police profiling minorities.

[wristjob]

today at ladybower cafe there was a gang of police types incuding 2 camera vans a couple of marked cars and a couple of marked bikes and 2 unmarked cars patroling snake pass.
they were stopping ALL motorcyles and doing the "papers please"in a gestapo style.
on site bike check ,tyres,lights,plate,exhaust etc.
running the rider through the database to see if wanted for rainpal abuse.
i dont know what they were doing if they found anything wrong.
i found it annoying as i am for the most part a law biding citizen.
are they allowed to just pick on people at random?
is there anything in real law that would allow me to tell them to do one?
as one of my guilty pleasures is watching you tube vids of the free men in a conveyance getting bashed up by the police.




TLDR;
can i refuse to be stopped and quizzed by the police?

[Fisty]

[zark]

[ZX-7R]

Plod can pretty much do what they like.If you are legal and ain't committed an offence you will pretty much be okay.

Unless you are black of course.
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Current Bike - 2000 ZX-7R

[wristjob]

[TaffyTDM]

[kgm]

It's a week of action regarding motorcycle safety this week in some places. Happens every spring.

You must stop if required to do so by a constable in uniform (S163 RTA 1888). They require no reason other than the fact that you are driving a motor vehicle on a road. You can also be required to produce a driving license and certificate of insurance (if you don't have it with you the likely outcome is an HO/RT1 form requiring you to produce it at a police office within 7 days). Related to this you can be required to provide your name and address, and in certain circumstances date of birth (S164. & 165 RTA 1988). If they have reasonable grounds to suspect an offence has been committed then they can also require your date of birth, place of birth and nationality in most cases (in Scotland at least, I'm not sure about the rest of the UK. S13 CPSA 1995 refers).

In any case these check points are a crap gig and the cops themselves probably don't want to be there. If they've been at it a while they'll probably be a little grumpy and being awkward will only make them more so so there's little to be gained by it generally. It's frustrating to be stopped in these circumstances - I've been there a couple of times however it's generally over pretty quickly without issues when you cooperate. Also if you act like a wank it'll encourage them to go over the bike with a fine tooth pick. They're still subject to normal human emotions after all.

[Vracktal]

Yup, can't remember where I saw the article but I believe the yearly motorcyclist day of rope motorcyclist safety awareness campaign week is upon us again, just in time for the nice weather.

The police have already posted this year's snuff porn piece as well which usually heralds it beginning.
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2007 BMW R1200R: On road
2009 BMW G650X Challenge: On road
1975 Norton Commando 850: Off road, awaiting recommissioning

[ZX-7R]

[wristjob]

[ThatDippyTwat]

It's why I avoid the usual places on Zombie Jesus weekend. North Wales police are not exactly known for being happy with lots of visiting motorcycles at the best of times, and they usually crawl out from under rocks in force this weekend. I'm more productive working on a bike at home than arguing with a copper who think's he can do anything he damn well pleases.
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'98 VFR800 (touring) - '12 VFR800 Crosrunner (Commuting) - '01 KDX220 (Big Green Antisocial Machine)

[Teflon-Mike]

I had this argument with a retired police inspector at a dinner party once....

In principle, you MUST stop if indicated to do so by a UNIFORMED police officer.... anyone else, in 'theory' you may happily ignore.

That uniformed officer 'should'... and that 'should' is where practice starts to depart drastically from principle.... but that officer 'should' have 'reasonable cause' to "impede your progress on the queens highway"... which is the counter to a uniformed coppa's right to stop you, because again, 'in principle' impeding traffic on the queens highway', is an offence... dating back to the dick-Turpin era, and what they hung most highway-men for, in fact, as they couldn't specifically prove 'theft' if they caught them before they actually stole anything or shot any-one!

Without 'reasonable cause', actually for an awful lot, a police officer actually has very very few 'rights' above and beyond any other civilian to do very much about anything at all.. let alone stop some-one driving along the road.... which without reasonable cause IS actually an offence on their part.

Hence, if stopped, first question to uniformed police officer, should be "Hello, officer, why have you stopped me?". They 'should', in principle, answer you and provide their 'reasonable cause'....

