difference driving style can make.

My Bandit averages low 50's mpg.

I once spent a long weekend tootling around doing a bit of local touring with my smallest daughter on the back, but following Mrs Hans on her 125.

On one fill-up I managed over 70mpg. I averaged mid 60 for the whole weekend. But it sure felt like a long long weekend Very Happy
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 11:54 - 17 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bubbs wrote:
Thanks for your response tef, read it all. Wouldn't have been asking for suggestions over 125cc if I didn't have a licence. Man you can really go off on one but some relevant info there to my situation.

Many even pre-L-Plater's fantasize about big bike choices so was reasonable to ask, but does beg query why you didn't / don't consider tiddlers (other than the funky-monkey)?

Going off on anuvaone, the one-size-fits-all prescription that leapt instantly to mind was a DT125 or similar... with or without a full licence, they offer a heck of a lot of grins for your dosh, if exploited to extract it....

125's best quality is the potential for 'cheaps'. As said, you still have to work for it, and the £17 a year tax only goes a short way in the cause. High mpg is elusive, but they can do well enough, and lacking big power do limit greater excess.. as muttered, ragging the crap out of the 125 Super-Dream, only time I get worse than the 'best' I get from the 750 is if the float needles jam and it pisses petrol out the overflow all night! While regular running costs are delightfully minimal, and doesn't beg the tyres chains, sprockets of brake pads the big bikes do, anywhere near as often and they are a heck of a lot cheaper if it ever does!

They were another going off on one tangent prompted by O/H's inspiration to build a bike to 'learn mechanics and get a licence on it' idea, before she got a licence, and discovered 'big-bikes'.... err.. yeah.... take note.. remember that entropy/spouces/murphey finds ways to wast your money, warning!!!!!

I had actually bought an old air-cooled 12/75 'enduro' for my own mid-life teen-dream wibble. Bike of 'my' era, and closely related to the TY compers I cut my teeth on in school-boy trials umpety decades ago.... which got nicked the week I completed the resto Evil or Very Mad But, rational behind that one might offer inspiration and reconsideration of the tiddlers, and possibly older ones....

First up, cheap and fun.... premium on 125 insurance can damp savings some-what, and more if you add the +commuting to the quote, and ramp the annual miles for all-round use; but, can still be relatively reasonable. Contemporary road tests that suggested that 70mpg was the 'best' I might hope for, and that off-road fun could get it down in the low 30's was a little scary... but err.. yeah.. still no worse than the 750 in all-round use.

Tyres... at this juncture, I have to say that superetards are a bit of an anathma to me; notion of spoiling a perfectly good dirt bikes mud-plugging capability by slapping sports bike wheels and tyres on it, to not have a sports bike's sporty capability either, is just perverse to my engineering aesthetics.. can see some of the appeal, just seems a bit neither nor, and all the compromises of both for few of the benefits of either.. horses for courses; dirt bikes for dirt, track bikes for track; street bikes for the road, and the evil notion of slapping on trials slicks, that I know will let me deck pegs on tar, if I don't mind buying new ones at regular intervals, leaps to mind..... at least they are reasonably 'cheap'.. and offer that off-road 'fun' for it.

National-speed-Limit roads.... err... yeah..... well, the little Super-Dream is a genuine 70mph motorcycle... just.... the enduro? well, contemporary tests suggested it had the capability... modern DT's I believe actually have a 65mph speed governor.... but a little academic... Back to those formative years of my youth, when I actually learned gears on a Suzuki SP370, and progressed quickly to the 'brute' of the era XT500 unicycle... I have to say that they did an awful lot to convince me of the horses for courses philosophy!!!

The human parachute riding position, if nothing else, sort of deters even attempting to break the NSL very often.. Which, begged suggestion that for that kind of bike, small displacement isn't really all that much of an impediment on the road, whilst the tendency the XT had for making full scale reconstructions of the Somme with its back tyre and disappearing into the trench up to its grips, and the ensuant sweating to drag the bludy thing back out, beg the notion lack of cc's is positive advantage off-road! And thank's to the NERF act, the NSL no longer applies to green-lanes, even if you were daft enough to try, or they had graded it well enough to encourage you!

So, the performance limitations of a tiddler, are considerably diminished , and their advantages enhanced, and the only real gripe is long-haul comfort.....

