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 Posted: 14:33 - 20 May 2017  Post subject: |
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| Ste wrote: | | Falco wrote: | The market sets the cost at what it thinks it will bear |
The market will correct itself if the price is too high.
Markets are clever like that.  |
Not really. Itchy is correct. This only works if markets operate in a purely free environment. The idea of this is as silly as the idea of pure communism.
Markets are very good at optimizing businesses for short term gain (they can also be pretty good at focused R&D). They are useless for anything longer term and they generally are not self-correcting. For example healthcare in America is a market, yet the cost of drugs is far above that of their nearest neighbour, Canada (which has something much closer to single-payer, a natural distortion on the market). The demand for drugs is rising, why is the cost not dropping to compensate for it? Dead people can't pay anything. It's short term thinking at play.
Markets can be a driving force for innovation, for getting people products and services at reasonable prices, but not if they are unfettered. At that point they descend into price gouging and end up cratering themselves.
| Rogerborg wrote: | Some of it, yes. I'm aware that artists existed before the State started supporting them, which is rather my point - it's not necessary.
I'm referring to the £622 million a year of stolen money that's wasted on stuff that nobody does want to pay for. Oh, plus whatever Al Beeb spunks on cultural propaganda. |
Well that isn't all from taxation, 68 million comes from the national lottery. But people (the judges) do want it, otherwise they wouldn't grant funds for it, no? I would wager the idea is that making sure that only the rich and those willing to live in abject poverty are able to produce art (in its various forms) will cause culture to suffer. The downside of this is that you end up creating a lot of shit (grayson perry anyone?), but this is unavoidable.
A good analogy is university research (ie basic research) vs private (applied) research. There is very little money in basic research, since it won't lead to working products in the near future. Nevertheless it needs to be done for example computers and the internet would not be possible without breakthroughs from state-sponsored funding over the last century+ , yet at the time they had no applications and were doubtless considered legalised thievery and a waste of public money by small state advocates. Insisting that everything has to be self funding and produce results at the time of conception will not yield good results in the long term.
Today's Van gough could be out there working on a grant from the arts council, the price we pay for that is the Tracy Emins. I'd say its a price worth paying, even though I don't get anything even close to enjoyment from the sort of stuff they fund.
| Rogerborg wrote: | What value does anything have except what people are willing to pay for it?
I'm not even sure we're speaking the same language here. What do you mean by "actual" value if it's not the free market price? Who decides that, and why? |
That's the philosophical underpinning of all exchanges. Of course nothing has value beyond that with which we imbue it, my point is that the market price does not really reflect that value, it reflects what people are prepared to pay.
I think I may be off in the philosophical weeds here, but the distinction I am trying to draw is between what the market charges for a product and the valuen the buyer places upon it. A life-saving medicine has great value regardless of cost to someone who needs it. If the market charges £1 or 10 Million, the buyers ability to access the product changes, but the value of it does not. Does that clarify what I am trying to say?
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| Posted: 16:06 - 20 May 2017 Post subject: |
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| Jewlio Rides Again wrote: |
I would vote Corbyn simply because I don't like the police state idea that the witch wants to bring in. The same as when my bosses are saying we should not vote Labour because it affects them, whereas if we vote Tory they will still get their big dividends, and we won't get the big payrises to suit, going off this years review of a measly 5%.
However, I don't like my local liabour candidate, can't think of anything of note they've done. Despite this, they'll get in on a landslide, as usual. |
You do come out with some shite Jewlio.
Did the Tory introduced dividend tax rises pass you by?
Any dividends taken are already tax at corporation tax rate. Now the Tories are also increasing tax on the individual dividend takers.
Basic rate on dividends is now 7.5%, higher rate 32.5% and additional rate at 38.1%. That makes company profits now taxed twice adding up from anywhere from over 25% to over 50%, even for companies with small turnovers. How much do you pay as PAYE again? Add on your employers PAYE too their figure too and then decide who's taxed the most by the Tories.
Directors and dividend holders have taken a huge pay cut whilst you've had a rise, under the Tories.
I stand to be £1500-2000 worse off due to this and I'm in the basic rate bracket.