"Well, maybe you could tell me why you THINK I have stopped you?" is not an answer; that's fishing, but lots fall for it.... how you handle that is up to you... but best advice I can offer is stay shtumm... you have the right to remain silent... right up to the point that they tell you what they think you done wrong, and beyond, if you so wish! And its THEIR job to tell you what the crime is, not your's to admit guilt before you even start and save them doing their job of deterring and detecting crime, and providing evidence of that to the courts! Remember, being 'stupid' or 'ignorant' is in itself not illegal..... or, err.. I think I'll take my own advice ans stay shtumm at that point.. (although I DID at a party many years ago, get away with refusing police entry to the premises whilst holding back a chap yelling "Kill the Pigs" at the door, with the line, "Err, assaulting a police officer may be an offence, but insulting one one ISN'T, so, unless I invite you in, or you have due cause or a warrant, GOOD NIGHT!" and shut the door!)

"Just a routine stop-check" is NOT strictly a 'reasonable cause'..
"We are doing an awareness campaign (or other 'initiative') and are stopping drivers to ask/talk/suggest" is not strictly a reasonable cause.
Other similar 'reasons' of that nature to justify 'random stop checks' are NOT strictly reasonable cause. And you are entirely at liberty to respond "Well, sorry officer, I am trying to get to {wherever} by {some time} and I really dont want to be late or exceed the speed limit, so sorry, but no, I would NOT like to stop and chat to you about your {whatever initiative offered} and would like to be on my way, as is my legal right, to NOT have my progress illegally impeded on the queens highway......" at your own risk.... that they will suggest your 'evasion' of their 'initiative' made them suspect you were hiding something and that then offered them notionally reasonable cause.... like I say, principle and practice are only loosely related....

Which is where my ex-inspector dinner companion started, as he imbibed more and more malt, to get rather more agitated, insisting that the police DO have the right to stop any-one anywhere, any time, any place for whatever they like...... because practice is subject to application and interpretation, and exploiting the ONE power they have to stop traffic, they can pretty much side step the matter of actually having to have a proper actually reasonable reason to do so.... they can have an utterly unreasonable one, and then fish for all they are worth....

I was actually 'stopped'... no, that is an understatement.. three, yes THREE police cars 'Sweeney swooped' me pulling into a petrol station for a pack of fags one night, many years ago.... when I greeted them with "Hello, officer, why have you stopped me?" the conversation got a little terse, and the officer replied, "We thought this car may be stolen"... told "No. No it's not. Has some-one reported MY car stolen?" resulted in a lot of stammering, and eventually "Well it's an XR2" (at the time one of the most stolen cars in the country... why I drove one... it was 'cheap' and I had a lot of NCB to let me insure it, which few could!)... as I recall it was about 11pm on a Saturday night, and I REALLY needed a fag, "Yes, I know that... I bought it. Says so on the log book" or similar glib retort was my reply (whilst biting back the urge to offer the sarcasm, "Yeah! Well spotted! I wouldn't have spotted that in BIG letters on the boot and the doors! I can see you are detective material!").. I recall a distinct pregnant pause and the silent grinding of mental cogs as the coppa thought of a way to progress this interrogation, before he offered, "Well, they get stolen a lot!"... to which I repeated, "Yes, they do."... and returned to listening to the silent cogs of thought, for a while before he added "and its not registered in this town".. I waited for him to continue, but nothing more was forthcoming and the noise of silent grinding mind cogs was becoming painful, so I offered, helpfully, "No, no it isn't"; at this point, a coppa from one of the other cars, who'd blocked in the petrol station exit, walked over to assist his young college and offer respite from his mental anguish.... whilst I waited patiently... and told him that if his unit wasn't needed they were leaving.... It gave the coppa a moment to compose himself, before he carried on, "So what are you doing here?" to which I helpfully replied "Talking to you!"... yeah, my patience was running low and I REALLY needed them cigarettes I'd popped out for! so under such deprivation I broke... "I WAS, visiting a friend, and I ran out of fags. anything else?", the pained expression of anguish and silent grinding of mental cogs returned, to fill a hiatus until he broke and offered "Yes, but you SMILED at us!"