Modern vogue for carting compers to the Nat-Parks in vans, is another anathema to me..... I have a Range-Rover... err... yeah.. why slap bike on the rack or trailer to drive 80 miles up the A5 to Corwen, to park it up and take the bike through the car-wash? Leave the bike at home, stick the ruddy tractor down the tracks!!!! If I am going to the faff of strapping bike down, might as well take it somewhere a little more interesting and challenging, like a quarry in Derbyshire, where points mean prizes not fines..... which raises that dilemma again of trying to piggy-back ambitions, and the camel of compromises that brings, trying to do it all with one bike that you have to pay road tax and insurance for...... But, IF the trails are, relatively speaking, on your door-step? And you can avoid that long haul treck on the tiddler or on a trailer to get to'em, why not?

I live in Warwickshire who disclaim loudly that they only have two un surfaced public roads in the county, neither more than a mile long! Conveniently, though I live on the corner of Leistershire & Staffordshire, and tip of Notts and Derbyshire aren't too far out of tiddler range, so there are a fair few 'lanes I can go try tackle if I put in the leg work to find them on the OS Map... Which made the A/C Enduro a bit more do-able, and more than a pop to the shops machine.

But that was the idea behind it; a bit of relatively pocket money 'fun' with a fair chunk of capability to earn its keep as pop to the shops round town transport.

Always a compromise; and one of many in the mix... BUT point is that tiddlers can be made to work, and potentially work well in one.

Yeah... mice and men... loss of the enduro meant the plan never got properly tested, and the 125 Super-Dream is a spin-off of her build a bike to learn to ride 'plan' and extract some of the bludy build cost from the damn thing in 'use'!!!! Remember Murphey! Entropy and Spouces!!!!

But, the old Cota is again in the frame, and sat wondering weather to scrub it up for classic comp again, or do a more diligent brochure resto, or evil ideas of fitting a 350 barrel to it, sourcing an original un-cut down seat, and getting a day-light MOT on the thing to go terrify the local dairy herds!

Favorite though, now I am eligible for the old duffer's class, is to make life easy on myself and just buy a Gas-Gas or Serco, and go do over 40's at local club, who conveniently have their own riding venue, I can use between events whenever, and in events for a fiver a time, for the sake of £30's worth of 'dues' and £20's worth of ACU trials licence..... It's rather a lot cheaper than trying to source obscure old Spanish 'bits' to renovate the old cota, or pay for tax, insurance and MOT.... AND have some-one on hand to laugh and help pick me up when I fall off!!! I just cant quite get past the natural perversion against making it 'easy' for myself... yet!

But, in that opening, first I wouldn't dismiss the tiddlers. If you have to make compromises, the ones they beg can, be negligible and/or useful ones, and they do have the capability, obeying Entropy/Murphey to work for it, to offer 'cheaps' and deliver an awful lot of grins disproportionately to their displacement or costs.

Second; dirt bikes natural habitat is dirt, not tar; and for the fun, that does open up a whole arena of potential, where fun can be found on a shoe-string, and unless you are chasing championship placings in regular competition, you REALLY don't need the latest must have future is orange Austrian hoover with pogo-suspension and questionable reliability to ride a typical green-lane!

Given trend for road-stoning the damn things since NERF, you probably don't even need knoblies and a show-room stock YBR125 would probably not struggle along many of them! An old MZ250, is a very competant trail tool, even on OE pattern small-block 'road' tyres, better still on trials tyres. And screaming at me from the back of my mind, is the old Dn, Dj, Dy-fukit.. Russian Ural goolak heap of junk, 1930's BMW clone!

Unc bought one of these 20 years ago, with a side-car... I still have flash-backs to the trauma that bike caused taking him to collect the damn thing, BUT, it did try and redeem itself, one day when he was overhauling the side-car hubs and had taken off the chair, and he encouraged me to try it 'solo'... on squared off side-car rubber! and I have to admit, that it didn't seem to really 'upset' the solo 'handling' the thing lacked on tar very much... and was still a damn site more 'stable'... which is all very relative... than it was with the chair attatched!!!! BUT, finding myself at the entry to one of Warks two unsurfaced tracks, and soon up to my knees in gloop... yeah... I can see how the German Storm Troopers made it from Berlin to Warsaw on the things! It 'almost' redeemed itself in my opinions of it... not quite, but almost!