All this nonsense about Tories looking after the rich is actually the opposite of what's happening, the media are dressing it up the other way.
Tax for the lowest paid has been almost eradicated for most, with considerable NLW increases and raised personal allowances.
It;s the company owners and shareholders who are getting raped.
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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| Posted: 16:28 - 20 May 2017 Post subject: |
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| mpd72 wrote: |
You do come out with some shite Jewlio. |
Exposure to your bullshit is rubbing off on me.
| Quote: | Did the Tory introduced dividend tax rises pass you by?
Any dividends taken are already tax at corporation tax rate. Now the Tories are also increasing tax on the individual dividend takers. |
Corporation tax rates are lower now than they were under Brown.
| Quote: | Basic rate on dividends is now 7.5%, higher rate 32.5% and additional rate at 38.1%. That makes company profits now taxed twice adding up from anywhere from over 25% to over 50%, even for companies with small turnovers. How much do you pay as PAYE again? Add on your employers PAYE too their figure too and then decide who's taxed the most by the Tories. |
I probably pay a similar amount to you, given the self-employment fiddles available.
| Quote: | Directors and dividend holders have taken a huge pay cut whilst you've had a rise, under the Tories.
I stand to be £1500-2000 worse off due to this and I'm in the basic rate bracket.
All this nonsense about Tories looking after the rich is actually the opposite of what's happening, the media are dressing it up the other way. |
That's why the three directors, despite us having a 'tight year' and only getting 5% payrise with no bonus, due to missing out on an (their words) unachievable figure by less than £30k with the majority of our usual work not actually being available this financial year just gone, have just paid themselves double the dividend last year, which is coincidentally about the mark that would basically pay for a house in our area. EACH.
No issues with them rewarding themselves, it's their company and their money after all, but when the 'lean times' don't apply to them, it's a little bit of a joke, considering that a good 75% of our turnover comes from 4 of us, rather than the 2 of them who still come in regularly, and the final one who takes a wage based on who he is.
| Quote: | Tax for the lowest paid has been almost eradicated for most, with considerable NLW increases and raised personal allowances.
It;s the company owners and shareholders who are getting raped. |
Bollocks it is. Someone at the bottom of the pile cannot cut their cloth much further, as they're already at the bottom. Those at the top could easily economise further if they had to.
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| Posted: 16:43 - 20 May 2017 Post subject: |
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| Jewlio Rides Again wrote: | Corporation tax rates are lower now than they were under Brown. |
By nowhere near the level that didvidend tax has been increased.
| Jewlio Rides Again wrote: | I probably pay a similar amount to you, given the self-employment fiddles available. |
Such as? You listen to too much hearsay. Corporation tax is 19%, basic rate PAYE is 20%. I pay 7.5% on top of corp tax for any profit taken out of my business after the first £5K.
| Jewlio Rides Again wrote: | That's why the three directors, despite us having a 'tight year' and only getting 5% payrise with no bonus, due to missing out on an (their words) unachievable figure by less than £30k with the majority of our usual work not actually being available this financial year just gone, have just paid themselves double the dividend last year, which is coincidentally about the mark that would basically pay for a house in our area. EACH. |
Bollocks, you were at this shareholders meeting where the dividends were discussed were you? You do come out with some shite.
| Jewlio Rides Again wrote: | Bollocks it is. Someone at the bottom of the pile cannot cut their cloth much further, as they're already at the bottom. Those at the top could easily economise further if they had to. |
We've been through this a few times. The lowest earners are at least 20% better off in money terms than under Labour. Remember you made a tit of yourself trying to pretend fuel cost increases had wiped this out?
BTW, pump prices are lower now than they were when the Tories took over.
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| Posted: 18:13 - 20 May 2017 Post subject: |
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| JonB wrote: |
those brought up through the new Labour years are more likely to vote Corbyn as the sense of entitlement and "big government" is so entrenched.
|
Sorry but this is more total nonsense from you.
During New Labour's years I was 9 to 19 years old, so the perfect age for being moulded into one of these people you speak of.