Absolutely true; local school had had a few recent instances of kids setting fire to the porta-cabins, and as I drove past, had spotted a group of youths jump over the fence with what looked like a jerry can, when the cop-car came round the corner.... so I had smiled, thinking that the arsonists would get their comeuppance, NOT that coppa would see me smile and decide to call in a swoop squad to chase ME down!

Moral of the story... Don't smile at the police, if you anomalously are lead to believe they are actually going to do their real job....

I think I was probably still smarting from that one at the dinner-party with the retired inspector, actually...... he was right in practice, but wrong in principle..... but principle matters little when you are out numbered, by blokes with clubs and handcuffs!!

Just remember Ghandi.... passive resistance & obstreperous co-operation...
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My Webby'Tef's-tQ, loads of stuff about my bikes, my Land-Rovers, and the stuff I do with them!
Current Bikes:'Honda VF1000F' ;'CB750F2N' ;'CB125TD ( 6 3 of em!)'; 'Montesa Cota 248'. Learner FAQ's:= 'U want to Ride a Motorbike! Where Do U start?'

[ZX-7R]

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Current Bike - 2000 ZX-7R

[Fisty]

[wristjob]

tef its not hung its hanged when referring to an execution.

[jjdugen]

Plenty of them about yesterday, all the way from Mancs up to Wharfedale. The weather was so crap their pickings must have been thin. Saw most of them huddling in the car parks of the various MacD's we stopped in to dry off.
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The CBR900RR has been sold. Aprilia Falco worms its way into my heart.
Try Soi 23 on Amazon for a good read.... Self promotion? Moi?

[thx1138]

[ZX-7R]

[Rogerborg]

[Keir]

i don't get why people get so worked up about being stopped by police. its my bike, I have tax, insurance, mot and wasn't riding like too much of a dick generally - If I was and I got caught, well I knew the risk when I did it. they can inspect my bike, check out my licence, check my aftermarket exhaust is notified to my insurance co or whatever.
in the times ive been stopped ive been away again in about 2 minutes. hardly a massive deal
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Current : '08 Yamaha FZ1s
Previous: '99 Honda CBR 600FX, 03 ZX636 B1H, 99 Fazer 600 (red), 02 GSX-R 600 K2, 00 SV650s (red), 2008 ZX10R, 97 Bandit 1200N, 04 ZX6RR K1H, 04 GSX-R 1000, 98 Fazer 600 (gold), 05 Madness 110 Pit bike, 04 CR125R, 00 SV650s (black), 06 KTM 625 SMC, 99 SRAD 600 track bike, 03 SV650, 98 Bandit 1200N, Bandit 600SY, 03 GSX-R 600 K3, 01 GSX-R 600, 01 Fazer 600 (black), VFR 400 NC30 x3, 78 Honda Dream, 00 Speedfight 50

[Kickstart]

[wristjob]

i was going to stop at the cafe anyway.
they held me up for hardly any time.
i was commiting no crime so had nothing to hide.
i would still like it to be legal to tell them to fuck off.

[wristjob]

i also didnt want them to find the 5kg of columbian bam bam in my back pack.

[Teflon-Mike]

[Enduro Numpty]

I don't feel that I'm targeted by the police any more on the bike as opposed to the car. My problem is that all my recent experience with the police is all negative. The focus on road traffic to the detriment of just about everything else that affects people is not what I pay tax for. Motorcycle theft and aggressive motorcycle theft (armed robbery) is routinely ignored. Generally law abiding people are shafted for the slightest infringement yet the scum are effectively immune. The police hide behind "priorities", "lack of resources", "health and safety". The fact is that it's so much easier to persecute the generally law abiding majority. I ride past a speed trap too quickly they can trace me easily, scum on a stolen bike have no such concerns. Scum in the process of stealing my property, police won't attend yet I'm liable to prosecution if I take matters into my own hands. I don't know who the law and the police are there to serve but it certainly isn't me!