Begs suggestion, that you can probably have quite a lot of fun on the trails with surprisingly 'little' presumed off road capability.... stuff that, I have been riding a 1981 rock-hoppa T-shock in trials comp since its first MOT expired!!! You DON'T need a heck of a lot of presumed 'off-road' capability, to have fun off-road! And I have to say that a lot of the technical marvel of modern off-roader's is in the landing module suspension developed to suit the areal acrobatics of US inspired Arena-Cross, and ISN'T all that much of an advantage outside that specialisation, and virtually zero advantage on a muddy farm track.. even in comp trials, and all the technical advancement of the modern mono's compared to my old T-shock, or even that over old four-bangers or 'rigids' from the veteran classes.... I have ridden a Gas-Gas on modern sections, and it does make a lot an awful lot easier (remember remark about natural aversion to that perversion, though!), but in the heat of comp, makes little odds, I have regularly beaten blokes on modern mono's on my old dinosaur and in turn been shamed by and old boy on a Panther rigid FFS! And that is where such advantages count.. if you are serious about the score sheet... but even there.. falling off and digging the mud out your mouth is half the fun... like Rugger, like that, isn't it? Wink On the trails? Who cares; if it was easy wouldn't be such 'fun'!

But suggestion begs query at older iron, and non dedicated tackle; either off road or on; and the cheap thrills that can be found in that arena...

A-N-D ultimately the fun can be found in almost ANY bike... even a gulag heap of Russian junk, or a melody moped, if, like finding and making economies, you put in the effort to find it..... which takes us back to the start, and chucks the question back at you... ANY bike, can be fun, if you have the right mind set and work to find it.... it doesn't matter what it is.... but, you have to find that mind set, you have to be prepared to work for the fun or the savings, bike wont do much to help, and at best, just a lot to hinder.

Remember Murphey, entropy, spoucal counter-compensation! every action has an equal and opposite re-action and usually perverse to the one you'd like! accept it, don't fight it, make it work for you rather than against.

And open your horizons, and question presumptions and predjudices; pretty much anything and everything you might want and an awful lot you probably dont even know you could want, in biking, is there for the taking, IF you look beyond the bike, and the cheque-book to buy it, and put in just a little thought and effort to get what you really want out of it.

And don't dismiss the tiddlers, 'just' because they are usually ridden by learners and are easily derided as 'toy' bikes... remember there are more Learner-Legals on the road than big-bikes, and between them, more clock more miles each year, earning their living as every day transport, where more 'big-bikes' really ARE 'toys' living for months of the year in the garage, only to be pulled out on Sunny week-ends... just 'for fun'.... (Mia culpa: except the 750 don't live in a garage, and isn't saved for sunny days only.. but it IS 'just for fun')
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Last edited by Teflon-Mike on 12:06 - 17 Apr 2017; edited 1 time in total
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 12:03 - 17 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

He types it fresh every time.

https://i.imgur.com/2RIZCLn.gif
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GTR1400
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PostPosted: 12:15 - 17 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ste wrote:
Words 2,281
Characters 12,113
Sentences 34
Paragraphs 26


Reading Time 8 mins 17 seconds
Speaking Time 12 mins 40 seconds


That sentence:paragraph ratio needs some work, Tef.
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Ste
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PostPosted: 12:22 - 17 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
more stuff

Words 2,229
Characters 12,423
Sentences 40
Paragraphs 27
Reading time 8 mins 7 seconds
Speaking time 12 mins 23 seconds
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NutsyUk
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PostPosted: 12:28 - 17 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rogerborg wrote:
He types it fresh every time.

https://i.imgur.com/2RIZCLn.gif



I saw his post I couldnt read through it all and I was thinking exactly what you posted before.... Then i saw this post Very Happy really made me lol in the cafe im in...
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NJD
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PostPosted: 12:48 - 17 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

He's used up so much server space it won't let me see his recent posts via his profile blocking out even page 2 reporting nothing was found.

I only wanted to see if there was a time he posted less than a life story. Crying or Very sad
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Hahadumball
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PostPosted: 19:03 - 17 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

thx1138 wrote:
CrippleTron wrote:
my bros 400 was fairly good fun and decent on fuel



yeah Bros 400 is "better than the sum of its parts" really liked them, but seemed a touch to exotic to mention, grey import etc


thats true, mine was a trooper although only 2 for sale right now on gumtree

none the less, they go on forever!
mine only suffered with a torn diaphragm which i fixed with a condom
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DJP
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PostPosted: 20:11 - 17 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The answer is Yamaha MT07.

I averaged near 60mpg on mine over 13,000 miles.