I have no recollection of any sense of 'the state' or 'entitlement' in my youth. I also don't remember any major transition from Tory life to Labour life in 1997. Everything stayed the same. No change in what I saw to be 'the state', or any sense of 'entitlement'. What big changes did Labour make that I should have noticed? I don't remember anything being suddenly nationalised, or a big roll-out of a new benefits system full of freebies for the workshy. The national minimum wage was something, I suppose, but I'd actually be interested to see what would happen if it were scrapped. Could balance out quite a few things. Tony Blair also introduced tuition fees, which is the opposite of creating entitlement.
I remember being quite disillusioned by politics in the year or so leading up to the recession, when I first started to take notice of current affairs in general, and was totally indifferent to Labour losing power because it all seemed like much of the same to me back then anyway.
I also worked part time from the age of 15, paid my own way including rent money (~£250/month) to my parents from age 17 onward, turned my part time job into a full time one as soon as I left school, and distinctly remember being quite disgusted by my mate who would claim weekly dole money for beer and called it 'getting paid' as if signing on was a job for him. Funniest thing is his political opinions are now decidedly right wing! Ha!
So I'm going to have to ask you to tell me what you think New Labour specifically did in those years that turned myself and my fellow late-90s youths into the workshy, state-loving, over-entitled Labour voters that you assume we all now are.
And going back to the point of my right wing mate who claimed dole money for beer. Another avid right winger I know is my gran. I spent a year living at her house when I got back from working in Australia. I had a fair whack of savings so didn't need to find work, and spent the time self-studying, preparing for uni to try and sort my life out. During that time, she continually told me I should go and sign on to the dole, because in her opinion the money was there to be taken so I might as well get some. This is from a right winger! Ha! Burdening the taxpayer is not only in the remit of lefties, it seems. |
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Jewlio Rides Again LLB
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| Posted: 18:41 - 20 May 2017 Post subject: |
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| mpd72 wrote: |
By nowhere near the level that didvidend tax has been increased.
|
Call it what you will, I have no doubt whatsoever that they'll be getting the majority of it without paying the tax they should.
| Quote: |
Such as? You listen to too much hearsay. Corporation tax is 19%, basic rate PAYE is 20%. I pay 7.5% on top of corp tax for any profit taken out of my business after the first £5K.
|
It almost sounds like you would be better off working for someone else... So why don't you?
| Quote: |
Bollocks, you were at this shareholders meeting where the dividends were discussed were you? You do come out with some shite.
|
The perks of working in a small business where the day to day accounts is a friend means when we were all shafted over the rise and bonus means we all found out exactly what they slapped themselves on the back to the tune of. I'll give you a clue, last financial year they took less than 50 out as their bonus, this year it was not far off 100.
| Quote: |
We've been through this a few times. The lowest earners are at least 20% better off in money terms than under Labour. Remember you made a tit of yourself trying to pretend fuel cost increases had wiped this out?
BTW, pump prices are lower now than they were when the Tories took over. |
And we're supposed to be grateful that the price of petrol isn't as much as it was whilst everything else has gone up in price? When I have the time and inclination, I'll actually put something together to compare it, just so we can see how much of shit you are.
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Posted: 18:44 - 20 May 2017  Post subject: |
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| Lord Percy wrote: | | JonB wrote: |
those brought up through the new Labour years are more likely to vote Corbyn as the sense of entitlement and "big government" is so entrenched.
|
Sorry but this is more total nonsense from you.
During New Labour's years I was 9 to 19 years old, so the perfect age for being moulded into one of these people you speak of.
I have no recollection of any sense of 'the state' or 'entitlement' in my youth. I also don't remember any major transition from Tory life to Labour life in 1997. Everything stayed the same. No change in what I saw to be 'the state', or any sense of 'entitlement'. What big changes did Labour make that I should have noticed? I don't remember anything being suddenly nationalised, or a big roll-out of a new benefits system full of freebies for the workshy. The national minimum wage was something, I suppose, but I'd actually be interested to see what would happen if it were scrapped. Could balance out quite a few things. Tony Blair also introduced tuition fees, which is the opposite of creating entitlement.
I remember being quite disillusioned by politics in the year or so leading up to the recession, when I first started to take notice of current affairs in general, and was totally indifferent to Labour losing power because it all seemed like much of the same to me back then anyway.
I also worked part time from the age of 15, paid my own way including rent money (~£250/month) to my parents from age 17 onward, turned my part time job into a full time one as soon as I left school, and distinctly remember being quite disgusted by my mate who would claim weekly dole money for beer and called it 'getting paid' as if signing on was a job for him. Funniest thing is his political opinions are now decidedly right wing! Ha!
So I'm going to have to ask you to tell me what you think New Labour specifically did in those years that turned myself and my fellow late-90s youths into the workshy, state-loving, over-entitled Labour voters that you assume we all now are.
And going back to the point of my right wing mate who claimed dole money for beer. Another avid right winger I know is my gran. I spent a year living at her house when I got back from working in Australia. I had a fair whack of savings so didn't need to find work, and spent the time self-studying, preparing for uni to try and sort my life out. During that time, she continually told me I should go and sign on to the dole, because in her opinion the money was there to be taken so I might as well get some. This is from a right winger! Ha! Burdening the taxpayer is not only in the remit of lefties, it seems. |
You do realise you are preaching to somebody who was also aged 9 when New Labour came into power? Got the £25k debt T shirt with 9% graduate tax out of my wages...
Collectively the generation were failed. All told to go to uni to open doors - if it wasn't for the fact I found my feet in an industry where my skills seem to work well. I could quite easily be yet another graduate stacking shelves in Tesco.
That is not the Tories fault.
Yet I only have to look on social media and a lot of my peers are raving Labour/corbynites. Graduates, turning 30 this year who still spend the weekend getting smashed. Wasting time at pointless protests - yet doing zero to actually better their own situation and blaming the Tories for austerity. Reality check, folks - the deficit is still £50bn+.
The difference in my OPINION (remember, this is what a forum is for) is that our generation have an expectation that we should all own a house at 30 etc etc with very little effort. In a society of instant gratification - there is little drive to actually achieve their dreams.
My dad had to work 3 job during the late '80's to keep a roof over my parents head as interest rates went to 15%+. All I had to do to buy a house in bristol was save up 1/3rd of my annual salary to buy a three bed house on an interest rate fixed for 5 years at 2.84%. We don't have it that bad. We just think we do. No political party has the answer to their problems - it's all in their head.
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| Posted: 18:47 - 20 May 2017 Post subject: |
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| Falco wrote: | Not really. Itchy is correct. This only works if markets operate in a purely free environment. The idea of this is as silly as the idea of pure communism. |
So the problem is governments meddling with markets?
| Falco wrote: | Markets are very good at optimizing businesses for short term gain (they can also be pretty good at focused R&D). They are useless for anything longer term and they generally are not self-correcting. |
If their aims are only short term then that's what will be delivered to market and even then, it'll only work if people want what's on offer.
If they don't self correct then the product will crash and burn in way not unlike what has happened with rainpal.
| Falco wrote: | For example healthcare in America is a market, yet the cost of drugs is far above that of their nearest neighbour, Canada (which has something much closer to single-payer, a natural distortion on the market). The demand for drugs is rising, why is the cost not dropping to compensate for it? Dead people can't pay anything. It's short term thinking at play. |
If the demand for a drug (singular) rises then over time yes, the cost will fall but it would be naive short term thinking to expect such changes to happen quickly.
| Falco wrote: | Markets can be a driving force for innovation, for getting people products and services at reasonable prices, but not if they are unfettered. At that point they descend into price gouging and end up cratering themselves. |
Earlier it was markets "only works if markets operate in a purely free environment" but now markets are only a driving force for innovation if they're not unfettered?  |
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| Posted: 18:58 - 20 May 2017 Post subject: |
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Gas the government?
I'm onboard with that.
lol jk, GCHQ.
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| Posted: 19:04 - 20 May 2017 Post subject: |
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| Lord Percy wrote: | | JonB wrote: |
those brought up through the new Labour years are more likely to vote Corbyn as the sense of entitlement and "big government" is so entrenched.
|
Sorry but this is more total nonsense from you.
During New Labour's years I was 9 to 19 years old, so the perfect age for being moulded into one of these people you speak of.