And I spanked it like a sumbitch... Mr. Green
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Waaarrrggghhh
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PostPosted: 23:32 - 17 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

BMW's F650CS has high mpg, a belt drive, low seat and a short wheel base (the very definition of approachable and easy to ride fun). The 650 engine means it can handle highway speeds all day no problem.
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Rogerborg
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PostPosted: 23:54 - 17 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Waaarrrggghhh wrote:
BMW's F650CS

Currently 3 of them on eBay, one already sold, one out of Bubb's price range, and the other one headed that way and not local to him.

See stevo's point about recommending bikes that can't actually be had for the money available.
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Bubbs
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PostPosted: 16:07 - 18 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teflon-Mike wrote:
Bubbs wrote:
Thanks for your response tef, read it all. Wouldn't have been asking for suggestions over 125cc if I didn't have a licence. Man you can really go off on one but some relevant info there to my situation.


Muchos wordage


I'll take a look at tidlers too. Avoided due to poor top end... although I'm happy with 60-65 mph, don't need more than that, just don't want the same experience as the YBR I used to own, boring as shit and didn't trust it to not low side with it's skinny wheels.
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Bubbs
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PostPosted: 16:08 - 18 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Eye was drawn to Z1000 at £10k 0% finance..... can I justify it to the wife..... Wink
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wots
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PostPosted: 16:10 - 18 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bubbs wrote:
I'll take a look at tidlers too. Avoided due to poor top end... although I'm happy with 60-65 mph, don't need more than that, just don't want the same experience as the YBR I used to own, boring as shit and didn't trust it to not low side with it's skinny wheels.
Biggest issue I had with my very first bike CBF125, with factory tyres. Both were lethal, until I got my first big bike (an ER6) and suddenly realised the skinny tyres really do make life hard.

As above, the Grom doesn't have that issue.
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Northern Monkey
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PostPosted: 18:15 - 18 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

The grom comes from the factory with really dreadful VeeRubber tyres.

It uses 12 inch scooter tyres, which are available in some excellent rubber from Michelin (city grip or pure power), Conti and Pirelli all for less than £40 each.

If you're getting a second hand one, someone had probably already done this, and then you just need to budget a few quid to keep replacing the nuts on the bottom of the footpegs, which you'll keep grinding off by taking roundabouts too fast.
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andyscooter
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PostPosted: 18:27 - 18 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bubbs wrote:
Eye was drawn to Z1000 at £10k 0% finance..... can I justify the wife..... Wink



ftfy Laughing
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Teflon-Mike
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PostPosted: 20:40 - 18 Apr 2017    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bubbs wrote:
I'll take a look at tidlers too. Avoided due to poor top end... although I'm happy with 60-65 mph, don't need more than that, just don't want the same experience as the YBR I used to own, boring as shit and didn't trust it to not low side with it's skinny wheels.

YBR's tyres are notorious.. it's not the width, its the rock-hard, never wear out budget economy compound of the OE fit originals!!

Narrow rubber, is actually a positive advantage, technically speaking.

The area of rubber in contact with the floor is irrelevent to the 'grip', which is pretty much dependent only on the force pushing the tyre against the tar... that force is mostly the weight of the bike, so heavier the bike the more clamping force you tend to get... but tyres are full of air; if you have 30psi in the tyre, it will just squash more, the more weight you put on it, until the weight is reacted by the pressure... so a heavier bike will squash more rubber into contact with the floor and spread the weight over a bigger area of rubber... conversely, a lighter bike wont, so doesn't really matter how wide the tyre you have, if you and the bike only weigh 300Lb, and the tyres have 30lb/sq-in in them, you will get 10Sq-in of contact between both tyres... no matter how wide the tyre carcass is.

Meanwhile, the narrower section tyre means that the center of the contact patch cant move very far when you lean or steer; if you have a wider tyre, tilting and turning will beg that the tyre roll further accross the profile when you alter attitude, so the narrower tyre will tend to give more neutral and natural and predictable geometry control and hence handling.

With the same size contact patch, water displacement on a wet road shouldn't be much different, water only has to be shoved the same distance, but the wider shorter shape of contact patch on a wider tyre, tends to be less helpful. with a narrower tyre the contact patch will tend to be more oblong in the axis of travel, so water displaced side-ways hasn't so far to be pushed, whilst in the axis of travel, the tyre's rotation and the steeper angle of departure where the contact patch ends, gives greater clerance to aid displacement. So they tend to offer much more 'effective' grip in the wet.