I have no recollection of any sense of 'the state' or 'entitlement' in my youth. I also don't remember any major transition from Tory life to Labour life in 1997. Everything stayed the same. No change in what I saw to be 'the state', or any sense of 'entitlement'. What big changes did Labour make that I should have noticed? I don't remember anything being suddenly nationalised, or a big roll-out of a new benefits system full of freebies for the workshy. The national minimum wage was something, I suppose, but I'd actually be interested to see what would happen if it were scrapped. Could balance out quite a few things. Tony Blair also introduced tuition fees, which is the opposite of creating entitlement.
I remember being quite disillusioned by politics in the year or so leading up to the recession, when I first started to take notice of current affairs in general, and was totally indifferent to Labour losing power because it all seemed like much of the same to me back then anyway.
I also worked part time from the age of 15, paid my own way including rent money (~£250/month) to my parents from age 17 onward, turned my part time job into a full time one as soon as I left school, and distinctly remember being quite disgusted by my mate who would claim weekly dole money for beer and called it 'getting paid' as if signing on was a job for him. Funniest thing is his political opinions are now decidedly right wing! Ha!
So I'm going to have to ask you to tell me what you think New Labour specifically did in those years that turned myself and my fellow late-90s youths into the workshy, state-loving, over-entitled Labour voters that you assume we all now are.
And going back to the point of my right wing mate who claimed dole money for beer. Another avid right winger I know is my gran. I spent a year living at her house when I got back from working in Australia. I had a fair whack of savings so didn't need to find work, and spent the time self-studying, preparing for uni to try and sort my life out. During that time, she continually told me I should go and sign on to the dole, because in her opinion the money was there to be taken so I might as well get some. This is from a right winger! Ha! Burdening the taxpayer is not only in the remit of lefties, it seems. |
Who will you be voting for?
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| Posted: 19:07 - 20 May 2017 Post subject: |
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| Jewlio Rides Again wrote: | | mpd72 wrote: |
By nowhere near the level that didvidend tax has been increased.
|
Call it what you will, I have no doubt whatsoever that they'll be getting the majority of it without paying the tax they should.
| Quote: |
Such as? You listen to too much hearsay. Corporation tax is 19%, basic rate PAYE is 20%. I pay 7.5% on top of corp tax for any profit taken out of my business after the first £5K.
|
It almost sounds like you would be better off working for someone else... So why don't you?
| Quote: |
Bollocks, you were at this shareholders meeting where the dividends were discussed were you? You do come out with some shite.
|
The perks of working in a small business where the day to day accounts is a friend means when we were all shafted over the rise and bonus means we all found out exactly what they slapped themselves on the back to the tune of. I'll give you a clue, last financial year they took less than 50 out as their bonus, this year it was not far off 100.
| Quote: |
We've been through this a few times. The lowest earners are at least 20% better off in money terms than under Labour. Remember you made a tit of yourself trying to pretend fuel cost increases had wiped this out?
BTW, pump prices are lower now than they were when the Tories took over. |
And we're supposed to be grateful that the price of petrol isn't as much as it was whilst everything else has gone up in price? When I have the time and inclination, I'll actually put something together to compare it, just so we can see how much of shit you are. |
More unfounded incorrect guesswork shite. I really can't be arsed to respond to your cobblers.
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| Lord Percy |
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Lord Percy
World Chat Champion
Joined: 03 Aug 2012
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| Ste |
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Ste
Not Work Safe
Joined: 01 Sep 2002
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| JonB |
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JonB
Afraid of Mileage
Joined: 03 Jun 2004
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| Posted: 19:58 - 20 May 2017 Post subject: |
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I don't think you can read anything into that. Most people who vote Tory won't be on Facebook (a requirement to vote on that site) or looking for online opinion polls.
Given that Labour always do appallingly in the constituency I live in, but are currently at 91% on that site says a lot.
____________________
Be careful whose advice you buy, but, be patient with those who supply it. Advice is a form of nostalgia, dispensing it is a way of fishing the past from the disposal, wiping it off, painting over the ugly parts and recycling it for more than it?s worth. |
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Old Thread Alert!
The last post was made 6 years, 339 days ago. Instead of replying here, would creating a new thread be more useful? |
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