And in similar way, and for similar reasons, narrower tyres tend to offer less rolling resistance. so you can eek a few extra MPG or MPH out of them, or better put, wider rubber will likely rob mpg and mph for the notional added grip you don't actually get from them.

On the 125 Super-Dreams, we actually run slightly under size tyres; OTM head 2.75 front instead of 3.00 and 3.00 rear instead of 3.25; the smaller sizes are the same as the earlier T-shock CB125Twin and the CG125 (hence more common/available), and still acceptably wide enough to support the negligible weight; Honda specced bigger rubber on the later, more upmarket model, basically to pander to aestheatics and the idea that bigger tyres must be better..... Running pretty sticky Mitchelin M45's, which are the same compound as the more modern 'sporty', but with more wet-weather freindly block-tread pattern, I can deck the pegs on the darn thing with abandon! I can honestly say I have had more 'moments' and more slides on the 750, with twice the weight, and twice the rubber....

It really is the tyre compound that give, or rob, corner 'confidence', not the width.

As to the YBR? I have to say that for all I vaunt its virtues... it really does only have ONE of them.. overall cost effectiveness..... Its the bean counter's bench-mark choice, and beyond that, I would really really REALLY struggle to be inspired by the bludy things in any way shape or form!

BUT... if you want cheap wheels!?!? Those bean counter's sums are pretty darn hard to argue with!

Comparison to DT125 is probably quite interesting. The YBR tops out at about 65, eventually, by virtue of only having 10ish bhp, and milking every single one to get there. The DT, in 'restricted' form, has about 13bhp, and could go a bit quicker at a push, were it not for the speed governor retarding the sparks if you try, but is held back by that and by the rolling resistance of over wide knobly tyres, and human parachute riding position. Gets there pretty smartly though, thanks to low off-road gears and an extra one in the box, b-u-t, has to be said, the two-stroke power delivery exaggerates the effect, with a power curve that provides more stark contrast, coming 'on the pipe' making it feel like its doing more than it actually is.... Same engine in the RD's/TZR's, had the same nature, and even with narrower road rubber, and better aero-dynamics, cant do an awful lot more, and 70 ish, is about all they can manage from the same power.

So you have to look again at the YBR, and ask what is actually making it that bland... and the answer is that it's not merely it's lack of oomph.. it's as or almost as fast top end, it just doesn't get there with the same drama, and to all extents and purposes it's nie on as quick point to point and shouldn't be any slower on streets with speed signs! And with decent rubber, it's handling isn't any more significantly impaired either, despite rather under damped, under sophisticated twin-shocks, where on tar, it's probably more neutral and predictable and stable than a DT on stadium MX inspired landing gear!!

Why does a DT or TZR or anything of its ilk, then 'inspire' so much more, where a YBR doesn't? And the answer I believe is purely in that false 'drama' and 'sensation' they provide, seasoned with the styling that sets the mood before you begin...

Which is to try and dispell the myth that bigger tyres must be better, and say dont dismiss the YBR125 quite so fast.... them bean-counter's arguments are STILL hard to argue with, and if you are after saving pennies, and getting as much fun for your money, a YBR still has virtue.....

May be a pretty large compromise to sacrifice so much presumed (and it IS presumed!) 'fun' on the way to work for savings you might use for fun on something else after.... but that bean-counter argument IS there.

When I laid up the VF-Though a decade and a half ago; I had a 25mile commute to work each day, about half of it on NSL country roads..... wrestling the thou' down them lanes certainly got the blood pumping in the morning!!! Succession of traffic light GP's for the last 8-miles accross town, started to get a little less 'fun' and killed rear tyres, chains, sprockets and wheel bearings rather rapidly.......

Practically, hustling that behemoth down the lanes and through city traffic, what did I achieve? Well, the 30mpg the book suggested was rarely realized for starters... tyres as mentioned were rather short lived, and at £140 a hoop, and around 1500 miles, 250 miles a week saw me need a new one every few frigging WEEKS! As well as the wheel bearings, chains & sprockets, brake pads, oil and all that fuel the damn thing drank! WAS rather expensive, using bike like that, as daily 250mile a week 'commuter'.

And really, how much 'fun' did I get for my money? NOT A LOT, is the honest answer! and perversely, faster I went looking for fun, less fun-time I got!

25 mile trip, pushing the envelope, and couple of points on that run, yup, I had oportunity to open the thing up and achieve seriousely licence loosing velocities; BUT, for the most part, all that excess allowed me to do was make many many more 'marginal' over-take calls... A-N-D ultimately, average not much over 50mph for the entire journey....

I could have done the same run on a CG125 and the difference in the time between putting down my breakfast coffee cup and strapping my hat on at home, to taking hat off at work and sticking the kettle on whilst the computer warmed up, was practically the time it took a kettle to boil... crickey... even taking the car, and sitting it out in the traffic, difference was barely the time to boil the kettle and make the coffee!

Heck of a lot of money spent for remarkably little actual real world 'time saving'... and the 'fun'.... well there it gets subjective......

Twenty years older, if little wiser; and coming down, from litre, to 750, to 125, back up to 750... Yup... I would far rather be on the bike than in a box.... even back then, I rode all year, and the ex was hiding the ruddy bike keys on icy mornings, because even that didn't detur me, even though I had and could as easily taken the box, and stayed warm and upright! and that hasn't changed much, and I will still, spend more time 'togging up' to ride the bike to pop to town, than it would take to take the car..... it is very very hard to put a price on 'fun' when its so hard to define what IS fun.....

But, laying up that VF; looking at it a bit rationally; I sacrificed that 'fun'; what, 25-30 minutes a trip, less than five hours a week of riding thrills, mostly derived from taking big risks to get them, to go trialzin again. 20 times a year, riding with two clubs; four five hours an event; That's around 100 hours of unadulterated riding 'fun' a year..

My daily commute, a long-ish one, an hour a day, five days a week, fifty weeks of the year, totaled barely 250 hours ride time.. of which, I MIGHT have got five minutes of real actual 'fun' each trip....

Stick the 'fun' on the scales, and trying to find it on the daily commute did not provide very much at all, and certainly extolled a high price for what it did offer...

When I laid up the VF, I had a couple of work-mates offering their tuppence worth; one rode a BMW R80 and suggested that I tackle the excessive running costs of my though with such a device. Another rode a CX500 maggot, which he offered as similar candidate to cut costs. Another actually offered me a GSX400 he'd run as a long term commuter for a decade, before retiring it for a winter resto, that took three years, and been superceded, by I think it was a VFR750...

Favorite though was a neighbor's Kawasaki KH125, which I was rather fond of. He'd bought it as get-to-work wheels to get his test on, and he'd done that, and paid off the HP and been given a promotion at work, and reproved for turning up each morning with helmet hair and been given a company car.. still like the little air cooled 2T singles.... [bisto sigh]... but I actually bought a rot-box 1.6 Montego estate!

To all extents and purposes that little KH125 would have been great; I'd have still got to work, and a darn site more cheaply than on the VF, and withing the same time as it takes a kettle to boil, and realistically, still got a bit of added 'fun' from it.....

BUT... still needed family & DIY freindly wheels; and for the fun? Well Cost me just £30 to join local trials club and get my ACU licence; those 20 events cost me £100 to enter, and about as much again for the fuel to ride'em. I got ALL that fun for less than the 'just' the cost of insuring a 125.

BUT, if you can make the numbers work for you? There is still opportunity, A-N-D, that boring as heck YBR, can still deliver an awful lot of fun for the pennies it costs you.....

Bubbs wrote:
Eye was drawn to Z1000 at £10k 0% finance..... can I justify it to the wife..... Wink


No.

She can probably justify 199% a new kitchen, a holiday in spain, a new pair of designer shoes she'll only ever wear once and complain pinch her toes; a new patio set, redecorating the living room, and WHY frilly cusion covers are ABSOLUTELY essential to the plan and why you cant live without them...... (sorry if divorse has made me synical on the subject!!!!) BUT... A motorbike? What on EARTH do you NEED one of them for? Face it, you are on a looser before you start Wink

How you get around that, is your call, problem defeated me for a decade and ultimately cost me a house to 'fix'.... but it was worth it! Divorce... I CAN thoroughly recommend it! Wink

Zero % finance, have to say, yells "RUN AWAY" at me... you dont get owt for nowt, and if they aren't making the money on the credit they have to be making it somewhere else!!!

They will usually want around 1/4 - 1/3 more back, than they lend you, so, if they aren't charging you that openly, my assumption is that they have already put that on the sticker price!!!!

Either which way, you are paying a heck of a lot of money, just to have it sit and depreciate in the garage... and that 'attractive' finance plan will show in the second hand prices, where the initial depreciation in the finance period will be accelerated, as folk opt for the attractive finance, rather than find cash; which is where the inflation of sticker price starts to show the real world cash value of the bike.

Almost garanteed, if that's the bike you want, buying one at 3 years old with a fresh MOT, the finance package and early life depreciation paid by first owner, you will save money, and lots of, EVEN if you take out independent positive price interest to do so.......

Oh-Kay... lets look at that YBR125 again.... NO seriousely LOOK at one.

They have just gone up in the brochure, from £2400 to about £2700 I think to meet the latest euro-bolox... if you hunt you might find one at the old price... and they have had some pretty atractive finance deals on them over the years...... For get to work wheels.. would it do the job? OK factor in a pair of sticky-perelli tyres before you try!!! Accept the 'boring'. Work isn't supposed to be fun, or they would charge you for turning up like an amusement park rather than pay you! So why should getting there be any? What do the numbers look like?

You mentioned a budget of around £1500... I presume cash money... what could you get for THAT as a SECOND bike? And what is out there in that budget? Or topped up with a bit of bank loan?

Look at the big picture.

If you are going to use credit, buying cheaper small bike, on it, minimises the premium you pay for it, and compared to buying one big, new expensive bike, almost certainly save 'enough' you could for similar money buy 2nd hand big bike, and save more, NOT cranking up the commuter miles on the thing, or paying the extra for +commuting and commuter miles on the insurance.

No reason you cant have it ALL or certainly a large chunk of it, if you are prepared to bend the compromises to your favour....

I mean, what's the Glass's guide price on a three or four year old Z750? MCN suggest around £2.5K....

Whats the monthly on the zero percent Z1000? (Colchester Kwak? Webby keeps tripping out on me on that one, so I cant check details. Often the 0% deals are only available if you put down a hefty, possibly 50% deposit/trade in, and over shorter, 2 or 3 year plan. so what would it cost you in real world money?

£10K, over 3years, give or take £1000 deposit? It's likely the thick end of £300 a month.....

Your £1500 would get you a 3/4-year old YBR for hack duty.... and you could run the thing into the ground for 3 years, when you could chuck it away and it would owe you nothing; having saved more than it cost in the depreciation on a brand new bike, before looking at credit charges or working the sums on the running costs.

£3K on a bank loan, at what, 25% to buy a four year old z750.... maybe £100 a month.... you'd save more not having to put + commuting on the insurance, and more still keeping maintenance costs down limiting miles to those just for fun.... and STILL after 3 years be quids in compared to the new bike depreciation on a z1000.

Brings us back to the talk with SWMBO.... where its certainly worth a try as an opening gambit... If you can convince her of the scheme in principle.... you certainly have bargaining power to convince her that a 750 AND a 125 or other cheap small displacement commuter would be even better......

But, its back to the toy or transport dilemma... A-N-D.. not trying to piggy-back them.

IF you work the numbers and the compromises to best effect, you could have the 'transport' in one bike, and the 'toy' in another, and get most from both, and find some savings along the way.

BUT... I am synical of 'free' credit.. and even if it really is, then buying new you are still paying that big chunk of new bike depreciation, and bigger, newer and more expensive the bike, more that is going to be, less you stand to 'save'.. lile I started you dont save by spending, you save by NOT spending.....

And, you can do an awful lot with very little, if you are prepared to work a bit at it; and in that older, cheaper bikes can really be milked for the benefits.... limiting the miles on each, limits the costs, and defeats the one major advantage of a new bike in the reliability stakes... which often catch you out begging more expensive dealer done servicing...

And it IS possible to run a small fleet of bikes as, or more cheaply than one newer one, or one average family car... or I'd be taking the bus every where!

Crickey, for the likely monthlies on that z1000, you could probably afford to run a cheap hack car, AND a lightweight commuter bike, AND a 750-1000 road bike AND still fund a season running a dedicated comper for Trials or Enduro or a track-day special, or whatever!!!!

You were looking for inspiration; so how about an old ZX6R? You can pick up a scruffy example for under a grand; and you have a very useful track day toy or clubbie comper, AND enough over to buy a banger of a car to run to and from work and haul it to events, if you have access to works van for that, even better.

A DT125, or KMX or even a 4-stroke XR125; leave it on knoblies, it'll get you to and from work, and you can explore some unsurfaced trails for fun between times.vWith a little massaging you could probably afford both, pretty much without having to find credit to do so, and save money along the way.

Chasing the Z1000 suggestion? already mentioned the cheaper, and I suspect significantly cheaper to insure Z750; but alternatives in that arena. Well, you can pick up an old ZZR1100 for under a grand these days, even a CBR1100 for around £1500 if you want big speed and long haul-ability.

And just because they are old, doesn't mean they are so likely to be knackered. Could be, but use wits when buying. Remember, these days more 'Big-Bikes' are the 'toys', pampered on the maintenance, coseted in cosy garages, and seeing only occassional sunny day miles, where 125's and the 'sensible' commuter twins much more often have to work for thier living and dont age well. There are an awful lot of bikes out there, in thier 20's that in that world are in better shape than many that haven't made a decade, and are 'cheap' simply because they are no longer in the brochures.

The original Z1/Z900/Z1000/Z1100 UJM muscle bike, that inspired the modern Z750/1000 is probably a bit out of the price league; good Z1 is probably more than a brand new Z1000! But; the little brother Z650, is a sweet little bike, you can pick up a very nice example of for around £1500 as a 'practical classic' and there's plenty of other's of similar ilk from the Suzuki GS's through to and it does beg some thought, a Yam FJ1200... which neatly bridges the old school muscle bikes and more contemprary super-tourers.... and good examples of them are 3 year old YBR money, and classic insurance eligible. JUST for inspiration.

The Honda CB1000 is the direct contender to the Z1000, and you can pick them up pretty cheaply these days; maybe under £2K, you almost have the cash to buy outright. then there's the Fazer 1000, which many suggest is the better bike, and has been around long enough for there to be planty on offer for sensible money, in the £3K region.

Save the cost killer overheads and miles NOT commuting on one, saving it for the week-end; those savings could easily offset price of something like a Yamaha RXS100 for the commuter grind, which could still be a giggle.

For ultimate miser miling the trusty old Honda CD200 Benly, if you can find a decent one, thats not been run into the ground, or snapped up by a geeknick with ideas of cafe racers with knoblies before you get to it' these things rarely command much more than £500, are cheaper to insure than even a 125, have 125 like maintenance costs, and just that bit more 'balls' to keep up with traffic... 15bhp isn't going to set the world on fire, but they do have that antique quality of 'low down grunt' in sufficient quantity to make do with just a four speed 'box!

That notion drags up the suggestion of the GN250 single, that with it's 4v head is a very curiouse device, with it's slightly cruiserified 'US' styling but a rather spritely 20bhp; or other 250-L-Plate era or derivative 'big tiddler' commuters; which can be real steal 'bargains' and a hoot to ride with the right mind-set, and you avoid either nostalgia resto's and run into the ground death traps held to gether with gaffer tape and good wishes!

Mentioned my 'hack' CB750 retro.... For £1500? It's not a Z1000, but its a conventional upright street-bike. You'd have the pick of the crop at that money, and if you were prepared to take something a little more tatty, £500 would get you something 'useful'. Alternative, but a tad more expensive would be Kawasaki's 750 Zephr, and if a half decent one came along, the cheaper, smaller 550. Any of these could be picked up for less than a pre-abused 125 Learner Legal, and be cheaper to insure, and potentially as frugal on fuel.... As sock, thier all-round capability is brilliant, they are do-it all bikes, that might serve in either role as week-end toy come tourer or as every day commuter hack, or both. As said, mine is pure toy, and I 'all in' costs me around £500 a year, including fuel, for around 3ooo miles of just for fun miles.

Yamaha's offering to that arena was the XJ600 divvy, of which I think far too many have been run into the ground as DAS Learner's or post DAS hacks, along with the Bandit.. though could still be worth a thought, especially if a tify one came along at sensible, sub £800 money... BUT, notion chucks up the 900 Diversion, as a very strong contender. the old XJ9 was a favoirite in its own lunch-time, offering that bit over the 750's without the bulk of the litres; and shaft drive convenience. Later life 900divvies are a very useful all-round motorcycle that again, and you needn't break the bank to buy one.

Something like that could easily earn its keep in multiplicity of roles, along side or instead of a car or another bike or bikes!

Its all in how you choose to cut the compromises, BUT key is in seperating Toy and Transport and not trying to piggy-back everything into a camel of a compromise, one vehicle that must do it all, and looking far and wide at what's on offer, and not clamping the compromises on presumptions and predjudices before you start.

Hmmmm.... XJ900..... started giving me oy-dee-uz, that has, now I've mentioned it!!!!! But, take the inspiration where you will.... and dont discount anything before you start... like I say, even a YBR could still offer something to make a plan work, and be a useful part of the overall solution and offer something for the effort.... if you fit decent tyres, that is!
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'
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